Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

I was wondering if any of you use Acoustic Cymbals, High-hats etc ...?

I went to a percussion workshop and started to miss the versatility of the
acoustic kit that I learned on. There are some things that the DTXpress does
not do well ... especially cymbal or high-hat sounds.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

Scott

Scott,

I can't argue with you there. Uniformly, the cymbal sounds within 
modules, as well as the physical triggers themselves, leave much to 
be desired. A lot of people who otherwise use e-percussion do not 
trust e-cymbals when they seriously record. I'm sure that I don't 
have to go into detail about what acoustics do that electronics 
cannot, at least at this relatively early stage of the game. That 
said, though the cymbal samples within modules cannot be altered to 
sound like your favorite acoustic line, usually you can find a 
couple of rides, layered or not, and crashes that are pretty good if 
properly set up. Finding the right decay and frequency cutoff are 
crucial--that is, after gain and min. velocity are settled. 

Though the gum rubber pads have definitely come a long way, their 
feel, and perhaps even electronic response, are still lacking. 
Stereo cymbals (triggering on edge via a rim switch and on bow via a 
piezo), which are the domain of gum rubber, are particularly 
finicky, often forcing a change in playing technique and always 
risking the occasional drop-out or unintended voice/choke. The 
Pintech Zenbal 14" round cymbals are probably the best of the lot, 
especially at the price, since they swing and trigger as expected 
most of the time. Once you get past the Roland CY-6, the rest of the 
Roland line is pretty reliable as well, although the price is 
difficult to justify. To my mind, though, gum rubber is tough to 
swallow as a hi hat cymbal if you spend a lot of time riding the hi 
hat (I do). 

In my opinion, the e-cymbals with the best feel--the ones that 
behave most (not completely) like acoustics--are the Harts and the 
Visu-lites. Unfortunately, the otherwise great Hart Ecymbal II 16" 
bronze ride (triggering via piezo on both bow and bell) doesn't 
appear to mate well with Yamaha modules; nor does the brass hat. The 
crashes (single-zone piezo), which are not bronze but coated, do, 
though over time the veneer starts to flake. The Visu-lite line of 
cymbals (dual piezo bow/bell or single piezo w/choke) is composed of 
durable acrylic. They love Yamaha, and their touch is as much 
like "real" cymbals as the Harts. I don't know whether the effect is 
partly paychological because of that extraordinary feel, but they 
also seem to make the Yamaha cymbal samples sound better (I'm not 
the only one who's said as much), maybe by transmitting a more 
robust signal across the bow and/or bell. The do have a more 
delicate way of mounting the triggers, leaving the heavy hardware 
off the cymbal proper. I've said enough about the Visu-lite hi hat 
assembly on this board. If you aren't aware of it, the cymbals work 
on an acoustic stand, opening and closing with full variability, 
just like the "real" thing. I left a file about it, w/pictures, in 
the Files section, but you could also check it out at Drumbalaya.com 
or Visu-lite.com.

Sorry about being so long-winded, and redundant. It's an important 
topic that can profit from as much input as we all give it. Although 
the e-cymbal situation is far from ideal, options exist to bring it 
closer to what many of us prefer to hear and feel.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, sboehmer <SBoehmer@n...> wrote:
> I was wondering if any of you use Acoustic Cymbals, High-hats 
etc ...?
> 
> I went to a percussion workshop and started to miss the 
versatility of the
> acoustic kit that I learned on. There are some things that the 
DTXpress does

> not do well ... especially cymbal or high-hat sounds.
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated
> 
> Scott

Ed,

Thanks for the response .. I appreciate the thorough ins and outs of all the
models available on the market today. My one resignation with buying more
toys is I already have a full complement of acoustic hardware that I was
thinking about integrating with the Yamaha. I have had the DTXpress for
about 3 1/2 years and truly love the way that I can manipulate the voices
and sounds that I can get. But unless I am missing something in the way I
have the kits set up I get a crash when I hit crash and nothing less. I want
to get the lighter, chimey sounds that I can get with acoustic but have not
gotten even by adding dual zone pads.

