Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Just wondering if anyone has had any luck contacting Yamaha about the 
PCY150 cymbal pad.  I've emailed them several times trying to 
ascertain if it will ever exist and have never got a reply.

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "prog_uk" <proguk@h...> wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone has had any luck contacting Yamaha about 
the 
> PCY150 cymbal pad.  I've emailed them several times trying to 
> ascertain if it will ever exist and have never got a reply.

Chris,

Experience suggests that Yamaha will not give anything away until a 
formal product release occurs. I tried to tease out some information 
about the new module from Yamaha's public relations to no avail. The 
sources that this group has been able to tap--some of them highly 
placed--have confirmed that new electronics are on the docket but 
have provided no details. I've managed to corral some information 
from peripheral parties, but most of it is no better than partially 
informed guesswork. The fortuitous leak of the PCY 150 in the 
XpressII's manual, with the further evidence of the three-trigger 
snare, is probably as good an indication of its impending existence 
as anyone will get until the little creature is actually born. But 
with summer NAMM upon us, that time may well be nigh. Sometimes a 
direct question to someone like Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki, 
however, can get a surprise answer. But the stars have to be aligned 
correctly.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
<liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "prog_uk" <proguk@h...> wrote:
> > Just wondering if anyone has had any luck contacting Yamaha about 
> the 
> > PCY150 cymbal pad.  I've emailed them several times trying to 
> > ascertain if it will ever exist and have never got a reply.
> 
> Chris,
> 
> Experience suggests that Yamaha will not give anything away until a 
> formal product release occurs. I tried to tease out some 
information 
> about the new module from Yamaha's public relations to no avail. 
The 
> sources that this group has been able to tap--some of them highly 
> placed--have confirmed that new electronics are on the docket but 
> have provided no details. I've managed to corral some information 
> from peripheral parties, but most of it is no better than partially 
> informed guesswork. The fortuitous leak of the PCY 150 in the 
> XpressII's manual, with the further evidence of the three-trigger 
> snare, is probably as good an indication of its impending existence 
> as anyone will get until the little creature is actually born. But 
> with summer NAMM upon us, that time may well be nigh. Sometimes a 
> direct question to someone like Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki, 
> however, can get a surprise answer. But the stars have to be 
aligned 
> correctly.

That's more information than I've managed to get so far so many 
thanks for that.  I'd dearly love one of the beasties as a 
PCY65S/PCY10 combination will take up one precious input too many :-(

That said, I am assuming that the PCY150 will have the 3 zones as 
bell, bow and edge.  One never knows!

Chris

> That's more information than I've managed to get so far so many
> thanks for that.  I'd dearly love one of the beasties as a
> PCY65S/PCY10 combination will take up one precious input too many :-(
>
> That said, I am assuming that the PCY150 will have the 3 zones as
> bell, bow and edge.  One never knows!

Please, keep us posted about this new item!  I want one of these when it 
becomes available!

Stephanie

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> wrote:
>
> Please, keep us posted about this new item!  I want one of these 
when it 
> becomes available!

Maybe we should start a petition :-)

>  --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> wrote:
>  > Please, keep us posted about this new item!  I want one of these
>
> when it
>
> > becomes available!
>
> Maybe we should start a petition :-)

Yeah!  Good idea!

Stephanie

I just emailed Martin at Yamaha support last week about the two remaining
replacement IC chips for my DtxpressII modules that I was still waiting for.
In the email I commented on the Phantom "PCY150" and how it was mentioned in
the DtxpressII manual under trigger settings and it is also referenced in
the voice setup for zones 6 & 7. (There are voice assignments available for
Ride/RideE/RideC i.e. Ride=pad, RideE=edge, RideC=cup.) I even tried to
butter him up by telling him I was planning a replace three of my existing
PCY80S with PCY65s or the mystical PCY150 and replacing all of my TP65 with
TP65S. Considering NAMM is just days away, he could have at least said, "You
might want to hold off for a few days before you place your
order"....BUT....

The only response to my comments/question was in reference to the
back-ordered IC Chips, being shipped as soon as they received. Absolutely no
comment or response about the phantom PCY150. My guess is that either,
Yamaha made one but had too much cross-trigger problems and is having
trouble making it work ---or--- that it will be released at NAMM with it's
new flag ship kit/module to replace the now discontiued Dtxtreme. On the
other hand, since the DtxpressII has been so successful, the only thing they
add is an upgraded version of the DTXPressII with the PCY150 cymbals. Thus
keeping the price low and reasonable. Just a guess. 

