Digital BW, The Print

On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:41 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

>>> This is my first post.  I am a papermaker interested in making  
> handmade sheets of Gampi for  digital printmakers.  To do so will  
> require a mould suited to your medium.  Mould making is a very  
> demanding skill so the correct dimension is essential. Are there  
> standard sizes and weights? If so, please advise which are most widely  
> used. Are the deckles trimmed?  I am using 100% Gampi. The color is a  
> natural buff but I could whiten it with additives. Any advise would be  
> very useful .
> 
> Inkjet sizes are ideally based on the smaller dimension fitting one of the standard printer widths, and the length being, typically, 1.5 times that width, though other ratios would also be desirable. The printer widths are 13", 17", 24",  and then possibly 36", as well as 42". You might not want to produce all those widths; and the larger of the sizes may not be practical for you, but that would be the ideal lineup. 
> 
> Deckle edges are wonderful, and would provide a "striking" handmade effect, but would need to be carefully taped, to assure they do not cause jams and head strikes in the printer. Providing pretaped deckle edges, with a removable tape, would be a very unique feature. 
> 
> Whiteners are quite undesirable in a pH balanced, acid free, long life paper, as they fade out over time, and may even cause cascade effects that fade the inks as well. Some papers are offered in both a whitened and a natural version, to let customers choose for themselves. 
> 
> Coatings are another issue. Many papers use an opaque white coating, so that the substrate is totally hidden by the coating. A very few inkjet users print on uncoated rag papers, and accept the reduced color gamut and weaker blacks as a side effect of that choice. There are also less common transparent coatings that reside inside, not on top of the media, that can produce an excellent gamut, while retaining the look and feel of the substrate.
> 
> A neutralized Gampi paper, with taped deckle edges and a transparent coating, in convenient inkjet sizes would be a very tempting product. Best of luck! 
> 
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> Datacolor inc. 
> cdtobie@...
> www.datacolor.com

>
> I think we need to bring cost into the picture too. I assume each sheet would be a premium price, and well deserved being it is hand made, but will it be cost efficient for us who print production. Its a good idea, but before you get us all excited I think you might want to post a price range you are thinking of selling your papers. Just a thought.
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:41 PM, C D Tobie wrote:
> 
> >>> This is my first post.  I am a papermaker interested in making  
> > handmade sheets of Gampi for  digital printmakers.  To do so will  
> > require a mould suited to your medium.  Mould making is a very  
> > demanding skill so the correct dimension is essential. Are there  
> > standard sizes and weights? If so, please advise which are most widely  
> > used. Are the deckles trimmed?  I am using 100% Gampi. The color is a  
> > natural buff but I could whiten it with additives. Any advise would be  
> > very useful .
> > 
> > Inkjet sizes are ideally based on the smaller dimension fitting one of the standard printer widths, and the length being, typically, 1.5 times that width, though other ratios would also be desirable. The printer widths are 13", 17", 24",  and then possibly 36", as well as 42". You might not want to produce all those widths; and the larger of the sizes may not be practical for you, but that would be the ideal lineup. 
> > 
> > Deckle edges are wonderful, and would provide a "striking" handmade effect, but would need to be carefully taped, to assure they do not cause jams and head strikes in the printer. Providing pretaped deckle edges, with a removable tape, would be a very unique feature. 
> > 
> > Whiteners are quite undesirable in a pH balanced, acid free, long life paper, as they fade out over time, and may even cause cascade effects that fade the inks as well. Some papers are offered in both a whitened and a natural version, to let customers choose for themselves. 
> > 
> > Coatings are another issue. Many papers use an opaque white coating, so that the substrate is totally hidden by the coating. A very few inkjet users print on uncoated rag papers, and accept the reduced color gamut and weaker blacks as a side effect of that choice. There are also less common transparent coatings that reside inside, not on top of the media, that can produce an excellent gamut, while retaining the look and feel of the substrate.
> > 
> > A neutralized Gampi paper, with taped deckle edges and a transparent coating, in convenient inkjet sizes would be a very tempting product. Best of luck! 
> > 
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> > Datacolor inc. 
> > cdtobie@...
> > www.datacolor.com
>

On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:08 PM, gumkeith wrote:

> I appreciate your suggestion. Quantity and size are all important of  
> course but I am currently pulling  16" x 20" for $2.50 a sheet for  
> 100 or less. No doubt this price far exceeds machine made paper, but  
> for the discriminating artist/buyer, handmade Gampi is the king of  
> fibers which may make little difference to a commercial client. In a  
> gallery setting however, it makes an impression.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia  
> <mark@...> wrote:
>>
>> I think we need to bring cost into the picture too. I assume each  
>> sheet would be a premium price, and well deserved being it is hand  
>> made, but will it be cost efficient for us who print production.  
>> Its a good idea, but before you get us all excited I think you  
>> might want to post a price range you are thinking of selling your  
>> papers. Just a thought.
>>
>> Mark
>> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:41 PM, C D Tobie wrote:
>>
>>>>> This is my first post.  I am a papermaker interested in making
>>> handmade sheets of Gampi for  digital printmakers.  To do so will
>>> require a mould suited to your medium.  Mould making is a very
>>> demanding skill so the correct dimension is essential. Are there
>>> standard sizes and weights? If so, please advise which are most  
>>> widely
>>> used. Are the deckles trimmed?  I am using 100% Gampi. The color  
>>> is a
>>> natural buff but I could whiten it with additives. Any advise  
>>> would be
>>> very useful .
>>>
>>> Inkjet sizes are ideally based on the smaller dimension fitting  
>>> one of the standard printer widths, and the length being,  
>>> typically, 1.5 times that width, though other ratios would also be  
>>> desirable. The printer widths are 13", 17", 24",  and then  
>>> possibly 36", as well as 42". You might not want to produce all  
>>> those widths; and the larger of the sizes may not be practical for  
>>> you, but that would be the ideal lineup.
>>>
>>> Deckle edges are wonderful, and would provide a "striking"  
>>> handmade effect, but would need to be carefully taped, to assure  
>>> they do not cause jams and head strikes in the printer. Providing  
>>> pretaped deckle edges, with a removable tape, would be a very  
>>> unique feature.
>>>
>>> Whiteners are quite undesirable in a pH balanced, acid free, long  
>>> life paper, as they fade out over time, and may even cause cascade  
>>> effects that fade the inks as well. Some papers are offered in  
>>> both a whitened and a natural version, to let customers choose for  
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> Coatings are another issue. Many papers use an opaque white  
>>> coating, so that the substrate is totally hidden by the coating. A  
>>> very few inkjet users print on uncoated rag papers, and accept the  
>>> reduced color gamut and weaker blacks as a side effect of that  
>>> choice. There are also less common transparent coatings that  
>>> reside inside, not on top of the media, that can produce an  
>>> excellent gamut, while retaining the look and feel of the substrate.
>>>
>>> A neutralized Gampi paper, with taped deckle edges and a  
>>> transparent coating, in convenient inkjet sizes would be a very  
>>> tempting product. Best of luck!
>>>
>>>
>>> C. David Tobie
>>> Global Product Technology Manager
>>> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
>>> Datacolor inc.
>>> cdtobie@...
>>> www.datacolor.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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>

