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50g

50g

2007-09-07 by aa0p3

Would appreciate advice on how to get programs to work on my new 50g.

There are insufficient examples in the 50g manual provided on a CD.

The examples in the 49advancedmanual.pdf (which I downloaded) don't
seem to work on the 50g. After keying in a program, pressing 'enter'
key, then the store key; it tells me: "STO Error: Bad Argument Type"

What is being done incorrectly??

Thanks, Steve

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-07 by Dave Boyd

aa0p3 wrote:
> Would appreciate advice on how to get programs to work on my new 50g.
>
> There are insufficient examples in the 50g manual provided on a CD.
>
> The examples in the 49advancedmanual.pdf (which I downloaded) don't
> seem to work on the 50g. After keying in a program, pressing 'enter'
> key, then the store key; it tells me: "STO Error: Bad Argument Type"
>
> What is being done incorrectly??
>
> Thanks, Steve
>
>

OK. We will do this in RPN mode with the soft menus set. Go into MODE
and make sure the operating mode is RPN. Then, while still in the MODE
screen, find the soft key on the bottom labeled FLAGS, and press the key
below it (F1). Either press the down arrow for a while, or the up arrow
for a shorter while, to highlight flag 117 (Soft MENU) and make sure it
has a check mark beside it (this will affect the way your calculator
presents options to you. Instead of "choose from a list" dialogs, you
will get "press a softkey" menus instead -- lots of good features, which
were designed before the choose menus were added to the OS, work better
this way; you'll thank me later, especially after you use UNITS). Press
the soft key labeled OK twice to exit the MODE screen.

Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.

<< 2 + >>

You press, in sequence:

the Right-shift key
+ (this gets you the "program" brackets)
2
+
ENTER

The program is on the stack.

Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the keyboard above SIN.
This gets you a pair of single-quotes with the cursor between them.

Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while holding it down, press
the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the number 2, and then
release the ALPHA key. Press ENTER.

A variable name is on the stack.

Your stack has:
<< 2 + >>
'ADD2'

Press the STO key.

The program is now stored in the variable. Both disappear from the stack.

Press the VAR key to see your variables in the soft-menu area. One of
them, the first on the list probably, will be ADD2.

Press the 5 key, then press the ADD2 key. The 5 should be replaced by 7.

That's a program. Now try this: Press the right-shift, then press the
ADD2 soft-key. You have used the short-hand method of recalling the
program from the variable, so there's your program again on the stack.
Press the down-arrow key to edit it. Use the arrow keys to move to the
right of the 2, then press the backspace key. Now press the 3 key, then
ENTER.

You now have a program that adds three.

Press the left-shift key, then press the ADD2 key. You have just
replaced the old program in ADD2 with this new program using the
short-hand method. Verify this in any ways you like.

Now press the single-quote key again, and press the ADD2 key. Instead
of adding two, it sticks the name ADD2 in the single quotes. Press
ENTER and it's on the stack. Fool around with this kind thing. Write
longer, less trivial programs. Check Wikipedia for RPL. Try the
control structures you see. Lots of ways to loop and compare. Remember
that the comparison operator for EQUALS is '==' instead of '='. Ask
more questions later! Read the AUR, the Advanced User Reference! Have fun!


--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-08 by "Steven Huntsman"


Thanks for reply,  See below
=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:51:35 -0400
Dave Boyd <boydda@...> wrote:
> aa0p3 wrote:

>
> OK. We will do this in RPN mode with the soft menus set. Go into
>MODE
> and make sure the operating mode is RPN. Then, while still in the
>MODE
> screen,
find the soft key on the bottom labeled FLAGS, and press the
>key
> below it (F1). Either press the down
arrow for a while, or the up
>arrow
> for a shorter while, to highlight flag 117 (Soft MENU) and make sure
>it
> has a check mark beside it (this will affect the way your calculator
> presents options to
you. Instead of "choose from a list" dialogs,
>you
> will get "press a softkey" menus instead -- lots of
good features,
>which
> were designed before the choose menus were added to the OS, work
>better
> this way; you'll thank me later, especially after you use UNITS).
> Press
> the soft key labeled
OK twice to exit the MODE screen.
>
> Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.
>
>
<< 2 + >>
>
> You press, in sequence:
>
> the Right-shift key
> + (this gets
you the "program" brackets)
> 2
> +
> ENTER
>
> The program is on the stack.
>
> Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the keyboard above
>SIN.
> This gets you a pair
of single-quotes with the cursor between them.
>
> Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while holding
it down,
>press
> the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the number 2, and then
> release the
ALPHA key. Press ENTER.
>
> A variable name is on the stack.
>
> Your stack has:
>
<< 2 + >>
> 'ADD2'
>
> Press the STO key.