OldGuyDrummer

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	prog_uk [SMTP:proguk@...]
> Sent:	Wednesday, July 16, 2003 2:42 PM
> To:	DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:	[DTXpress] Re: PCY150 ???
> 
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Please, keep us posted about this new item!   I want one of these 
> when it 
> > becomes available!
> 
> Maybe we should start a petition :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> My guess is that either, Yamaha made one but had too much cross-
trigger problems and is having
> trouble making it work ---or--- that it will be released at NAMM 
with it's
> new flag ship kit/module to replace the now discontiued Dtxtreme. 
On the
> other hand, since the DtxpressII has been so successful, the only 
thing they
> add is an upgraded version of the DTXPressII with the PCY150 
cymbals. Thus
> keeping the price low and reasonable. Just a guess. 

Hi OGD,

I don't think that technical problems have kept Yamaha mute about 
the PCY 150. Dual-zone pads (two piezos) are much more prone to 
crosstalk than multiple trigger pads with one piezo and one or two 
FSRs, and both kinds are tried and true at this point. You may be 
right that the new Xtreme kit will feature the PCY 150. If so, it 
will be interesting to see whether Yamaha retains the wedge shape or 
goes round like its major competition. Roland, after all, has silent 
rubber-type cymbals capable of making three noises, given the proper 
input and programming. If so, Yamaha probably wouldn't bundle the 
PCY 150 with a second iteration of XpressII that featured your 
upgraded chip. Since it's almost a certainty that a new high-end 
module is coming, a new Xtreme kit will probably accompany it, 
leaving Xpress owners the PCY 150 option only as an elective upgrade.

Ed

> Maybe we should start a petition :-)

Seriously, that's the sort of consumer clout that many of us hoped 
to achieve with this group. Now that it's 700 strong, it's not 
inconceivable that a concerted effort from us would make an impact 
on Yamaha's electronic drum dept., which is fairly small and, 
compared to the other majors, extraordinariy accessible.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
<liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> > Maybe we should start a petition :-)
> 
> Seriously, that's the sort of consumer clout that many of us hoped 
> to achieve with this group. Now that it's 700 strong, it's not 
> inconceivable that a concerted effort from us would make an impact 
> on Yamaha's electronic drum dept., which is fairly small and, 
> compared to the other majors, extraordinariy accessible.

How would we go about this do you think?

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "prog_uk" <proguk@h...> wrote:
> How would we go about this do you think?

Chris,

One way would be to determine how many members of this group were 
genuinely interested in purchasing at least one PCY 150, and then 
contact Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki via email with that information, 
explicitly mentioning this group (which is familiar to them), 
obsequiously re-emphasizing its dedication to Yamaha's DTX line, and 
asking when the cymbal will be available for purchase. Nothing moves 
a company like the prospect of a ready-made army of consumers, who 
represent the prospect of continuing sales and good karma. If the 
strategy worked in this case, it could only help in the future. 
True, we individually comprise only a drop in the bucket on a 
worldwide scale, but as a collective force, our efforts and ideas 
might have some representative value--in money and R&D. You never 
know.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
<liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "prog_uk" <proguk@h...> wrote:
> > How would we go about this do you think?
> 
> Chris,
> 
> One way would be to determine how many members of this group were 
> genuinely interested in purchasing at least one PCY 150, and then 
> contact Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki via email with that 
information, 
> explicitly mentioning this group (which is familiar to them), 
> obsequiously re-emphasizing its dedication to Yamaha's DTX line, 
and 
> asking when the cymbal will be available for purchase. Nothing 
moves 
> a company like the prospect of a ready-made army of consumers, who 
> represent the prospect of continuing sales and good karma. If the 
> strategy worked in this case, it could only help in the future. 
> True, we individually comprise only a drop in the bucket on a 
> worldwide scale, but as a collective force, our efforts and ideas 
> might have some representative value--in money and R&D. You never 
> know.

I have no idea how to contact either Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki but 
I assume you do or you wouldn't have mentioned it :-)

I'll certainly go on record as being a definite future purchaser of a 
PCY150 the minute it appears in the real world.  That is, of course, 
unless the price is ridiculously high.

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "prog_uk" <proguk@h...> wrote:

> I have no idea how to contact either Dave Jewell or Dave Kysicki 
but 
> I assume you do or you wouldn't have mentioned it :-)
> 
> I'll certainly go on record as being a definite future purchaser 
of a 
> PCY150 the minute it appears in the real world.  That is, of 
course, 
> unless the price is ridiculously high.

Chris,

Dave Jewell, Drum Product Mgr. djewell@...
 
Dave Ksyki, Customer Support dksyki@...

I'm not personally in the market for a three-trigger cymbal at this 
point, but a few people have indicated explicitly that they are. 
I'll bet many others who haven't posted are, too. You could run a 
poll. If the results are good, you could share it with Yamaha. It 
might function like a petition. Maybe it would be worthy at least of 
further information and a good experiment in its own right.