I would like to be able to,as I hit the high-hat harder get the slushy
sounds or partially open sounds that you can't seem to get with the current
high-hat pedal/pad combination.

Of course there are many more positives on the Yammy kit than negatives. It
is truly one of the best low end kits I have played. I we all could afford
the V-Drums there would be no need for this list and Nirvana would be
reached :) 

At some point the Visu-lites may be an option ... trying to justify to the
lady of the house is always the first show stopper ... but maybe someday!

Sorry for the equally long response ... I was just flushing out my
frustrations a bit!

Scott


>On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:26:35 -0000 "liberatusvirus"
<liberatusvirus@...> wrote.

>Scott,
>
>I can't argue with you there. Uniformly, the cymbal sounds within 
>modules, as well as the physical triggers themselves, leave much to 
>be desired. A lot of people who otherwise use e-percussion do not 
>trust e-cymbals when they seriously record. I'm sure that I don't 
>have to go into detail about what acoustics do that electronics 
>cannot, at least at this relatively early stage of the game. That 
>said, though the cymbal samples within modules cannot be altered to 
>sound like your favorite acoustic line, usually you can find a 
>couple of rides, layered or not, and crashes that are pretty good if 
>properly set up. Finding the right decay and frequency cutoff are 
>crucial--that is, after gain and min. velocity are settled. 
>
>Though the gum rubber pads have definitely come a long way, their 
>feel, and perhaps even electronic response, are still lacking. 
>Stereo cymbals (triggering on edge via a rim switch and on bow via a 
>piezo), which are the domain of gum rubber, are particularly 
>finicky, often forcing a change in playing technique and always 
>risking the occasional drop-out or unintended voice/choke. The 
>Pintech Zenbal 14" round cymbals are probably the best of the lot, 
>especially at the price, since they swing and trigger as expected 
>most of the time. Once you get past the Roland CY-6, the rest of the 
>Roland line is pretty reliable as well, although the price is 
>difficult to justify. To my mind, though, gum rubber is tough to 
>swallow as a hi hat cymbal if you spend a lot of time riding the hi 
>hat (I do). 
>
>In my opinion, the e-cymbals with the best feel--the ones that 
>behave most (not completely) like acoustics--are the Harts and the 
>Visu-lites. Unfortunately, the otherwise great Hart Ecymbal II 16" 
>bronze ride (triggering via piezo on both bow and bell) doesn't 
>appear to mate well with Yamaha modules; nor does the brass hat. The 
>crashes (single-zone piezo), which are not bronze but coated, do, 
>though over time the veneer starts to flake. The Visu-lite line of 
>cymbals (dual piezo bow/bell or single piezo w/choke) is composed of 
>durable acrylic. They love Yamaha, and their touch is as much 
>like "real" cymbals as the Harts. I don't know whether the effect is 
>partly paychological because of that extraordinary feel, but they 
>also seem to make the Yamaha cymbal samples sound better (I'm not 
>the only one who's said as much), maybe by transmitting a more 
>robust signal across the bow and/or bell. The do have a more 
>delicate way of mounting the triggers, leaving the heavy hardware 
>off the cymbal proper. I've said enough about the Visu-lite hi hat 
>assembly on this board. If you aren't aware of it, the cymbals work 
>on an acoustic stand, opening and closing with full variability, 
>just like the "real" thing. I left a file about it, w/pictures, in 
>the Files section, but you could also check it out at Drumbalaya.com 
>or Visu-lite.com.
>
>Sorry about being so long-winded, and redundant. It's an important 
>topic that can profit from as much input as we all give it. Although 
>the e-cymbal situation is far from ideal, options exist to bring it 
>closer to what many of us prefer to hear and feel.
>
>Ed
>
>--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, sboehmer <SBoehmer@n...> wrote:
>> I was wondering if any of you use Acoustic Cymbals, High-hats 
>etc ...?
>> 
>> I went to a percussion workshop and started to miss the 
>versatility of the
>> acoustic kit that I learned on. There are some things that the 
>DTXpress does
>> not do well ... especially cymbal or high-hat sounds.
>> 
>> Any input would be greatly appreciated
>> 
>> Scott
>
>
>
>Community email addresses:
>  Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
>  Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
>  Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>  List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
>
>Shortcut URL to this page:
>  http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>