=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1
My stack has; (after pressing ENTER)

1:  ::  x<< % 2. x+ x'
     ID ADD2 x' x>> ;

When I press 'STO'
the message

! STO Error:
Bad Argument
Type

comes to the screen in a shadowed box.
and the contents of register 1 are still there

=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=
Note; I had HP41C calculators for many years and appreciatel RPN
However they have quite functioning and are more expensive to fix
than a new 50g.
The 41 had an instruction book that was worth while; the 50 doesn't!

The 48 & 49 manuals that I have found are helpful and close to the 50
BUT the programs do not enter without getting BAD ARGUMENT messages, thus far.
=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=

> The program is now stored in the variable. Both disappear
from the
>stack.
>
> Press the VAR key to see your variables in the soft-menu area. One
>of
> them, the first on the list probably, will be ADD2.
>
> Press the 5 key, then press the ADD2 key.
The 5 should be replaced
>by 7.
>
> That's a program. Now try this: Press the right-shift, then
press
>the
> ADD2 soft-key. You have used the short-hand method of recalling the
> program from
the variable, so there's your program again on the
>stack.
> Press the down-arrow key to edit it. Use the
arrow keys to move to
>the
> right of the 2, then press the backspace key. Now press the 3 key,
>then
> ENTER.
>
> You now have a program that adds three.
>
> Press the
left-shift key, then press the ADD2 key. You have just
> replaced the old program in ADD2 with this new program
using the
> short-hand method. Verify this in any ways you like.
>
> Now press the single-quote key
again, and press the ADD2 key.
> Instead
> of adding two, it sticks the name ADD2 in the single quotes.
Press
> ENTER and it's on the stack. Fool around with this kind thing.
> Write
> longer, less
trivial programs. Check Wikipedia for RPL. Try the
> control structures you see. Lots of ways to loop and
compare.
> Remember
> that the comparison operator for EQUALS is '==' instead of '='. Ask
> more
questions later! Read the AUR, the Advanced User Reference!
> Have fun!
>
>
> --
>
Dave Boyd
> "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
> like a house of cards.
Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-08 by Guy Teague

his instructions (and very detailed, clear ones they were) did not included hitting the store key.

were you able to follow the example? perhaps you need to do a hard reset first and try the example again.

now that i know how to program (!), how do i get my program into the custom menu in case i clear out the vars and delete it by mistake? or perhaps copy it to the sd card would be better? or both?

again, thanks for the great example dave. it shows up just how pitiful the documentation is. i've been using hp calcs since the hp55 but i seem to have to re-learn simple operations weekly on the 50g.

/guy

On 9/7/07, Steven Huntsman <aa0p@...> wrote:

Thanks for reply,  See below
=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:51:35 -0400
Dave Boyd <boydda@... > wrote:

> aa0p3 wrote:

>
> OK. We will do this in RPN mode with the soft menus set. Go into
>MODE
> and make sure the operating mode is RPN. Then, while still in the
>MODE
> screen, find the soft key on the bottom labeled FLAGS, and press the
>key
> below it (F1). Either press the down arrow for a while, or the up
>arrow
> for a shorter while, to highlight flag 117 (Soft MENU) and make sure
>it
> has a check mark beside it (this will affect the way your calculator
> presents options to you. Instead of "choose from a list" dialogs,
>you
> will get "press a softkey" menus instead -- lots of good features,
>which
> were designed before the choose menus were added to the OS, work
>better
> this way; you'll thank me later, especially after you use UNITS).
> Press
> the soft key labeled OK twice to exit the MODE screen.
>
> Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.
>
> << 2 + >>
>
> You press, in sequence:
>
> the Right-shift key
> + (this gets you the "program" brackets)
> 2
> +
> ENTER
>
> The program is on the stack.
>
> Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the keyboard above
>SIN.
> This gets you a pair of single-quotes with the cursor between them.
>
> Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while holding it down,
>press
> the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the number 2, and then
> release the ALPHA key. Press ENTER.
>
> A variable name is on the stack.
>
> Your stack has:
> << 2 + >>
> 'ADD2'
>
> Press the STO key.