Ed

--- Ed wrote:
> You could run a poll.

Running now, Captain. Ends next Friday (when I go on holiday for 
three weeks, so I get to see the result!)

Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
<moosetication@y...> wrote:
> Running now, Captain. Ends next Friday (when I go on holiday for 
> three weeks, so I get to see the result!)

Stewart

Are you coming to the States again.

--- Ed wrote:
> Are you coming to the States again.

A three week holiday [sings, badly] North of the border, up Canada 
way.

Fly into Edmonton, spend a few days driving through Jasper and 
Banff, down to Calgary, dump the car, fly to Vancouver, spend a few 
days there, over to the island, get another car, drive up to Tofino 
(whale watch, dive), over to Qualicum (goof around), dump the car, 
jetfoil down to Seattle for one day, fly home.

Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
<moosetication@y...> wrote:
> Fly into Edmonton, spend a few days driving through Jasper and 
> Banff, down to Calgary, dump the car, fly to Vancouver, spend a 
few 
> days there, over to the island, get another car, drive up to 
Tofino 
> (whale watch, dive), over to Qualicum (goof around), dump the car, 
> jetfoil down to Seattle for one day, fly home.

Sounds like that Proclaimers song, Letter from America, which 
purports to be about a trip to the US, but is like a litany of 
visited spots in Canada. Looks to be loads of fun. Bring drumsticks 
for thigh practice.

Help everyone!

I would like recommendations on a keyboard amp that would be good for playing 
the DTXpress II at home, jamming with a group, and ocassionally playing 
somewhere.

I've looked at the Roland KC-350 (replaces the KC-300 with 120 watts of power 
among other things), the Roland KC-150 (replaces the KC-100 with more power 
among other things), the Peavey KB/A 100 (75 watts), and the Behringer 
KX-1200 (120 watts, but is purported to not sound as good as the Roland).

Suggestions or other amps to look at?  Thanks!!!
Stephanie

On Wed July 16 2003 8:08 pm, MrPhoney@... wrote:
> I have the Roland KC-500. 

Whoops!  I should also mention that it needs to be under $400.

Stephanie

On Wed July 16 2003 11:37 pm, MrPhoney@... wrote:
> I bought mine used. I paid $350 for it. Put it on an Amp Stand to elevate
> it and the sound is incredible.

I can't find it used for that price around here.  Pawn shops charge as much 
for used stuff as retailers do for new stuff.  I saw a used snare stand there 
for $39.99.  A few minutes later, at Brook Mays, I found a really good one 
for the same price, new!

Stephanie

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" <moosetication@y...> 
wrote:
> --- Ed wrote:
> > You could run a poll.
> 
> Running now, Captain. Ends next Friday (when I go on holiday for 
> three weeks, so I get to see the result!)

You don't hang about do you Stewart.  I hope the poll gets a good 
response from the many lurkers here.

It might also be interesting to see how many people that response would buy
more the one or two or three. Of course the down side to taking a poll like
this is if  500 people are interested in buying one but only 20 people
responsed. That might be all that is required for some admin. accounting
type at Yamaha to cancel the PCY150 project all together. So please, anybody
that reads the group, please vote and for those that are not registered
users, please register (it's free and easy) and cast a vote!!!!!



OldGuyDrummer

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	prog_uk [SMTP:proguk@...]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:32 AM
> To:	DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:	[DTXpress] Re: PCY150 ???
> 
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" <moosetication@y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- Ed wrote:
> > > You could run a poll.
> > 
> > Running now, Captain. Ends next Friday (when I go on holiday for 
> > three weeks, so I get to see the result!)
> 
> You don't hang about do you Stewart.   I hope the poll gets a good 
> response from the many lurkers here.
> 
> 
> 
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> I can't find it used for that price around here.  

Steph,

Are you that scared of ebay? It, and its long-shot cousin Half.com, 
could be your best bet. And although the horror stories are real, 
the enterprise is so huge that the likelihood that something bad is 
going to happen is no worse than the risk of taking a fatal fall in 
the shower or a lightening hit on the golf course. Like Olympic 
figure skating points, you just ignore the extreme bottom end 
(DTXpressII Buy It Now for $150; call 555.555.555 for free shipment 
from Estonia) and the extreme top end (DTXpressI, Buddy Rich 
signature model, never played, opening bid $2000). In other words, 
avoid the ones that are too good or bad to be true. To take steps 
against something going wrong, your can purchase extra protection 
from Paypal, as well as take other possible steps. But I'd wager to 
say that most of us have used ebay successfully at least once, and 
that the statistics in this group, Drumzilla's, and others support a 
miniscule probability of a mishap. That said, if you try ebay for a 
Roland amp, and the seller stiffs you, I'm going out on the links 
without a lightening rod during the next thunderstorm, hoping for 
the worst.

