Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

OGD, 
Can you tell by the manual, or do you know how the new round cymbals 
are mounted(DXTIIS)? Do they use a mechanism to allow natural 
movement, or can you install Aquarian type springs to minimize 
stiffness? Thanks!
Dan

--- Dan Cheak wrote:
> ...do you know how the new round cymbals are mounted?
> (DXTIIS)? Do they use a mechanism to allow natural 
> movement, or can you install Aquarian type springs
> to minimize stiffness?

I'm prepared to bet that the motion is not terrific, for two 
reasons. First, underneath the cymbal is a widget that clamps to the 
tilter and fits into the underside of the cymbal to prevent it 
spinning (so the trigger stays in the right place). Second, the top 
felt seems to be recessed into the "bell" of the cymbal. I suspect 
it will swing a bit, certainly better than the PCY6x/8x pie slices, 
but still be heavily damped. If you can install an Aquarian spring, 
you probably won't be able to stop the cymbal spinning.

ObCaveat: speculation; late; tired; decrepit. YMMV.

Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
<moosetication@y...> wrote:
> --- Dan Cheak wrote:
> > ...do you know how the new round cymbals are mounted?
> > (DXTIIS)? Do they use a mechanism to allow natural 
> > movement, or can you install Aquarian type springs
> > to minimize stiffness?
> 
> I'm prepared to bet that the motion is not terrific, for two 
> reasons. First, underneath the cymbal is a widget that clamps to 
the 
> tilter and fits into the underside of the cymbal to prevent it 
> spinning (so the trigger stays in the right place). Second, the 
top 
> felt seems to be recessed into the "bell" of the cymbal. I suspect 
> it will swing a bit, certainly better than the PCY6x/8x pie 
slices, 
> but still be heavily damped. If you can install an Aquarian 
spring, 
> you probably won't be able to stop the cymbal spinning.
> 
> ObCaveat: speculation; late; tired; decrepit. YMMV.
> 
> Stewart

I thought it lokked like it might be a little stiff. I guess I'll 
know when it get here. Thanks Stewart

--- Dan Cheak wrote:

> I guess I'll know when it get here.

Someone with the DTXpressIII SP may be able to comment - they're the 
same cymbals.

Stewart

From: Dan Cheak 

 " OGD, 
Can you tell by the manual, or do you know how the new round cymbals 
are mounted(DXTIIS)? Do they use a mechanism to allow natural 
movement, or can you install Aquarian type springs to minimize 
stiffness? Thanks!
Dan "
 
Dan, 
 
There were some close up photos of the new cymbal mounting hardware taken by
Feefer at the  <http://www.vdrum> www.vdrums.com.
 
I don't have the link, but a search of the site should turn them up. They
were taken at the Winter NAMM and were posted in late January on that site.
Since he is a member here maybe he can add them to the photo gallery here.
 
 
 
OGD 


 
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"
>  
> Dan, 
>  
> There were some close up photos of the new cymbal mounting 
hardware taken by
> Feefer at the  <http://www.vdrum> www.vdrums.com.
>  
> I don't have the link, but a search of the site should turn them 
up. They
> were taken at the Winter NAMM and were posted in late January on 
that site.
> Since he is a member here maybe he can add them to the photo 
gallery here.
>  
>  
>  
> OGD 

Found them! Very good look at the mounting. It doesn't look like 
springs could/should be added. As per Stewart, they're probably a 
little stiff, but an improvement over the previous cymbals. Thanks a 
lot for the link, OGD
Dan
> 
> 
>  
> 
*********************************************************************
*****
> The information transmitted herewith is sensitive information 
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> for use to the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If 
the reader
> of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby 
notified that
> any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying 
or other
> use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information 
is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in 
error,
> please contact the sender and delete the material from your 
computer.
> 
> 
> 
_____________________________________________________________________
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Hi all,

Feefer here.  I am a member here, too, but I don't follow this list too closely (since I'm on the 'dark side').  But hey, we're all e-drummers, right?  :)

You guys have my permission to do whatever you want with the DTXTreme IIS photos: if you want to upload them here, that's fine.  

http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/feefer2

(Click on the DTXTreme IIS NAMM folder)

But it sounds like photos of the kit won't be so hard thing to get, and soon you'll be able to check them out in person, too, what with the kits starting to ship....