=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1
My stack has; (after pressing ENTER)

1:  ::  x<< % 2. x+ x'
     ID ADD2 x' x>> ;

When I press 'STO'
the message

! STO Error:
Bad Argument
Type

comes to the screen in a shadowed box.
and the contents of register 1 are still there

=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=
Note; I had HP41C calculators for many years and appreciatel RPN
However they have quite functioning and are more expensive to fix
than a new 50g.
The 41 had an instruction book that was worth while; the 50 doesn't!

The 48 & 49 manuals that I have found are helpful and close to the 50
BUT the programs do not enter without getting BAD ARGUMENT messages, thus far.
=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=


> The program is now stored in the variable. Both disappear from the
>stack.
>
> Press the VAR key to see your variables in the soft-menu area. One
>of
> them, the first on the list probably, will be ADD2.
>
> Press the 5 key, then press the ADD2 key. The 5 should be replaced
>by 7.
>
> That's a program. Now try this: Press the right-shift, then press
>the
> ADD2 soft-key. You have used the short-hand method of recalling the
> program from the variable, so there's your program again on the
>stack.
> Press the down-arrow key to edit it. Use the arrow keys to move to
>the
> right of the 2, then press the backspace key. Now press the 3 key,
>then
> ENTER.
>
> You now have a program that adds three.
>
> Press the left-shift key, then press the ADD2 key. You have just
> replaced the old program in ADD2 with this new program using the
> short-hand method. Verify this in any ways you like.
>
> Now press the single-quote key again, and press the ADD2 key.
> Instead
> of adding two, it sticks the name ADD2 in the single quotes. Press
> ENTER and it's on the stack. Fool around with this kind thing.
> Write
> longer, less trivial programs. Check Wikipedia for RPL. Try the
> control structures you see. Lots of ways to loop and compare.
> Remember
> that the comparison operator for EQUALS is '==' instead of '='. Ask
> more questions later! Read the AUR, the Advanced User Reference!
> Have fun!
>
>
> --
> Dave Boyd
> "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
> like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.




--
We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest when the drugs began to take hold. --Hunter S. Tolkien

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-08 by Don Hart

You should have 2 things on your stack...
level 2 should have << 2 + >>
level 1 should have 'ADD2'

how you got...
1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
ID ADD2 x'x>> ;

...I'm not sure but, just in case, check flags 85 &
92. They should be off (no check mark)



> Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.
>
><< 2 + >>
>
> You press, in sequence:
>
> the Right-shift key
> + (this getsyou the "program" brackets)
> 2
> +
> ENTER
>
> The program is on the stack.
>
> Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the
keyboard above
>SIN.
> This gets you a pairof single-quotes with the
cursor between them.
>
> Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while
holdingit down,
>press
> the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the
number 2, and then
> release theALPHA key. Press ENTER.
>
> A variable name is on the stack.
>
> Your stack has:
><< 2 + >>
> 'ADD2'
>
> Press the STO key.

=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1
My stackhas; (after pressing ENTER)

1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
ID ADD2 x'x>> ;

When I press 'STO'
the message

! STO Error:
Bad Argument
Type

comes to thescreen in a shadowed box.
and the contents of register 1 are still there





____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-08 by Guy Teague

i apologize. i did forget the 'STO' command was part of the example.

old age--no cure in sight ...

/guy

On 9/7/07, Don Hart <ddhart1@...> wrote:
> You should have 2 things on your stack...
> level 2 should have << 2 + >>
> level 1 should have 'ADD2'
>
> how you got...
> 1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
> ID ADD2 x'x>> ;
>
> ...I'm not sure but, just in case, check flags 85 &
> 92. They should be off (no check mark)
>
>
>
> > Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.
> >
> ><< 2 + >>
> >
> > You press, in sequence:
> >
> > the Right-shift key
> > + (this getsyou the "program" brackets)
> > 2
> > +
> > ENTER
> >
> > The program is on the stack.
> >
> > Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the
> keyboard above
> >SIN.
> > This gets you a pairof single-quotes with the
> cursor between them.
> >
> > Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while
> holdingit down,
> >press
> > the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the
> number 2, and then
> > release theALPHA key. Press ENTER.
> >
> > A variable name is on the stack.
> >
> > Your stack has:
> ><< 2 + >>
> > 'ADD2'
> >
> > Press the STO key.
>
> =1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1
> My stackhas; (after pressing ENTER)
>
> 1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
> ID ADD2 x'x>> ;
>
> When I press 'STO'
> the message
>
> ! STO Error:
> Bad Argument
> Type
>
> comes to thescreen in a shadowed box.
> and the contents of register 1 are still there
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest
when the drugs began to take hold. --Hunter S. Tolkien