Ed

> Are you that scared of ebay? 

Damned right, I am!  If I can't see the merchandise and hear for myself that 
it works properly before I hand the money over, what's the point.  What  if I 
can't recover that money, even through Pay Pal?  Then that $400 is lost 
forever, never to be recovered.  I'll do whatever it takes to guarantee that 
when I hand out $bucks, I get something in return.

Stephanie

--- Ed wrote:
> ...ebay ... could be your best bet ... I'd wager to 
> say that most of us have used ebay successfully at
> least once...

Nine times so far since March, without a single mishap. Everything 
from a bass guitar for my daughter, through pads, to patch cables, 
for a total of about UKP550 (USD870). Never a complaint. I select 
carefully, always mail the seller under some pretense of a query or 
other (easy with US sellers, as I always ask if they're comfortable 
with non-US bidders), and only use Paypal.

Stewart

Steph,

I have a Roland KC-500 also and love it. I got mine for less than $400 but I
bought it when I bought my first two DtxpressII kits at the local Guitar
Center. Guitar Center will price match any legit price including online
prices. All you need to do is print out the online ad and take it with you.
I know you said you didn't want to go over $400, but considering the kind of
wear and tear (abuse) a bass drum can do to a 12" or 15" speaker, I
personnally, would have a hard time buying a used amp unless there was a
significant discount ($800 new => $300 used). IF the difference between and
used one and a new one was less than $100, I would either wait until I could
afford it or bite the bullet and spend the extra. But that's just me. I have
seen the KC-500 for around $450 online. One other suggestion before you make
a final decision is to go over to www.vdrums.com and do a search. There have
been several discussions on that site in the last year about a good low cost
amp.

Good luck on your search.

OldGuyDrummer
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	liberatusvirus [SMTP:liberatusvirus@...]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:35 AM
> To:	DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:	[DTXpress] Re: Keyboard amp for drum set
> 
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
> wrote:
> > I can't find it used for that price around here.   
> 
> Steph,
> 
> Are you that scared of ebay? It, and its long-shot cousin Half.com, 
> could be your best bet. And although the horror stories are real, 
> the enterprise is so huge that the likelihood that something bad is 
> going to happen is no worse than the risk of taking a fatal fall in 
> the shower or a lightening hit on the golf course. Like Olympic 
> figure skating points, you just ignore the extreme bottom end 
> (DTXpressII Buy It Now for $150; call 555.555.555 for free shipment 
> from Estonia) and the extreme top end (DTXpressI, Buddy Rich 
> signature model, never played, opening bid $2000). In other words, 
> avoid the ones that are too good or bad to be true. To take steps 
> against something going wrong, your can purchase extra protection 
> from Paypal, as well as take other possible steps. But I'd wager to 
> say that most of us have used ebay successfully at least once, and 
> that the statistics in this group, Drumzilla's, and others support a 
> miniscule probability of a mishap. That said, if you try ebay for a 
> Roland amp, and the seller stiffs you, I'm going out on the links 
> without a lightening rod during the next thunderstorm, hoping for 
> the worst.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3551198.4824677.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=170503
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> Damned right, I am!  If I can't see the merchandise and hear for 
myself that 
> it works properly before I hand the money over, what's the point.  

Well, that's the argument, and no defense does, or should, exist to 
counter it. It would be like saying, "You should jump out of 
airplanes because the chance of injury is really small." People sky 
dive because they want to and aren't afraid; other people don't, no 
justification necessary. But even though ebay's feedback system has 
become something of a racket, in which everyone is afraid to 
withhold praise for fear of a backlash that could damage his/her 
reputation, the negative feedback that does exist, reserved for the 
most severe cases, does provide a sense of whom you can trust. It's 
not foolproof--nothing is--but it helps. The great majority of 
people who sell on ebay have nothing to gain by courting bad faith. 
The people with an extensive history of sales and a small percentage 
of complaints aren't likely to be dishonest, and established stores 
that deal on ebay have much to lose through fraud. Personally, I 
like the idea of people providing goods to each other at reasonable 
prices, but, then again, I may be trusting by nature (hmmm). The 
risk of trust is always disappointment, or worse, somewhere along 
the line, but to me, the alternative doesn't sit as well. This is by 
no means intended as a universal recommendation of ebay--only a stab 
at representing one auctioneer's standpoint. But I'd venture to say 
that an ebay transaction for an item and/or price otherwise hard to 
find is a lot safer than jumping out of airplanes.