Scott,

Resisting the buying mania is prudent on a lot of levels, even with 
all the temptations. I agree with you about the positive/negative 
balance. It helps ease the pain when your ears aren't hearing 
exactly what they want. Samples, sampling, and digital technology in 
general have to get much better before electronics can capture the 
subtleties that traditional cymbals and drums deliver as a matter of 
course. But we're not doing so bad, and judicious spending can get 
us even nearer to that elusive perfect moment. But not even the V-
Session or the acoustic set of your dreams can stop time forever. 
I'm waiting to hear what Yamaha's next offering will be in the 
module dept. See ya.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, sboehmer <SBoehmer@n...> wrote:
> Ed,
> 
> Thanks for the response .. I appreciate the thorough ins and outs 
of all the
> models available on the market today. My one resignation with 
buying more
> toys is I already have a full complement of acoustic hardware that 
I was
> thinking about integrating with the Yamaha. I have had the 
DTXpress for
> about 3 1/2 years and truly love the way that I can manipulate the 
voices
> and sounds that I can get. But unless I am missing something in 
the way I
> have the kits set up I get a crash when I hit crash and nothing 
less. I want
> to get the lighter, chimey sounds that I can get with acoustic but 
have not
> gotten even by adding dual zone pads.
> 
> I would like to be able to,as I hit the high-hat harder get the 
slushy
> sounds or partially open sounds that you can't seem to get with 
the current
> high-hat pedal/pad combination.
> 
> Of course there are many more positives on the Yammy kit than 
negatives. It
> is truly one of the best low end kits I have played. I we all 
could afford
> the V-Drums there would be no need for this list and Nirvana would 
be
> reached :) 
> 
> At some point the Visu-lites may be an option ... trying to 
justify to the
> lady of the house is always the first show stopper ... but maybe 
someday!
> 
> Sorry for the equally long response ... I was just flushing out my
> frustrations a bit!
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> >On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:26:35 -0000 "liberatusvirus"
> <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote.
> >Scott,
> >
> >I can't argue with you there. Uniformly, the cymbal sounds within 
> >modules, as well as the physical triggers themselves, leave much 
to 
> >be desired. A lot of people who otherwise use e-percussion do not 
> >trust e-cymbals when they seriously record. I'm sure that I don't 
> >have to go into detail about what acoustics do that electronics 
> >cannot, at least at this relatively early stage of the game. That 
> >said, though the cymbal samples within modules cannot be altered 
to 
> >sound like your favorite acoustic line, usually you can find a 
> >couple of rides, layered or not, and crashes that are pretty good 
if 
> >properly set up. Finding the right decay and frequency cutoff are 
> >crucial--that is, after gain and min. velocity are settled. 
> >
> >Though the gum rubber pads have definitely come a long way, their 
> >feel, and perhaps even electronic response, are still lacking. 
> >Stereo cymbals (triggering on edge via a rim switch and on bow 
via a 
> >piezo), which are the domain of gum rubber, are particularly 
> >finicky, often forcing a change in playing technique and always 
> >risking the occasional drop-out or unintended voice/choke. The 
> >Pintech Zenbal 14" round cymbals are probably the best of the 
lot, 
> >especially at the price, since they swing and trigger as expected 
> >most of the time. Once you get past the Roland CY-6, the rest of 
the 
> >Roland line is pretty reliable as well, although the price is 
> >difficult to justify. To my mind, though, gum rubber is tough to 
> >swallow as a hi hat cymbal if you spend a lot of time riding the 
hi 
> >hat (I do). 
> >
> >In my opinion, the e-cymbals with the best feel--the ones that 
> >behave most (not completely) like acoustics--are the Harts and 
the 
> >Visu-lites. Unfortunately, the otherwise great Hart Ecymbal II 
16" 
> >bronze ride (triggering via piezo on both bow and bell) doesn't 
> >appear to mate well with Yamaha modules; nor does the brass hat. 
The 
> >crashes (single-zone piezo), which are not bronze but coated, do, 
> >though over time the veneer starts to flake. The Visu-lite line 
of 
> >cymbals (dual piezo bow/bell or single piezo w/choke) is composed 
of 
> >durable acrylic. They love Yamaha, and their touch is as much 
> >like "real" cymbals as the Harts. I don't know whether the effect 
is 
> >partly paychological because of that extraordinary feel, but they 
> >also seem to make the Yamaha cymbal samples sound better (I'm not 
> >the only one who's said as much), maybe by transmitting a more 
> >robust signal across the bow and/or bell. The do have a more 
> >delicate way of mounting the triggers, leaving the heavy hardware 
> >off the cymbal proper. I've said enough about the Visu-lite hi 
hat 
> >assembly on this board. If you aren't aware of it, the cymbals 
work 
> >on an acoustic stand, opening and closing with full variability, 
> >just like the "real" thing. I left a file about it, w/pictures, 
in 
> >the Files section, but you could also check it out at 
Drumbalaya.com 
> >or Visu-lite.com.
> >
> >Sorry about being so long-winded, and redundant. It's an 
important 
> >topic that can profit from as much input as we all give it. 
Although 
> >the e-cymbal situation is far from ideal, options exist to bring 
it 
> >closer to what many of us prefer to hear and feel.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, sboehmer <SBoehmer@n...> wrote:
> >> I was wondering if any of you use Acoustic Cymbals, High-hats 
> >etc ...?
> >> 
> >> I went to a percussion workshop and started to miss the 
> >versatility of the
> >> acoustic kit that I learned on. There are some things that the 
> >DTXpress does
> >> not do well ... especially cymbal or high-hat sounds.
> >> 
> >> Any input would be greatly appreciated
> >> 
> >> Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >Community email addresses:
> >  Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
> >  Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
> >  Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >  List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
> >
> >Shortcut URL to this page:
> >  http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress 
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> >
> >