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-08 by Steven Huntsman

Hello Dave,
After clearing flags 85 & 92 your example program worked exactly as
described.
Thank you E6 for you help and response.

I will keep practicing as well as getting more referance material.
Hopefully some day I will understand why you up-to-date HP'ers say RPL
rather than RPN. Even the skimpy documentation uses RPL. Also I hope to
eventually learn the purpose of flags 85 & 92.

Thanks again,
Steve Huntsman

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:01:45 -0500, Don Hart <ddhart1@...> wrote:

> You should have 2 things on your stack...
> level 2 should have << 2 + >>
> level 1 should have 'ADD2'
>
> how you got...
> 1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
> ID ADD2 x'x>> ;
>
> ...I'm not sure but, just in case, check flags 85 &
> 92. They should be off (no check mark)
>
>
>
>> Key in a program, a simple one we will call 'ADD2'.
>>
>> << 2 + >>
>>
>> You press, in sequence:
>>
>> the Right-shift key
>> + (this getsyou the "program" brackets)
>> 2
>> +
>> ENTER
>>
>> The program is on the stack.
>>
>> Now press the single-quote key in the middle of the
> keyboard above
>> SIN.
>> This gets you a pairof single-quotes with the
> cursor between them.
>>
>> Press and hold the yellow ALPHA key, and, while
> holdingit down,
>> press
>> the keys with the yellow letters A D D and the
> number 2, and then
>> release theALPHA key. Press ENTER.
>>
>> A variable name is on the stack.
>>
>> Your stack has:
>> << 2 + >>
>> 'ADD2'
>>
>> Press the STO key.
>
> =1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1=1
> My stackhas; (after pressing ENTER)
>
> 1: :: x<< % 2. x+ x'
> ID ADD2 x'x>> ;
>
> When I press 'STO'
> the message
>
> ! STO Error:
> Bad Argument
> Type
>
> comes to thescreen in a shadowed box.
> and the contents of register 1 are still there
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new
> Car Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Re: 50g

2007-09-08 by jbmbryant

>
> I will keep practicing as well as getting more referance material.
> Hopefully some day I will understand why you up-to-date HP'ers say RPL
> rather than RPN. Even the skimpy documentation uses RPL.

RPN refers to the way math is done, ie RPN or ALG; RPL refers to the
programming language, Reverse Polish Lisp, which traditionally uses
RPN/stack based logic.

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-10 by Dave Boyd

Guy Teague wrote:
> his instructions (and very detailed, clear ones they were) did not included
> hitting the store key.
>
> were you able to follow the example? perhaps you need to do a hard reset
> first and try the example again.

Well, I basically only read this list during weekdays, so I apologize
for leaving those questions unanswered -- As someone else surmised, the
problem that Mr. Huntsman was having was due to the system flags 85 and
92 being set.

> now that i know how to program (!), how do i get my program into the custom
> menu in case i clear out the vars and delete it by mistake? or perhaps copy
> it to the sd card would be better? or both?

The custom menu is held in a variable called 'CST' in the Home
directory. So clearing out the wrong variables in the Home directory
would hose it there, too. (I'll leave the creating and modification of
the custom menu until later.) You are right that making backups to the
SD card (or just port 2 flash) is a good approach. There are a lot of
ways that you can archive data; some of them are built-in to the calc.
Look up ARCHIVE and RESTORE in the AUR. Also, look on www.hpcalc.org
for "archive" to find some helpful utilities to make it easier. My
personal favorite method is to install Filer6, by Prof. Wolfgang
Rautenberg, into the flash memory, and reassign the left-shift APPS key
to use Filer6 instead of the built-in Filer. Filer6 has a nice
backup/restore function that makes standard-format archives to either SD
or flash.