prog_uk said:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus"
> <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
>> > Maybe we should start a petition :-)
>>
>> Seriously, that's the sort of consumer clout that many of us hoped
>> to achieve with this group. Now that it's 700 strong, it's not
>> inconceivable that a concerted effort from us would make an impact
>> on Yamaha's electronic drum dept., which is fairly small and,
>> compared to the other majors, extraordinariy accessible.
>
> How would we go about this do you think?
>
> Chris

Hmmm well how about we start by setting up a dedicated domain with
messaging, downloads, tips & tricks and a highly active user forum as a
focal point for our group so we aren't lost in a sea of other yahooligans
with groups... oh wait... nevermind... :D

Vern

-- 
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG

After reading all the posts on this subject I think I may have a 
possible solution. I recently bought a 200w mcgregor bass amp and a 
cab with two 15 inch speakers from ebay. Like stephanie I was 
reluctant to part with my cash till I had seen it for myself. So I 
had to wait until something came up which was within travelling 
distance. After contacting the man he was happy enough to let me test 
it out and answered all my questions. As far as a keyboard amp goes, 
for the extra money they were charging in the shops I didnt think 
they were all that much better. The amp I have has a graphic and a 
couple of low/high filters and manages to reproduce all the sounds ok.
  I have put a couple of pics in the photos file under bass amp for 
you to see. hopefully a few others could add pics to let me see what 
they are using.
   bye for now.
 
Darren                                                                
                                                                      
                                                                      
  --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> Help everyone!
> 
> I would like recommendations on a keyboard amp that would be good 
for playing 
> the DTXpress II at home, jamming with a group, and ocassionally 
playing 
> somewhere.
> 
> I've looked at the Roland KC-350 (replaces the KC-300 with 120 
watts of power 
> among other things), the Roland KC-150 (replaces the KC-100 with 
more power 
> among other things), the Peavey KB/A 100 (75 watts), and the 
Behringer 
> KX-1200 (120 watts, but is purported to not sound as good as the 
Roland).

> 
> Suggestions or other amps to look at?  Thanks!!!
> Stephanie

Stephanie:
If you can find a used Samson KB 140, check it out. They are 
discontinued, but it's a 140 watt, 4 channel amp with a 15" woofer. I 
have one and it just kicks! I paid $210.00.

Stephen,

Welcome back. How's the hand?

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
<liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> Stephen,
> 
> Welcome back. How's the hand?
> 
> Ed

Hey, Ed!
Thanks. The hand works. My finger (pinky) is a bit rotated and I 
can't make a complete fist. However, I CAN type and I CAN drum and 
what else matters?
Stephen

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "brown8700" <brown8700@a...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
> Thanks. The hand works. My finger (pinky) is a bit rotated and I 
> can't make a complete fist. However, I CAN type and I CAN drum and 
> what else matters?
> Stephen

All right! Typing seems expendable, but drumming is a whole 
different animal. You're like the drumming counterpart to Larry 
Bird. Did you ever see the fingers in his right hand?

Okay guys:

I'm about a month awawy from deciding what brand amp to get.  I'd like to hear 
why I should by a Roland amp.  Is it the quality, really, or just the name 
brand recognition?  Is a Roland really better than a Behringer?

Thanks!
Stephanie

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> why I should by a Roland amp.  Is it the quality, really, or just 
the name 
> brand recognition?  Is a Roland really better than a Behringer?

Steph,

I'll tell you what I know and have heard. Roland amps do sound 
pretty good in my experience, but they don't have a lock on decent 
sound. There's no reason why a Yamaha, JBL, or any number of other 
serious music-industry amps won't strike you as just as good or 
better. Building an amp at a certain price point is hardly brain 
science these days. Build quality and attention to detail (not 
cutting corners in parts) are often the distinguishing 
characteristics. So far as Behringer is concerned, as I've written 
before in an attempt to be funny, the company appears to have more 
suits in their legal closet than Cher does in her backstage one. It 
has often been taken to task for stealing patents, Mackies' most 
notably, if memory serves. The reliability track record isn't 
stellar, either, though it tends to be hit or miss. A few people in 
this board are happy with the mixers that they've bought. Again, 
technically, many of these products are fairly simple designs; most 
of them are going to work okay.

Ed

Hi Claudio:

> My advice is buy with your ears. If an amp sounds good buy it.

You forgot...  I'm deaf, so I can't buy with my ears, but I don't want to buy 
on salespeople's ears either, because I can't know if they're telling the 
truth.  I'd like to know what other name brand amps are good (Ed mentioned 
Yamaha and JBL).  I'm trying to get a good amp at a better price.

Stephanie

Steph:

I've played my kit through several amps, all of which would be a good 
choice. They are; Samson KB140, Peavey KB 300, Roland KC500. They are 
all in the 140-150 watt range and have four channels. I went with the 
Samson only because I got a great deal on it.