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Cheak" <cheak@i...> wrote:

> "
> > 
> > Dan,
> > 
> > There were some close up photos of the new cymbal mounting
> hardware taken by
> > Feefer at the  <http://www.vdrum> www.vdrums.com.
> > 
> > I don't have the link, but a search of the site should turn them
> up. They
> > were taken at the Winter NAMM and were posted in late January on
> that site.
> > Since he is a member here maybe he can add them to the photo
> gallery here.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > OGD
>
> Found them! Very good look at the mounting. It doesn't look like
> springs could/should be added. As per Stewart, they're probably a
> little stiff, but an improvement over the previous cymbals. Thanks a
> lot for the link, OGD
> Dan
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> *********************************************************************
> *****
> > The information transmitted herewith is sensitive information
> intended only
> > for use to the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If
> the reader
> > of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified that
> > any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying
> or other
> > use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information
> is
> > strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
> error,
> > please contact the sender and delete the material from your
> computer.
> >
> >
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> _
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> _

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Feefer here.  I am a member here, too, but I don't follow this list 
too closely (since I'm on the 'dark side').  But hey, we're all e-
drummers, right?  :)
> 
> You guys have my permission to do whatever you want with the 
DTXTreme IIS photos: if you want to upload them here, that's fine.  
> 
> http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/feefer2
> 
> (Click on the DTXTreme IIS NAMM folder)
> 
> But it sounds like photos of the kit won't be so hard thing to get, 
and soon you'll be able to check them out in person, too, what with 
the kits starting to ship....

Hey Chris,

I just opened up your briefcase and listened to a couple of mp3s. Is 
that you playing?  Nice sticking.  Go, Chris, Go.

Ed

emf said:
> Hey Chris,
>
> I just opened up your briefcase and listened to a couple of mp3s. Is
> that you playing?  Nice sticking.  Go, Chris, Go.
>
> Ed

Hey Chris, I just opened your briefcase too and though I could only find
a few pictures of the Yamaha gear, there sure were a lot of pictures in
that folder called "Private/NAMM_Pr0n".... Go Chris Go! :)

Vern

PS: Just gotta razz the guys from the "dark side" once in a while... :D

-- 
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE    | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer    | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
http://www.txis.com        | is up, then we obviously don't need
Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" \ufffdVLG

Hi Ed and others,

Those MP3's were quick and dirty audio demos I made to show off the Virtual Rim Switch (VRS), a little electronic device I made that allows a mesh-head drum to function like a piezo/rim-switch two-zone pad.... 

We've all asked the question, "why can't I use a dual-piezo pad in any other input besides the dual-piezo snare input (or the dual-mono-piezo inputs)?"   Or better yet: "why can I only trigger a single sound from the tom trigger inputs with my mesh head pads?"  

Of course, the answer is all of those other trigger inputs usually are designed for use with those piezo/rim-switch pads.  Problem is, no one makes a mesh-headed piezo/rim-switch pad.  All the mesh-head pads are mono- or dual-piezo, and the module trigger inputs often don't use those (more of a processing burden on the trigger input circuitry vs. using piezo/rim-switch pads).

However, the VRS allow you to use a mesh head pad as two-zone to output a signal that's identical to a typical piezo rim-switch pad; thus you can convert any mesh pad to work.

In that audio demo, ALL the sounds (except for hi-hat stuff, which I'm playing with my left foot only, no hi-hat pad attached) you are coming from ONE mono-piezo pad that has two VRS installed, thus making the pad function as a three zone, four-tone pad.  It's triggering two TD-10Ex module inputs....  I'm basically just playing a drum corps style funky groove, etc.

####

BTW, that same circuit works with ANY module (including the DTXTreme IIS), so it would be possible to put three-zones on the surface of ANY mesh-headed pad and drive something like the DTXTreme IIS with mesh pads, instead of the stock rubber pads...  Heck, get those DTXTreme pads from Ed @ Drumbalaya, add a VRS or two, and you'll have one heck of a user interface.  ;)

(I'd have to measure the resistance value used for the 2nd rim zone of the newer 3-zone pads, but that should be a dead cinch; then put the equivalent resistance in series with the VRS and you're in business...)

####

I did it more as a proof of concept, and to work out the design bugs, but have no plans to "producticize" it.  Been using the VRS on my own kit for awhile now...

I have the capability to produce these, but I do it more as a labor of love (for those fellow e-drummers into tinkering or those who want something unique)...