One thing to note is that the more things you have on your SD card, the
longer it takes for the calc to turn on. So I usually just keep the SD
card tucked in the battery compartment when I'm not using it.

> again, thanks for the great example dave. it shows up just how pitiful the
> documentation is. i've been using hp calcs since the hp55 but i seem to have
> to re-learn simple operations weekly on the 50g.

Yes. I'd really, really love the same kind of pocket reference the
HP-41 had. Of course, the 50G has many, many times the functions that
the 41 had, which is certainly part of the reason that no such document
exists. I have an HP-49G (not a HP-49G+) also, and it has a pocket ref,
but it fails on many levels, which underscores the difficulty.


--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-11 by Guy Teague

tks for the reply, dave. i spent several idle hours at work on the hpcalc.org page and did indeed install filer6 although i have not yet figured out how to assign it in place of the regular filer. the hp method seemed daunting, but an app i downloaded in hopes of easing the process of keystroke reassignment, 'keyman', was even more daunting. i could not follow the example in the author's readme, so have temporarily abandoned it, although it would be nice to assign keys as double clicks or long clicks and leave the default assignments alone.

i also downloaded and installed 'sdfiler' which allows more manipulation of the sd card than filer6. but when you try to move a file from the sd card into a directory on the sd card it keeps telling me it can't move a file to the same location. i'm still working on that.

good tip on the sd card slowdown. i figured it would be a good idea to just download a bunch of apps i wanted to try later and store them on the sd card until i was ready to try them. although this was less than 40mb of a 1gb sd card i did notice the startup time was increased dramatically and i had no idea why.

what i was really looking for on the site was some way to consolidate all my programs. they are scattered among vars, flash, library and apps. surely there is some way to run everything i want to have handy from one menu using aliases if necessary? i found a program called 'appman' (i think written by the same inscrutable author of 'keyman') which was the most frustrating app that i installed. basically the scanty documentation promised there was a way to rearrange the apps menu, to hide and add your own apps. but the only command for this program was called 'info' which yielded a list of variables and never told you how to manipulate any of them. what a tease! [g]

/guy

On 9/10/07, Dave Boyd <boydda@...> wrote:
Guy Teague wrote:
> his instructions (and very detailed, clear ones they were) did not included
> hitting the store key.
>
> were you able to follow the example? perhaps you need to do a hard reset
> first and try the example again.

Well, I basically only read this list during weekdays, so I apologize
for leaving those questions unanswered -- As someone else surmised, the
problem that Mr. Huntsman was having was due to the system flags 85 and
92 being set.

> now that i know how to program (!), how do i get my program into the custom
> menu in case i clear out the vars and delete it by mistake? or perhaps copy
> it to the sd card would be better? or both?

The custom menu is held in a variable called 'CST' in the Home
directory.  So clearing out the wrong variables in the Home directory
would hose it there, too.  (I'll leave the creating and modification of
the custom menu until later.)  You are right that making backups to the
SD card (or just port 2 flash) is a good approach.  There are a lot of
ways that you can archive data; some of them are built-in to the calc.
Look up ARCHIVE and RESTORE in the AUR.  Also, look on www.hpcalc.org
for "archive" to find some helpful utilities to make it easier.  My
personal favorite method is to install Filer6, by Prof. Wolfgang
Rautenberg, into the flash memory, and reassign the left-shift APPS key
to use Filer6 instead of the built-in Filer.  Filer6 has a nice
backup/restore function that makes standard-format archives to either SD
or flash.

One thing to note is that the more things you have on your SD card, the
longer it takes for the calc to turn on.  So I usually just keep the SD
card tucked in the battery compartment when I'm not using it.

> again, thanks for the great example dave. it shows up just how pitiful the
> documentation is. i've been using hp calcs since the hp55 but i seem to have
> to re-learn simple operations weekly on the 50g.

Yes.  I'd really, really love the same kind of pocket reference the
HP-41 had.  Of course, the 50G has many, many times the functions that
the 41 had, which is certainly part of the reason that no such document
exists.  I have an HP-49G (not a HP-49G+) also, and it has a pocket ref,
but it fails on many levels, which underscores the difficulty.


--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
  like a house of cards. Checkmate."  -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.



Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-11 by Dave Boyd

Guy Teague wrote:
> tks for the reply, dave. i spent several idle hours at work on the
> hpcalc.org page and did indeed install filer6 although i have not yet
> figured out how to assign it in place of the regular filer. the hp method
> seemed daunting, but an app i downloaded in hopes of easing the process of
> keystroke reassignment, 'keyman', was even more daunting. i could not follow
> the example in the author's readme, so have temporarily abandoned it,
> although it would be nice to assign keys as double clicks or long clicks and
> leave the default assignments alone.

<grin> Yes, I'm afraid you have some work ahead of you in learning how
the Hp-50G does things. When designing an 'interface', designers must
choose between "easy to learn" and "easy to use", the difference being
that "easy to learn" interfaces provide much more help, and many more
cues to the novice; they provide helpful prompts and a consistent,
single method for accomplishing a goal. Whereas, "easy to use"
interfaces usually provide far less help, but are very quick to use
after mastery has been achieved, are more efficient, usually offer more
possibilities, and often provide several ways to accomplish a particular
goal. The HP-50G's interface is heavily weighted to the latter end of
the scale. This is partly historical (they attempted to provide great
functionality on minimal hardware, and thus had no room for "help") and
partly a design philosophy.

Assigning a key is pretty simply at the core. Every possible keystroke
has a number, which includes the position of the key and the state of
all the modifier keys like ALPHA or LEFT SHIFT. There's also a
difference between pressing a shift key and letting go, and holding a
shift key down while pressing another key. All of these can be assigned
independently, so one key can do nine different things out of the box,
depending on shift state. That means you can make your calc very easy
to use, by assigning every task you have to a single keystroke, but hard
to learn (or remember, even with a cheat sheet). As it comes from the
box, most of the key-hold combos are unassigned, so the they default to
being the same as the un-held key.

Try this. We'll assign Filer6 to the LS-HOLD-APPS key. That way, we
can use the regular Filer by pressing LS (Left-Shift), letting go, and
pressing APPS; or we can use Filer6 by hold the LS key and pressing APPS.

The APPS key is number '21'. That's row 2, column 1. the default shift
state is '.1', no shift. The left shift is '.2', the right shift is
'.3', the ALPHA key is '.4'. So the left-shifted APPS key is '21.2'.
"Filer" is assigned to that by default. On my calc, << 2:Filer6 EVAL >>
is assigned there. The left-shift-hold-APPS keystroke is '21.21' (a '1'
in the hundredths place means "held"). To assign Filer6 to the
LS-Held-APPS key, we need a program that runs Filer6 from wherever we
put it. If it's in the HOME directory, << Filer6 >> is enough. If it's
in Flash, like mine, you need a program like the one I have, << 2:Filer6
EVAL >>. Make the shortest program you can make that runs Filer6, and
put it on the stack. Then put 21.21 on the stack. Then use the ALPHA
keys to type "ASN" , which take a program and a key number and assigns
the program to the key.

For any of these non-default assigned keystrokes to work, the "User
Keyboard" flag must be set. That flag is indicated by a small indicator
in the middle of the second line down on the display, which will be
either blank, '1US', or 'USR'. To toggle the state, use the left-shift
ALPHA key. Press that once, and '1US' appears; press it again, and
'USR' appears; press it again, and it goes blank. Try that. When
you're done, leave it in 'USR'. ('1US' means USR for one keystroke,
then blank. Bah!) Now try the LS-HOLD-APPS key. It should run Filer6.
Yay!

KEYMAN is pretty neat, and I use it, but you don't need it until you've
run out of keys to assign to programs. The way it works is, you make a
program, and stick it on the stack, just like we did above, to assign it
to a key. Then you make another program and put it on the stack also.
Then, with the KEYMAN menu, you press either 'IfL' or 'IfD'. Those take
both programs, and combine them into one program, which also includes
some code to detect a long-held key or double-tapped key (depending on
whether you chose 'IfL' or 'IfD'. Then you assign that program to a key
in the normal way, and now left-shift-held-APPS and left-shift-held-APPS
-held-longer do different things. You have just doubled (or more) the
number of possible keystrokes. I think that with various combinations
you can make one key do 21 different things. But who could remember them?