Scott:
I've used my A-cymbals on a couple of gigs where volume wasn't a 
concern. The two main drawbacks are the increase in stage volume and 
the disconnect, if you will, between hearing the drum sounds come 
from the monitor behind you and the cymbal sounds coming from in 
front of you. It's a little strange, kind of like an out of body 
experience, but I guess one could become accustomed to it. I, 
personally, didn't like it.
But, oh, how I do love the sound of REAL bronze!
Stephen

Stephen,

I have noticed that "disconnect" do to the way the PA system at the church I
play is set up ... the sound is behind and over my head. I am currently
using my old home stereo amp and Bose 901 speakers as my personal
monitor/amp. Still the feel is not right when I use the acoustic crash that
I use with mallets for sustains etc ... I am going to give it a try in the
next couple of weeks and see if I can get used to it and the others that I
play with can handle the difference in sound positions.

Thanks for the response ... I thought I was the only one who had this
problem.

Scott
----- Original Message -----

From: "brown8700" <brown8700@...>
To: <DTXpress@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 6:43 PM
Subject: [DTXpress] Re: Using Acoustic parts


> Scott:
> I've used my A-cymbals on a couple of gigs where volume wasn't a
> concern. The two main drawbacks are the increase in stage volume and
> the disconnect, if you will, between hearing the drum sounds come
> from the monitor behind you and the cymbal sounds coming from in
> front of you. It's a little strange, kind of like an out of body
> experience, but I guess one could become accustomed to it. I,
> personally, didn't like it.
> But, oh, how I do love the sound of REAL bronze!
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: DTXpress@onelist.com
>   Subscribe:    DTXpress-subscribe@onelist.com
>   Unsubscribe:  DTXpress-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>   List owner:   DTXpress-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/DTXpress
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>