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Glossy BW

Glossy BW

2012-08-11 by pdesmidt tds.net

Since I'm going to have to start from scratch with my 4880, I'm going
to investigate some ink sets developed since I settled on Paul's
Carbon-6 ink on Epson's Hot Press Natural awhile ago.
While it's an excellent combination, I still long for a glossier
approach for some images. This brings me to Paul's newer
glossy-compatible ink sets, such as his 6K + LC & LM and   5K + LC,
LM, & Y ink sets.  In particular, do they show gloss differential or
bronzing?  What papers work best with them?

Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-11 by Paul

I must say that for casual prints -- cards, snapshots, even 13" panoramas dry-mounted and intended for display (but not for sale; these are gifts) -- I use the 1400 with the standard color ink arrangement.  With a half Black Only, half LM,LC, and Y QTR profile for B&W and the standard printer "Color Controls" for color, the B&W and color prints Claria & Noritsu dyes are capable of are, visually, outstanding -- no pigment artifacts and amazing on metallic paper. (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Claria-BW.pdf)  I don't consider these prints fine art due to longevity issues.  (I don't spray these prints.  Wilhelm appears to have found the colors react to differently to sprays that the color shifts increased.) I have also noted that I could not use the dye approach in the gallery due to color constancy/metamerism issues.  But one is only aware of this if they are next to a carbon print or some other reference that does not exhibit the problems.  With Noritsu dyes (now occasionally available on eBay for rather cheap), this system will scale to any Epson printer.  The dyes worked fine in the 4000.

That said, I think for those who want their B&W to be in the "fine art" league, the best way to go is to use the maximum amount & number of carbon pigments and the toughest color toners available, if any.

I have suggested to MIS that their glossy carbons plus standard LM and LC (open source) makes the most flexible B&W inkset that is capable of being quite economical (their's would use MIS LM and LC), while also giving those who want the best longevity that option.  Note that on Arches paper, MIS's glossy carbon is less than 1 Lab B unit warmer than Eboni.  So, my favorite medium -- carbon on Arches uncoated cotton paper -- would still be available.  In fact, so little color is needed to make a visually neutral print with this combination that I might actually go that route.

I think all pigments exhibit some of the bronzing and gloss differential on "glossy" papers, but the MIS carbons seem to be the best in this regard.  With the sepia tone (100% carbon) on Museo Silver Rag that I use for the museum restorations, I see no artifacts at all.  Looking at some Red River Polar Pearl prints, I can see that the inked areas have a reflection that is slightly bronze compared to the paper base.  Interestingly, the satin seems to exhibit more than the glossy.  For areas that are inked, the level and color of the bronzing seems fairly uniform.  So, what it amounts to is a slight bronzing with it's visibility mostly at the paper white, gloss differential end of the scale.  

I don't have enough experience with the baryta papers to know how they look.

Overall, my take on the bronzing is that it's mild enough to not be concerned with.  I have not considered using glop at all. 

In fact, I currently have a yellow ink in the 4000, thinking that the brightness of most glossy papers (particularly the borders) is more of an issue than bronzing or gloss differential.  I've been trying to match prints in a display area where my main product is the carbon on natural matte paper, and that has turned out to be a major challenge.  I'm not sure it works at all.  If I were not displaying prints side-by-side, I'd ignore the yellow ink idea.

Of course, the MIS glossy carbons are not as clog-free as the dilute Eboni-6 inks.  (Eboni MK, being a high load ink, will clog.)  I do try to run the 4000 weekly with these inks.  When left for several weeks unused, it took several cleaning cycles to get it going again.  The good news is that I don't have to agitate the MIS glossy carbons.  In my centrifuge tests they were more stable than Epson gray inks.

I think my bottom line is that the 6K + LM and LC makes the most flexible B&W inkset that I'd be comfortable with.  If I had one printer and needed to do matte and glossy, with total tone control, that would be the approach.  It's a serious contender.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Since I'm going to have to start from scratch with my 4880, I'm going
> to investigate some ink sets developed since I settled on Paul's
> Carbon-6 ink on Epson's Hot Press Natural awhile ago.
> While it's an excellent combination, I still long for a glossier
> approach for some images. This brings me to Paul's newer
> glossy-compatible ink sets, such as his 6K + LC & LM and   5K + LC,
> LM, & Y ink sets.  In particular, do they show gloss differential or
> bronzing?  What papers work best with them?
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-11 by pdesmidt tds.net

Paul,  thank you for the very clear and detailed response!