Don't be tempted to go with any thing less than 150 watts or a 15" 
woofer. You'll be sorry, I'm certain, later on.

For the the $400 bucks you're looking to spend you should be able to 
find any of these used.

Stephen

> > Is a Roland really better than a Behringer?

Well, I just went to two different music stores, and I'm left 
scritch-scratching my head.  Not at the quality of the stuff I heard, but how 
the stuff held up or didn't.  I guess what I mean is, what I was looking at 
and how well some stuff worked in spite of the lower prices.

I listened to a number of different brands like Peavey, Roland, Behringer, 
JBL, etc.  I narrowed down to two choices, so I made direct comparisons 
between the Roland KC-300 and the Behringer KX-1200.  The KC-300 has a horn 
tweeter and a 12" sub, with 80 watts, I think.  The KX-1200 has a horn 
tweeter, a 5" midrange speaker (the only keyboard amp in the store that had a 
3-way speaker layout), and a 15" sub, with 120 watts.  Now given that, that's 
probably not a very fair comparison, given that a 15" sub is going to always 
move more air than a 12" sub, given similar speaker structure ratios.  On top 
of that, the magnet structure on a 15" is usually bigger than a 12" (given 
similarly-designed products).  Here's the surprise about the subs - they 
appeared to be exactly the same, as far as the material is concerned (the 
surround, the dimpling pattern on the cone, and the cap).  Now again, I 
realize that this wouldn't be a fair comparison, because of the difference in 
cabinet size, speaker size, power rating, etc.

What made me want to pick the Behringer over the Roland is how well it handled 
the lower end stuff.  The Roland was pretty good, but at fairly loud levels, 
(even though I'm profoundly deaf), I could hear the voice coil clanging 
against the back of the magnet (bottoming out).  This means that the magnet 
is probably not big or strong enough to handle such large movements 
accurately, a big enough power supply is not being used, or the damping 
factor (accuracy of cone movement control) is not tight enough.  The 
Behringer can put out more volume before it bottoms out.  On top of that, the 
low end stuff on the Behringer is extremely accurate.  It's on-the-dot and 
punchy, which is what I like.  The Roland sounded less accurate or muddy.  I 
was really surprised that I could hear that much of a difference (remind me 
to get my hearing aids checked - maybe I need to open up the sound on these 
hearing aids and see if I can handle it).  I was also surprised to see that I 
could definitely hear more of a presence in the midrange sounds from the 
Behringer (probably because of the midrange speaker).  I should also mention 
that this would be a better practice amp for me, because my hearing loss is 
more in the midrange area, by far.

I know that I would be very happy with this amp, as it was (gad!) loud enough 
for me and sounded just right for me.  I found this out today from a few 
musicians.  In Austin, (Vern, you probably know this) we tend to have two 
basic stage environments.  One is where you have a good-sized place which has 
a PA system in it.  That is common.  In this situation, an amp like this one 
is usually used as a monitor for the drummer to listen to, and the drum set 
is usually patched through the PA anyway.  In other places, like a coffee 
shop that doesn't have a PA system in it (not very many people with a full 
band play at these places), you would need a fair-sized amp to get up over 
the vocals and other instruments.  Also, it's not very often here that you 
would run into a PA system that can't stretch down the frequency range below 
the vocals.

So, next month, I'll be putting money down for the Behringer, at least on 
layaway for a couple of weeks, maybe.

Thanks, guys!
Stephanie

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> between the Roland KC-300 and the Behringer KX-1200.  The KC-300 
has a horn 
> tweeter and a 12" sub, with 80 watts, I think.  The KX-1200 has a 
horn 
> tweeter, a 5" midrange speaker (the only keyboard amp in the store 
that had a 
> 3-way speaker layout), and a 15" sub, with 120 watts.  

Hey Steph,

It is a bit surprising that you heard that much difference. 80 watts 
of power isn't much to drive the Roland, and who knows how high the 
current is. But 120 watts isn't much for the three-way Behringer 
either. If anything was amiss with the Roland at an elevated volume, 
it's probably the anemic power. A lot of things contribute to the 
sound of a speaker that may be more important than size of the 
elements--materials and crossover points/components/design for 
starters. In true subwoofers (capable of digging below 30 Hz), the 
tradeoff is often between deep but indistinct notes and punchy but 
thinner ones (which doesn't seem to apply in your case). But neither 
of these amp/speaker combinations is geared toward detail and grace; 
they don't need that kind of polish. Ironically, the telling feature 
of an amp's pedigree is often how good it sounds at low volumes. On 
a level playing field, the better amp is the one you don't have to 
turn up just to get a rise out of it. An amp that you have to crank 
too much is going to wear on you eventually, especially if it 
distorts and collapses into a noisy wash. In the case of an 
affordable amp for e-drums, the best that we could possibly hope for 
is one that will play loudly enough to do justice to percussion 
without distorting too much or losing all dynamics. Please keep us 
posted about any other discoveries you make, especially when you get 
your amp at home (which will be the best venuue to put it through 
its paces). This is a major issue here.