I don't think it has widespread commercial applications, as it's probably too technical for most: most drummers (rightfully) don't care about the difference between a piezo and a switch, so even explaining the concept of the VRS is fighting a major battle...  

The user would have to self-install with a screwdriver, and that plus knowing how to adjust the module trigger settings makes it a bit problematic (except for the more technically-inclined).

But hey, I have fun with this kind of stuff.  ;)

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:

> Hey Chris,
>
> I just opened up your briefcase and listened to a couple of mp3s. Is
> that you playing?  Nice sticking.  Go, Chris, Go.
>
> Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> Hi Ed and others,
> 
> Those MP3's were quick and dirty audio demos I made to show off the 
Virtual Rim Switch (VRS), a little electronic device I made that 
allows a mesh-head drum to function like a piezo/rim-switch two-zone 
pad.... 

Chris,

It's a cool invention. I'm not sure that I agree with you about it 
being too esoteric for the average (or at least the median) e-
drummer. Even if it seems abstruse on the surface, necessity can be 
the mother of understanding as well as of invention. Drummers on 
budgets are always lamenting  the lack of inputs on their modules.  
Some shy away from dual-zone mesh pads only because they use up two 
inputs.  Many might view a mesh pad that makes two sounds through 
one "stereo" input a godsend that's worth a little education and/or 
DIY. If you ever do put a meter on the Yamahas, let us know (unless 
of course you ditch love and decide to get some money for your labor).

By the way, I'll have to check with OGD, but the DTXTIIS might have 
the capability of triggering either a second piezo or a switch on 
inputs 1-6. Maybe you know. Something in the back of my mind says so, 
but I could be wrong.

Ed

Hi Chris

I for one would love to try your modification on my mesh head 
RHP120SD.

Any Chance you could post the details?

Cheers

Warren
(New Zealand)



--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> Hi Ed and others,
> 
> Those MP3's were quick and dirty audio demos I made to show off 
the Virtual Rim Switch (VRS), a little electronic device I made that 
allows a mesh-head drum to function like a piezo/rim-switch two-zone 
pad.... 
> 
> We've all asked the question, "why can't I use a dual-piezo pad in 
any other input besides the dual-piezo snare input (or the dual-mono-
piezo inputs)?"   Or better yet: "why can I only trigger a single 
sound from the tom trigger inputs with my mesh head pads?"  
> 
> Of course, the answer is all of those other trigger inputs usually 
are designed for use with those piezo/rim-switch pads.  Problem is, 
no one makes a mesh-headed piezo/rim-switch pad.  All the mesh-head 
pads are mono- or dual-piezo, and the module trigger inputs often 
don't use those (more of a processing burden on the trigger input 
circuitry vs. using piezo/rim-switch pads).
> 
> However, the VRS allow you to use a mesh head pad as two-zone to 
output a signal that's identical to a typical piezo rim-switch pad; 
thus you can convert any mesh pad to work.
> 
> In that audio demo, ALL the sounds (except for hi-hat stuff, which 
I'm playing with my left foot only, no hi-hat pad attached) you are 
coming from ONE mono-piezo pad that has two VRS installed, thus 
making the pad function as a three zone, four-tone pad.  It's 
triggering two TD-10Ex module inputs....  I'm basically just playing 
a drum corps style funky groove, etc.
> 
> ####
> 
> BTW, that same circuit works with ANY module (including the 
DTXTreme IIS), so it would be possible to put three-zones on the 
surface of ANY mesh-headed pad and drive something like the DTXTreme 
IIS with mesh pads, instead of the stock rubber pads...  Heck, get 
those DTXTreme pads from Ed @ Drumbalaya, add a VRS or two, and 
you'll have one heck of a user interface.  ;)
> 
> (I'd have to measure the resistance value used for the 2nd rim 
zone of the newer 3-zone pads, but that should be a dead cinch; then 
put the equivalent resistance in series with the VRS and you're in 
business...)
> 
> ####
> 
> I did it more as a proof of concept, and to work out the design 
bugs, but have no plans to "producticize" it.  Been using the VRS on 
my own kit for awhile now...
> 
> I have the capability to produce these, but I do it more as a 
labor of love (for those fellow e-drummers into tinkering or those 
who want something unique)...
> 
> I don't think it has widespread commercial applications, as it's 
probably too technical for most: most drummers (rightfully) don't 
care about the difference between a piezo and a switch, so even 
explaining the concept of the VRS is fighting a major battle...  
> 
> The user would have to self-install with a screwdriver, and that 
plus knowing how to adjust the module trigger settings makes it a 
bit problematic (except for the more technically-inclined).
> 
> But hey, I have fun with this kind of stuff.  ;)
> 
> Chris
> 
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> > Hey Chris,
> >
> > I just opened up your briefcase and listened to a couple of 
mp3s. Is