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Paul <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I must say that for casual prints -- cards, snapshots, even 13" panoramas
> dry-mounted and intended for display (but not for sale; these are gifts) --
> I use the 1400 with the standard color ink arrangement. With a half Black
> Only, half LM,LC, and Y QTR profile for B&W and the standard printer "Color
> Controls" for color, the B&W and color prints Claria & Noritsu dyes are
> capable of are, visually, outstanding -- no pigment artifacts and amazing
> on metallic paper. (See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Claria-BW.pdf) I don't consider
> these prints fine art due to longevity issues. (I don't spray these prints.
> Wilhelm appears to have found the colors react to differently to sprays
> that the color shifts increased.) I have also noted that I could not use
> the dye approach in the gallery due to color constancy/metamerism issues.
> But one is only aware of this if they are next to a carbon print or some
> other reference that does not exhibit the problems. With Noritsu dyes (now
> occasionally available on eBay for rather cheap), this system will scale to
> any Epson printer. The dyes worked fine in the 4000.
>
> That said, I think for those who want their B&W to be in the "fine art"
> league, the best way to go is to use the maximum amount & number of carbon
> pigments and the toughest color toners available, if any.
>
> I have suggested to MIS that their glossy carbons plus standard LM and LC
> (open source) makes the most flexible B&W inkset that is capable of being
> quite economical (their's would use MIS LM and LC), while also giving those
> who want the best longevity that option. Note that on Arches paper, MIS's
> glossy carbon is less than 1 Lab B unit warmer than Eboni. So, my favorite
> medium -- carbon on Arches uncoated cotton paper -- would still be
> available. In fact, so little color is needed to make a visually neutral
> print with this combination that I might actually go that route.
>
> I think all pigments exhibit some of the bronzing and gloss differential
> on "glossy" papers, but the MIS carbons seem to be the best in this regard.
> With the sepia tone (100% carbon) on Museo Silver Rag that I use for the
> museum restorations, I see no artifacts at all. Looking at some Red River
> Polar Pearl prints, I can see that the inked areas have a reflection that
> is slightly bronze compared to the paper base. Interestingly, the satin
> seems to exhibit more than the glossy. For areas that are inked, the level
> and color of the bronzing seems fairly uniform. So, what it amounts to is a
> slight bronzing with it's visibility mostly at the paper white, gloss
> differential end of the scale.
>
> I don't have enough experience with the baryta papers to know how they
> look.
>
> Overall, my take on the bronzing is that it's mild enough to not be
> concerned with. I have not considered using glop at all.
>
> In fact, I currently have a yellow ink in the 4000, thinking that the
> brightness of most glossy papers (particularly the borders) is more of an
> issue than bronzing or gloss differential. I've been trying to match prints
> in a display area where my main product is the carbon on natural matte
> paper, and that has turned out to be a major challenge. I'm not sure it
> works at all. If I were not displaying prints side-by-side, I'd ignore the
> yellow ink idea.
>
> Of course, the MIS glossy carbons are not as clog-free as the dilute
> Eboni-6 inks. (Eboni MK, being a high load ink, will clog.) I do try to run
> the 4000 weekly with these inks. When left for several weeks unused, it
> took several cleaning cycles to get it going again. The good news is that I
> don't have to agitate the MIS glossy carbons. In my centrifuge tests they
> were more stable than Epson gray inks.
>
> I think my bottom line is that the 6K + LM and LC makes the most flexible
> B&W inkset that I'd be comfortable with. If I had one printer and needed to
> do matte and glossy, with total tone control, that would be the approach.
> It's a serious contender.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net"
> <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
> >
> > Since I'm going to have to start from scratch with my 4880, I'm going
> > to investigate some ink sets developed since I settled on Paul's
> > Carbon-6 ink on Epson's Hot Press Natural awhile ago.
> > While it's an excellent combination, I still long for a glossier
> > approach for some images. This brings me to Paul's newer
> > glossy-compatible ink sets, such as his 6K + LC & LM and 5K + LC,
> > LM, & Y ink sets. In particular, do they show gloss differential or
> > bronzing? What papers work best with them?
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-12 by David Keenan

I rarely butt into these conversations but these this all sounds SO
complicated, no offense to Paul, et al.

Why aren't you just buying one of the glossy compatible Piezography
inksets? Put in the inks, use of of the available curves (or have one made
if you use an exotic paper), and make great prints with NO, NONE gloss
differential.

All this code like 5K+LC, etc. sounds like stuff for scientists, not
photographers wanting to make exhibition quality prints.
.
Dave.