<snip>
> what i was really looking for on the site was some way to consolidate all my
> programs. they are scattered among vars, flash, library and apps. surely
> there is some way to run everything i want to have handy from one menu using
> aliases if necessary? i found a program called 'appman' (i think written by
> the same inscrutable author of 'keyman') which was the most frustrating app
> that i installed. basically the scanty documentation promised there was a
> way to rearrange the apps menu, to hide and add your own apps. but the only
> command for this program was called 'info' which yielded a list of variables
> and never told you how to manipulate any of them. what a tease! [g]

Heh! I use this one, too. When I first read the docs, they were
inscrutable. Then I became more comfortable with the calc, learning how
to program it, and especially how to manipulate lists. Then with that
experience, I re-read the doc, and suddenly it was clear; setting up
APPSMAN is all list management, and docs assumed I knew how to do that,
since it was central to knowing how to use the calc effectively anyway.
The language of the calc is RPL, Reverse Polish Lisp, and lists are
the key to Lisp.

Before you customize your calc much more than what I've shown, you will
probably want to become really familiar with all of the ways it does
things. Read the AUR. Read the various little PDFs. There's no
substitute. At first, it won't be very easy, but once you get your
around the 'HP Way', it becomes much easier.

--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-12 by Guy Teague

can't tell you how much i appreciate you taking the time to do this dave. if you write a book you'll have at least one sale assured. i'll send a deposit!

On 9/11/07, Dave Boyd <boydda@...> wrote:

 
Assigning a key is pretty simply at the core.  Every possible keystroke
has a number, which includes the position of the key and the state of
all the modifier keys like ALPHA or LEFT SHIFT.  There's also a
difference between pressing a shift key and letting go, and holding a
shift key down while pressing another key.  <del>

Try this.  We'll assign Filer6 to the LS-HOLD-APPS key.  That way, we
can use the regular Filer by pressing LS (Left-Shift), letting go, and
pressing APPS; or we can use Filer6 by hold the LS key and pressing APPS.

<Del>Now try the LS-HOLD-APPS key.  It should run Filer6.
  Yay!

 
yay indeed! with a hiphiphurrah! 

i even went one step further and assigned the system filer to the held key and filer6 to the 'leftshift files' key since i much prefer filer6 but want to have the original around. now i'll just have to remember that 'usr' icon since i've never paid any attention to it previously. i guess the trigger will be that i'll get the system filer instead of filer6 if its not set. 

KEYMAN is pretty neat, and I use it, but you don't need it until you've
run out of keys to assign to programs.  <Del>

now that i know this trick, i think i'll leave keyman alone for a while. 

<Del>
--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
  like a house of cards. Checkmate."  -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

 
speaking of making it easy for the user, the most useful app i found in my digging was called 'formo' by dante camargo who is so good a programmer that even his spanish-only programs such as 'recta' and 'libkit' are easier to use than 99% of the english language programs. and i don't speak a word of spanish.

anyway, since i'll be using formo constantly, i resent having to dig into the library for it, especially since i have yet to find a way to safely and easily rearrange the items in the library directory in order to anchor it as the first selection. that's why i was hoping i could use appman to put this program into the apps list. (btw: thought i'd mention that utool installs itself into apps automatically, the only app i've yet installed that did that).

so how do i address a library file whose executable is down one directory and execute it from an assignable key or my custom menu? i suppose i would have to include a 'chdir' command in the eval statement perhaps? but i'm even having trouble determining the exact name of the actual executable considering the 5-char truncation.

thanks,

/guy

Re: 50g

2007-09-12 by Giancarlo

--- In 50g@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Teague" <accts@...> wrote:

> yay indeed! with a hiphiphurrah!
>
> i even went one step further and assigned the system filer to the
held key
> and filer6 to the 'leftshift files' key since i much prefer filer6
but want
> to have the original around. now i'll just have to remember that
'usr' icon
> since i've never paid any attention to it previously. i guess the
trigger
> will be that i'll get the system filer instead of filer6 if its not
set.

Hi Guy.
Sorry if I jump in, but I have at least for a couple of reasons.

First, I want to agree with your and congratulate myself with Dave
for his thorough, well-written and helpful posts - thanks Dave!