>
> I think that is a reasonable price for handmade papers. I would be  
> interested in 16"x20" size for my own work, and like CD Tobie said,  
> with deckle edge but some way to keep it flat during printing.
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:08 PM, gumkeith wrote:
> 
> > I appreciate your suggestion. Quantity and size are all important of  
> > course but I am currently pulling  16" x 20" for $2.50 a sheet for  
> > 100 or less. No doubt this price far exceeds machine made paper, but  
> > for the discriminating artist/buyer, handmade Gampi is the king of  
> > fibers which may make little difference to a commercial client. In a  
> > gallery setting however, it makes an impression.
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia  
> > <mark@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think we need to bring cost into the picture too. I assume each  
> >> sheet would be a premium price, and well deserved being it is hand  
> >> made, but will it be cost efficient for us who print production.  
> >> Its a good idea, but before you get us all excited I think you  
> >> might want to post a price range you are thinking of selling your  
> >> papers. Just a thought.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> >>
> >> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:41 PM, C D Tobie wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> This is my first post.  I am a papermaker interested in making
> >>> handmade sheets of Gampi for  digital printmakers.  To do so will
> >>> require a mould suited to your medium.  Mould making is a very
> >>> demanding skill so the correct dimension is essential. Are there
> >>> standard sizes and weights? If so, please advise which are most  
> >>> widely
> >>> used. Are the deckles trimmed?  I am using 100% Gampi. The color  
> >>> is a
> >>> natural buff but I could whiten it with additives. Any advise  
> >>> would be
> >>> very useful .
> >>>
> >>> Inkjet sizes are ideally based on the smaller dimension fitting  
> >>> one of the standard printer widths, and the length being,  
> >>> typically, 1.5 times that width, though other ratios would also be  
> >>> desirable. The printer widths are 13", 17", 24",  and then  
> >>> possibly 36", as well as 42". You might not want to produce all  
> >>> those widths; and the larger of the sizes may not be practical for  
> >>> you, but that would be the ideal lineup.
> >>>
> >>> Deckle edges are wonderful, and would provide a "striking"  
> >>> handmade effect, but would need to be carefully taped, to assure  
> >>> they do not cause jams and head strikes in the printer. Providing  
> >>> pretaped deckle edges, with a removable tape, would be a very  
> >>> unique feature.
> >>>
> >>> Whiteners are quite undesirable in a pH balanced, acid free, long  
> >>> life paper, as they fade out over time, and may even cause cascade  
> >>> effects that fade the inks as well. Some papers are offered in  
> >>> both a whitened and a natural version, to let customers choose for  
> >>> themselves.
> >>>
> >>> Coatings are another issue. Many papers use an opaque white  
> >>> coating, so that the substrate is totally hidden by the coating. A  
> >>> very few inkjet users print on uncoated rag papers, and accept the  
> >>> reduced color gamut and weaker blacks as a side effect of that  
> >>> choice. There are also less common transparent coatings that  
> >>> reside inside, not on top of the media, that can produce an  
> >>> excellent gamut, while retaining the look and feel of the substrate.
> >>>
> >>> A neutralized Gampi paper, with taped deckle edges and a  
> >>> transparent coating, in convenient inkjet sizes would be a very  
> >>> tempting product. Best of luck!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> C. David Tobie
> >>> Global Product Technology Manager
> >>> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> >>> Datacolor inc.
> >>> cdtobie@
> >>> www.datacolor.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the  
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;  
> > OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> > GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

>
> 
> 
> I'd gladly pay that for a sheet of fine paper. Currently, I'm experimenting with a number of art papers - watercolor, pastel & charcoal. My cost per piece (after cutting) ranges from about $3-7. If I'm using a heavy watercolor sheet the price can go even higher.
> 
> It's tough to find a sheet that small (16x20) w/4 deckled edges. Most of the time I'm taking sheets that are larger (as much as 30x40) & cutting them down. I end up w/2 straight & 2 deckled edges or (if I'm really lucky) 1 straight & 3 deckled. I've yet to have any head strike issues from the edges - even on Amalfi Passion, which has a fair amount of curl. But, that's only my (one person's) experience.
> 
> I also love to have the watermark show on the bottom margin. There are a few mills that put 2 watermarks on each sheet. Your proposed dimensions (16x20) would be great w/2 watermarks. Then it could be cut into 2-10x16 pieces - perfect for printing a 35mm frame (24x35mm original.)
> 
> Jon
>

>
>   Many thanks to all those who contributed messages dealing with this subject. You have informed a naive papermaker.  I found a clear inkAid product that seems to address the question of a proper coating. Is anybody familiar with this?  Is there a cheaper alternative?  ihttp://www.inkaid1.com/Products/SemiGloss.html At $46.00 for two quarts, I am trying to quess what this will add to the cost of each sheet.  A quart may cover no more than 25 sheets of 16x20.  
>     I live in the mountains of northern Luzon, Philippines each summer http://ling.nthu.edu.tw/faculty/hcliao/pictures/Batad%20rice%20terrace.jpg  Gampi grows wild on marginal land around this village. Local residents harvest the fiber and process it for me.  The Gampi bush is of no use to the Ifugao because the wood is balsa like. It is one of the few natural resources that does not need chemical assistance or cultivation. 
>    We will be making paper again this summer from July to November.  Before departing  I need to resolve as many problems as possible and ship essential supplies well in advance.  Should I order the inkAid product?
>