--
See my 2012 Picture A Week (PAW) Gallery
<http://www.dlkphotography.com/paw>originally begun in 2007.
Please join my photography mailing
list<http://dlkphotography.us2.list-manage2.com/subscribe?u=3d9dfbb5b18c4817532a37b90&id=4dd441d8fe>
.
Become a collector. Purchase selected prints here <http://bit.ly/JHfpMb>.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-12 by Paul

MIS also has blended, monotone, glossy compatible inksets. They're fine for many applications, but for my work, I stopped using these approaches.

For those who want more control, virtually no separation in wide format printers, and the ability to have the best longevity, I'm just pointing to an approach that may give them that.

It's a big market with lots of different levels of interest and expertise.  Most B&W photographers have clearly just settled on the Epson or other OEM "Advanced B&W" type of approach.  These are fine also, but I try to find the best for the least $$.  No one size fits all in this market.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Keenan <ausdlk@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I rarely butt into these conversations but these this all sounds SO
> complicated, no offense to Paul, et al.
> 
> Why aren't you just buying one of the glossy compatible Piezography
> inksets? Put in the inks, use of of the available curves (or have one made
> if you use an exotic paper), and make great prints with NO, NONE gloss
> differential.
> 
> All this code like 5K+LC, etc. sounds like stuff for scientists, not
> photographers wanting to make exhibition quality prints.
> .
> Dave.
> 
> --
> See my 2012 Picture A Week (PAW) Gallery
> <http://www.dlkphotography.com/paw>originally begun in 2007.
> Please join my photography mailing
> list<http://dlkphotography.us2.list-manage2.com/subscribe?u=3d9dfbb5b18c4817532a37b90&id=4dd441d8fe>
> .
> Become a collector. Purchase selected prints here <http://bit.ly/JHfpMb>.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-18 by jffelinik

I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), though I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.

As I have not had the time to dig deep into doing my own profiling, I use Paul's ICC profile for Premium Gloss Photo Paper with most of my glossy/semi-gloss/baryta/pearl papers, and on most all of them, specifically the Smooth Pearl, bronzing is a non issue.



Cheers
J.F. Felinik


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Since I'm going to have to start from scratch with my 4880, I'm going
> to investigate some ink sets developed since I settled on Paul's
> Carbon-6 ink on Epson's Hot Press Natural awhile ago.
> While it's an excellent combination, I still long for a glossier
> approach for some images. This brings me to Paul's newer
> glossy-compatible ink sets, such as his 6K + LC & LM and   5K + LC,
> LM, & Y ink sets.  In particular, do they show gloss differential or
> bronzing?  What papers work best with them?
>

Re: Glossy BW

2012-08-19 by Paul

"jffelinik" <jf@...> wrote:
>
> I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), ...
> I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.
...


The problem I ran into with the blended carbon + color inksets like UT-14, where one channel is a blend, is that on wide format printers the print tones were not stable.  See the graphs on page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf 

So, I switched to a format that used non-blended inks only.  That is what the inkset approach described at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf does.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy BW

2013-06-03 by J.F. Felinik

Lately I've been trying out some new great papers, and wonder if anyone
happen to have a profile for UT-14 and Museo Silver Rag?

I've used this paper with the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk ICC from you Paul, and
it's by far the best result I've ever achieved with this inkset! Is there
anyone who has a custom curve for this paper, or anyone else using the
UT-14 and this paper that also would love to get a curve for it?

:)




--
http://felinik.com
http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik <https://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik>


2012/8/19 Paul <roark.paul@...>

> **
>
>
> "jffelinik" <jf@...> wrote:
> >
> > I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), ...
>
> > I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.
> ...
>
> The problem I ran into with the blended carbon + color inksets like UT-14,
> where one channel is a blend, is that on wide format printers the print
> tones were not stable. See the graphs on page 4 of
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf
>
> So, I switched to a format that used non-blended inks only. That is what
> the inkset approach described at
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf does.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy BW

2013-06-03 by Paul Roark

Using the Ilford Gold curve that is in the Profiles Zip file to make a
custom ICC for Museo paper is what I'd recommend.  It's quite easy to make
those ICCs.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 4:51 AM, J.F. Felinik <jf@...> wrote:

> Lately I've been trying out some new great papers, and wonder if anyone
> happen to have a profile for UT-14 and Museo Silver Rag?
>
> I've used this paper with the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk ICC from you Paul, and
> it's by far the best result I've ever achieved with this inkset! Is there
> anyone who has a custom curve for this paper, or anyone else using the
> UT-14 and this paper that also would love to get a curve for it?
>
> :)
>
>
>
>
> --
> http://felinik.com
> http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik <https://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik>
>
>
> 2012/8/19 Paul <roark.paul@...>
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > "jffelinik" <jf@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), ...
> >
> > > I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.
> > ...
> >
> > The problem I ran into with the blended carbon + color inksets like
> UT-14,
> > where one channel is a blend, is that on wide format printers the print
> > tones were not stable. See the graphs on page 4 of
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf
> >
> > So, I switched to a format that used non-blended inks only. That is what
> > the inkset approach described at
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf does.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy BW

2013-06-04 by remononaz1

I developed two color curves for use with UT-14 on glossy and satin papers. I've not used Museo Silver Rag, but the two curves work very well on Red River Arctic Polar Gloss, Ultrapro Satin and Polar Pearl Metallic. I think they will work on just about any glossy paper, though you may need to put a custom ICC with them. I've used them with custom ICCs and Gamma 2.2 printer control setting successfully. You can get copies of the curve .acv files at:

http://sdrv.ms/18L6GoZ (neutral) and http://sdrv.ms/11p4e5F (warm)

These will at least give you a defect-free surface and probably good tone. Black density and shading may require further work with an ICC or levels adjustment. 

Homer Shannon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "J.F. Felinik" <jf@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Lately I've been trying out some new great papers, and wonder if anyone
> happen to have a profile for UT-14 and Museo Silver Rag?
> 
> I've used this paper with the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk ICC from you Paul, and
> it's by far the best result I've ever achieved with this inkset! Is there
> anyone who has a custom curve for this paper, or anyone else using the
> UT-14 and this paper that also would love to get a curve for it?
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> http://felinik.com
> http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik <https://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik>
> 
> 
> 2012/8/19 Paul <roark.paul@...>
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > "jffelinik" <jf@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), ...
> >
> > > I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.
> > ...
> >
> > The problem I ran into with the blended carbon + color inksets like UT-14,
> > where one channel is a blend, is that on wide format printers the print
> > tones were not stable. See the graphs on page 4 of
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf
> >
> > So, I switched to a format that used non-blended inks only. That is what
> > the inkset approach described at
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf does.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy BW

2013-06-04 by J.F. Felinik

Hi,

Great thanks, unfortunately I don't use or own photoshop, I print on
surface papers with the  ICC's I got withthe UT-14 kit (those made by
Paul), and on Matte with the QTR and the description files also made by
Paul.

It'd be really great if it was possible to print out calibration patterns
and send to MIS and get proper custom ICC's generated as one can with
Piezography, that'd make life so much easier with the MIS ink...

:)



--
http://felinik.com
http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik <https://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik>


2013/6/4 remononaz1 <homershannon@...>

> **
>
>
> I developed two color curves for use with UT-14 on glossy and satin
> papers. I've not used Museo Silver Rag, but the two curves work very well
> on Red River Arctic Polar Gloss, Ultrapro Satin and Polar Pearl Metallic. I
> think they will work on just about any glossy paper, though you may need to
> put a custom ICC with them. I've used them with custom ICCs and Gamma 2.2
> printer control setting successfully. You can get copies of the curve .acv
> files at:
>
> http://sdrv.ms/18L6GoZ (neutral) and http://sdrv.ms/11p4e5F (warm)
>
> These will at least give you a defect-free surface and probably good tone.
> Black density and shading may require further work with an ICC or levels
> adjustment.
>
> Homer Shannon
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "J.F. Felinik" <jf@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Lately I've been trying out some new great papers, and wonder if anyone
> > happen to have a profile for UT-14 and Museo Silver Rag?
> >
> > I've used this paper with the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk ICC from you Paul,
> and
> > it's by far the best result I've ever achieved with this inkset! Is there
> > anyone who has a custom curve for this paper, or anyone else using the
> > UT-14 and this paper that also would love to get a curve for it?
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://felinik.com
> > http://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik <https://www.facebook.com/jf.felinik>
> >
> >
> > 2012/8/19 Paul <roark.paul@...>
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > "jffelinik" <jf@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I use the MIS Ultratone set on my epson 1400 (MIS UT-14), ...
> > >
> > > > I assume there's something similar available for your 4880 from MIS.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > The problem I ran into with the blended carbon + color inksets like
> UT-14,
> > > where one channel is a blend, is that on wide format printers the print
> > > tones were not stable. See the graphs on page 4 of
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf
> > >
> > > So, I switched to a format that used non-blended inks only. That is
> what
> > > the inkset approach described at
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf does.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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