Ed

Hi Ed:

> In true subwoofers (capable of digging below 30 Hz), the
> tradeoff is often between deep but indistinct notes and punchy but
> thinner ones (which doesn't seem to apply in your case).

Yes, and I was surprised like I said before, because it's usually that as you 
say, but it sure wasn't to me.  I used to build car stereos for fun, and a 
big problem I used to have, with systems involving a few amplifiers and 
several speakers, including a 12" dual voice coil sub, would be that the bass 
would always lag quite a bit behind the rest of the beat in the music, so it 
would sound like "de-boom, de-boom, de-boom" instead of happening together.  
I solved that by putting a stiffening cap on the bass amp.  The last car I 
had, I had a 1 farad cap for the amp (big thing!).  Once I did that, then I 
had a lot more power plus accuracy, then I ran into another problem, which 
would be called upward spread mask, another term for hearing nothing but bass 
while a bass note hit.  You would hear the sound stage collapse literally at 
your ears everytime a bass note hit.  I added speakers and another 1 farad 
stiffening cap for the other amps, so the sound stage wouldn't collapse like 
that.  So, it takes plenty of power to drive things accurately.  So I'm used 
to things sounding good and right, for me.  I guess the amplified environment 
is fairly close to that of this speaker test I did.

> Ironically, the telling feature
> of an amp's pedigree is often how good it sounds at low volumes. On
> a level playing field, the better amp is the one you don't have to
> turn up just to get a rise out of it. An amp that you have to crank
> too much is going to wear on you eventually, especially if it
> distorts and collapses into a noisy wash. 

Just like I described up there...  And it's exhausting to me, because I have 
to "hear harder" than those with good hearing anyway.  Also, like I said 
about the midrange presence.  Something else I ought to have mentioned, is 
that it was really there with the Behringer amp even at lower volumes.  It 
seemed easier to listen to for me.  3-way systems do make a big difference to 
me because of my hearing loss.

> Please keep us
> posted about any other discoveries you make, especially when you get
> your amp at home (which will be the best venuue to put it through
> its paces). This is a major issue here.

I forgot to mention that I went to another store that had this amp and put the 
DTXpress II kit they have on it.  It plays VERY well, tight, good sounding.

Stephanie

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> 
wrote:
> big problem I used to have, with systems involving a few 
amplifiers and 
> several speakers, including a 12" dual voice coil sub, would be 
that the bass 
> would always lag quite a bit behind the rest of the beat in the 
music, so it 
> would sound like "de-boom, de-boom, de-boom" instead of happening 
together.  

Steph,

Right on. It's so nice to find someone who understands that 
expasperating slow bass. A lot of people scoff at the idea of a 
quick deep bass that can keep up with the rest of the music and the 
difficulties of achieving it, or finding it. But it's a genuinely 
audible phenomenon.

> I solved that by putting a stiffening cap on the bass amp.  The 
last car I 
> had, I had a 1 farad cap for the amp (big thing!).  Once I did 
that, then I 
> had a lot more power plus accuracy, then I ran into another 
problem, which 
> would be called upward spread mask, another term for hearing 
nothing but bass 
> while a bass note hit.  You would hear the sound stage collapse 
literally at 
> your ears everytime a bass note hit.  I added speakers and another 
1 farad 
> stiffening cap for the other amps, so the sound stage wouldn't 
collapse like 
> that.  So, it takes plenty of power to drive things accurately.  

It is a real art to make effective compromises in such designs. I 
have nothing but respect for the people who do it, even at 
relatively modest price points. Sound staging is a delicate 
enterprise, easily lost. I've heard vaunted seven speaker setups 
that couldn't hold a candle to an electronically and acoustically 
sophisticated stereo system. Most of my experience is with high-end 
electronics (primarily as a consumer and avid listener), which has 
been a hobby for about 30 years or so (at least until my daughter 
came along in 1999). 

Steph, you've certainly been able to overcome many of the limits in 
your hearing. You certainly put to good use what you have. It's 
inspirational, really.

Ed

Hey Ed:

> It is a real art to make effective compromises in such designs. I
> have nothing but respect for the people who do it, even at
> relatively modest price points. Sound staging is a delicate
> enterprise, easily lost. I've heard vaunted seven speaker setups
> that couldn't hold a candle to an electronically and acoustically
> sophisticated stereo system. 