> > that you playing?  Nice sticking.  Go, Chris, Go.
> >
> > Ed

HI Warren,

Here's more info in a thread discussing the topic:

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14119

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "warrenpink" <warren.pinker@x> wrote:

> Hi Chris
>
> I for one would love to try your modification on my mesh head
> RHP120SD.
>
> Any Chance you could post the details?
>
> Cheers
>
> Warren
> (New Zealand)
>
>
>
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Ed and others,
> >
> > Those MP3's were quick and dirty audio demos I made to show off
> the Virtual Rim Switch (VRS), a little electronic device I made that
> allows a mesh-head drum to function like a piezo/rim-switch two-zone
> pad....
> >
> > We've all asked the question, "why can't I use a dual-piezo pad in
> any other input besides the dual-piezo snare input (or the dual-mono-
> piezo inputs)?"   Or better yet: "why can I only trigger a single
> sound from the tom trigger inputs with my mesh head pads?" 
> >
> > Of course, the answer is all of those other trigger inputs usually
> are designed for use with those piezo/rim-switch pads.  Problem is,
> no one makes a mesh-headed piezo/rim-switch pad.  All the mesh-head
> pads are mono- or dual-piezo, and the module trigger inputs often
> don't use those (more of a processing burden on the trigger input
> circuitry vs. using piezo/rim-switch pads).
> >
> > However, the VRS allow you to use a mesh head pad as two-zone to
> output a signal that's identical to a typical piezo rim-switch pad;
> thus you can convert any mesh pad to work.
> >
> > In that audio demo, ALL the sounds (except for hi-hat stuff, which
> I'm playing with my left foot only, no hi-hat pad attached) you are
> coming from ONE mono-piezo pad that has two VRS installed, thus
> making the pad function as a three zone, four-tone pad.  It's
> triggering two TD-10Ex module inputs....  I'm basically just playing
> a drum corps style funky groove, etc.
> >
> > ####
> >
> > BTW, that same circuit works with ANY module (including the
> DTXTreme IIS), so it would be possible to put three-zones on the
> surface of ANY mesh-headed pad and drive something like the DTXTreme
> IIS with mesh pads, instead of the stock rubber pads...  Heck, get
> those DTXTreme pads from Ed @ Drumbalaya, add a VRS or two, and
> you'll have one heck of a user interface.  ;)
> >
> > (I'd have to measure the resistance value used for the 2nd rim
> zone of the newer 3-zone pads, but that should be a dead cinch; then
> put the equivalent resistance in series with the VRS and you're in
> business...)
> >
> > ####
> >
> > I did it more as a proof of concept, and to work out the design
> bugs, but have no plans to "producticize" it.  Been using the VRS on
> my own kit for awhile now...
> >
> > I have the capability to produce these, but I do it more as a
> labor of love (for those fellow e-drummers into tinkering or those
> who want something unique)...
> >
> > I don't think it has widespread commercial applications, as it's
> probably too technical for most: most drummers (rightfully) don't
> care about the difference between a piezo and a switch, so even
> explaining the concept of the VRS is fighting a major battle... 
> >
> > The user would have to self-install with a screwdriver, and that
> plus knowing how to adjust the module trigger settings makes it a
> bit problematic (except for the more technically-inclined).
> >
> > But hey, I have fun with this kind of stuff.  ;)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> > > Hey Chris,
> > >
> > > I just opened up your briefcase and listened to a couple of
> mp3s. Is
> > > that you playing?  Nice sticking.  Go, Chris, Go.
> > >
> > > Ed

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the kind words.

I probably should've tried to peddle that particular idea to a Roland competitor: it seems one way to work around Roland's seeming death-grip patent on the dual-piezo, mesh-head design.  ;)  I have other approaches (that I haven't gone public with) that would seem to be practical approaches to accomplish similar results in a different manner....

I wonder just how intent competitors are on truly doing something novel in terms of triggering: it's not like the only approach to transducer technology must involve the same old mono/dual piezo paradigm....    There ARE other cost-effective unique alternatives out there.  