Yeah, a great example of this would be car systems that would crank about 
145-150 db and just about disable the occupant inside during the SPL contest 
that another person would be outside to open the door and turn the sound down 
(I've seen this!).  BUT, the bass would be all you could hear.  I would 
rather enjoy the systems I build than listen to that.  See, with good 
hearing, people have more functional tolerance for a not-so-well designed 
system because their hearing can compensate for it and pull out the sounds 
that ought to be "more there," even though it's not that comfortable.  Me, 
I'm limited by my hearing, which means I need a sound environment that is 
very attuned to my hearing loss, in a very controlled manner.  Like I need an 
EQ to cut certain frequency spikes that my hearing aids generate and to boost 
certain frequency holes that my hearing aids or my hearing has trouble with.  
The sound stage, low-midrange and above, has to be strengthened beyond what 
most people can tolerate so that it sounds right or balanced for me.

Stereo equipment is something I have played with for about 20 years, so I've 
had time to play with some interesting stuff, even though they were not 
totally high-end stuff, but better than run-of-the-mill stuff.

> Steph, you've certainly been able to overcome many of the limits in
> your hearing. You certainly put to good use what you have. It's
> inspirational, really.

Well, thank you for your words.  I worked hard to build up the world of sound 
I live in.  I keep doing it, because every five years, I get new hearing aids 
which are much better than the previous ones.  It's like a few weeks ago, I 
learned that when you use a paper towel to clean the counter top, even if 
it's wet, it makes a very soft, high-pitched scratching sound.  Before that, 
I never knew that existed, that people heard that every time they wiped down 
a counter with paper towels.  Another one that's really freaky is those 
build-it-yourself furniture that comes in a box and you put it together 
yourself.  Remember those long hex-indented screws you put in with allen 
wrenches?  I knew for years that they would make a squeaking sound when you 
made the final turns in the screws.  What I didn't know what that these 
screws, when you first turn them in, make a hissing, scratching sound, until 
they start squeaking towards the end.   That happened within the last two 
months when I was helping someone.  I was absolutely flabbergasted, and I 
just sat there, wondering what was happening, given that I've already had 
these hearing aids for over two years now.  I then realized that maybe my 
sensitivity was coming back (because I'm practicing drums again, with my 
drumcorp sensitivity to timing) and being pushed even further because my 
hearing aids are better than the previous ones I had.  I'll have to see what 
else happens in the next few years.

Stephanie

Steph,

I know we've been through all this, and you've heard enough 
recommendations for the Roland KC-500. It's not the be-all-and-end- 
all, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention that Drumbalaya is 
selling it for $479. It's not less than $400, but it's a discount on 
a proven piece of a equipment. 

Ed

--- liberatusvirus wrote:
> ...I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention that
> Drumbalaya is selling it for $479.

One thing I did notice from NAMM was that Roland released a 
successor to this, the 550. It may be that the 500 comes down still 
further over the coming weeks.

Stewart

One other thing to consider about the KC-500 is that a newer version the
KC-550  is replacing it and you just might be able to get a discount on a
KC-500 at a local shop or online, since it is being replaced. 

OldGuyDrummer

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	liberatusvirus [SMTP:liberatusvirus@...]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:28 PM
> To:	DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:	[DTXpress] Re: Keyboard amp for drum set
> 
> Steph,
> 
> I know we've been through all this, and you've heard enough 
> recommendations for the Roland KC-500. It's not the be-all-and-end- 
> all, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention that Drumbalaya is 
> selling it for $479. It's not less than $400, but it's a discount on 
> a proven piece of a equipment. 
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
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> I know we've been through all this, and you've heard enough
> recommendations for the Roland KC-500. It's not the be-all-and-end-
> all, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention that Drumbalaya is
> selling it for $479. It's not less than $400, but it's a discount on
> a proven piece of a equipment.

Well, thanks, but I'm dealing with a fixed income situation, so I don't have 
the luxury of spending that kind of money right now.  Maybe later.

Stephanie

Hi Stephanie,

I got a sweet deal on a used Peavey KB 300. I use it in my apt when a 
buddy with guitar drops by. so far I am happy with it.

irrespective of the amp you decide on, if you don't want to take the 
ebay route, you can try www.craigslist.com

my 2 cents

AA

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie <sellison-unix@a...> wrote:
> > I know we've been through all this, and you've heard enough
> > recommendations for the Roland KC-500. It's not the be-all-and-
end-
> > all, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't mention that Drumbalaya is
> > selling it for $479. It's not less than $400, but it's a discount 
on
> > a proven piece of a equipment.
> 
> Well, thanks, but I'm dealing with a fixed income situation, so I 
don't have 

> the luxury of spending that kind of money right now.  Maybe later.
> 
> Stephanie