At least Yamaha is going with the next-generation dual-switch approach: that's cool.  And I recall OGD did post details of the resistance used for the switch pathways a few months ago: it's somewhere in my notes.  ;)

Anyway, I'll keep you guys in the loop with the VRS.  I need to work out some minor details before letting anything "leave the nest".

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:

> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Ed and others,
> >
> > Those MP3's were quick and dirty audio demos I made to show off the
> Virtual Rim Switch (VRS), a little electronic device I made that
> allows a mesh-head drum to function like a piezo/rim-switch two-zone
> pad....
>
> Chris,
>
> It's a cool invention. I'm not sure that I agree with you about it
> being too esoteric for the average (or at least the median) e-
> drummer. Even if it seems abstruse on the surface, necessity can be
> the mother of understanding as well as of invention. Drummers on
> budgets are always lamenting  the lack of inputs on their modules. 
> Some shy away from dual-zone mesh pads only because they use up two
> inputs.  Many might view a mesh pad that makes two sounds through
> one "stereo" input a godsend that's worth a little education and/or
> DIY. If you ever do put a meter on the Yamahas, let us know (unless
> of course you ditch love and decide to get some money for your labor).
>
> By the way, I'll have to check with OGD, but the DTXTIIS might have
> the capability of triggering either a second piezo or a switch on
> inputs 1-6. Maybe you know. Something in the back of my mind says so,
> but I could be wrong.
>
> Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "feefer2" <feefer2@y...> wrote:
> Hi Ed,
> I wonder just how intent competitors are on truly doing something 
novel in terms of triggering: it's not like the only approach to 
transducer technology must involve the same old mono/dual piezo 
paradigm....    There ARE other cost-effective unique alternatives 
out there.  

Thank you, Chris. If it's any consolation, I've heard about, and 
talked with, not a few people over the years who brought such and 
such an idea to so and so and had every reason to believe that a deal 
was imminent, only to have it languish into oblivion. Frankly, even 
though times have certainly changed, the question seems to remain 
whether it is cost-effective for a company to work our some sort of 
financial settlement with an outsider or to hold the line and keep 
R&D in-house. After all, everyone is already paying Roland (grin). 

It is strange how few resources are used in electronic drums. Maybe 
it's because the various makers feel that they won't be regarded as 
alternatives to each other if they stray too far from the status quo, 
or maybe it's simply the reasonable inertia of a small market that 
needs tight mfg. standards, which is completely understandable. 

Well, these are just the ramblings of someone with the business sense 
of a hillside. 

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> Thank you, Chris. If it's any consolation, I've heard about, and
> talked with, not a few people over the years who brought such and
> such an idea to so and so and had every reason to believe that a deal
> was imminent, only to have it languish into oblivion. Frankly, even
> though times have certainly changed, the question seems to remain
> whether it is cost-effective for a company to work our some sort of
> financial settlement with an outsider or to hold the line and keep
> R&D in-house. After all, everyone is already paying Roland (grin).
>
> It is strange how few resources are used in electronic drums. Maybe
> it's because the various makers feel that they won't be regarded as
> alternatives to each other if they stray too far from the status quo,
> or maybe it's simply the reasonable inertia of a small market that
> needs tight mfg. standards, which is completely understandable.
>
> Well, these are just the ramblings of someone with the business sense
> of a hillside.
>
> Ed

Hi Ed,

All valid points.  

Yup, anyone who thinks it's simply a matter of "build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door" is incredibly naive about the process of selling, marketing, and distributing a product.  History (especially the MI business) is littered with great products that failed for a number of reasons, none of which had to do with the validity of the product.

It's always easy to stand on the side-lines and say, "why doesn't Yamaha or Roland do such-and-such and build this?"  It's always easier when it's not OUR money at stake, isn't it?  :)

@@@@

FWIW, I've always envisioned the e-drum market as struggle between two flesh-eating behemoth dinosaurs, both feeding on different ends of the same carcass.  Each beast is ready to attack the other, but only if the other upsets the uneasy detente'.

Down on the forest floor are the smaller rodent-like creatures, fighting over and feeding off any morsels that happen to fall from one or the other behemoth's mouthes....  The presence of the rodents is hardly noticed by the behemoths, except when one of the more fool-hardy rodents tries to nibble directly on the main carcass, or even bites on the foot of one of the dinosaurs...  :)

@@@@

Glad I'm not in THAT business: mine is just as amusing.   ;)

Chris