Second, if you want your 50g to start with the USR mode ON, then all
you have to do is save a program like:
\<< -62 SF \>>
into a variable that you will name 'STARTUP' into the HOMe directory.
By doing that, at every warmstart (i.e. [ON]+[F3]) the STARTUP
variable will be evaluated and the -62 flag set (i.e., USR mode
turned on).
By the way, you can see that you're able to have your 50G do what you
want by putting anything you like into the STARTUP var.... ;-)
Hope this helps.
Best regards.
Giancarlo

Re: [50g] Re: 50g

2007-09-12 by Guy Teague

hi giancarlo: 

i indeed was going to ask that very question when i figured out that my usr mode did not survive a warm reset. but i had remembered seeing some docs about a startup list in my recent reading and i was going to find those docs and read them before i asked the question.

you are the author of hpuseredit, are you not? i downloaded that just this week after i saw a tip on the hpforum and although i have to hold my nose everytime i use windows, yours is a very nice and useful program and you've even incorporated the emu48 function. as always i wish for mac versions of everything even though it is now as easy to run windows (or linux) on a mac as it is to run mac.

grazie millione! (abitate in Italia?)

/guido [g]



On 9/12/07, Giancarlo <giancarlo.mattioni@...> wrote:
--- In 50g@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Teague" <accts@...> wrote:

> yay indeed! with a hiphiphurrah!
>
> i even went one step further and assigned the system filer to the
held key
> and filer6 to the 'leftshift files' key since i much prefer filer6
but want
> to have the original around. now i'll just have to remember that
'usr' icon
> since i've never paid any attention to it previously. i guess the
trigger
> will be that i'll get the system filer instead of filer6 if its not
set.

Hi Guy.
Sorry if I jump in, but I have at least for a couple of reasons.

First, I want to agree with your and congratulate myself with Dave
for his thorough, well-written and helpful posts - thanks Dave!

Second, if you want your 50g to start with the USR mode ON, then all
you have to do is save a program like:
\<< -62 SF \>>
into a variable that you will name 'STARTUP' into the HOMe directory.
By doing that, at every warmstart (i.e. [ON]+[F3]) the STARTUP
variable will be evaluated and the -62 flag set (i.e., USR mode
turned on).
By the way, you can see that you're able to have your 50G do what you
want by putting anything you like into the STARTUP var.... ;-)
Hope this helps.
Best regards.
Giancarlo




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R: [50g] Re: 50g

2007-09-12 by Mattioni Giancarlo

Hi Guy.
Well, *unfortunately* I am not the author of HPUserEdit - Roger Broncano Reyes (rgb@...)is the author of that amazing piece of software :-)
I'm just trying to help him with some minor debugging (have you noticed the fault you get when selecting the "Print preview" option?) and with some advertising for his program, which I really like.
 
And, yes, I live in Italy :-) just around its middle part, along the Adriatic sea shore - not so bad, you know ;-)
 
Best regards.
Giancarlo

Da: 50g@yahoogroups.com [mailto:50g@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di Guy Teague
Inviato: mercoledì 12 settembre 2007 09:43
A: 50g@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [50g] Re: 50g

hi giancarlo: 

i indeed was going to ask that very question when i figured out that my usr mode did not survive a warm reset. but i had remembered seeing some docs about a startup list in my recent reading and i was going to find those docs and read them before i asked the question.

you are the author of hpuseredit, are you not? i downloaded that just this week after i saw a tip on the hpforum and although i have to hold my nose everytime i use windows, yours is a very nice and useful program and you've even incorporated the emu48 function. as always i wish for mac versions of everything even though it is now as easy to run windows (or linux) on a mac as it is to run mac.

grazie millione! (abitate in Italia?)

/guido [g]



On 9/12/07, Giancarlo <giancarlo.mattioni@...> wrote:
--- In 50g@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Teague" <accts@...> wrote:

> yay indeed! with a hiphiphurrah!
>
> i even went one step further and assigned the system filer to the
held key
> and filer6 to the 'leftshift files' key since i much prefer filer6
but want
> to have the original around. now i'll just have to remember that
'usr' icon
> since i've never paid any attention to it previously. i guess the
trigger
> will be that i'll get the system filer instead of filer6 if its not
set.

Hi Guy.
Sorry if I jump in, but I have at least for a couple of reasons.

First, I want to agree with your and congratulate myself with Dave
for his thorough, well-written and helpful posts - thanks Dave!

Second, if you want your 50g to start with the USR mode ON, then all
you have to do is save a program like:
\<< -62 SF \>>
into a variable that you will name 'STARTUP' into the HOMe directory.
By doing that, at every warmstart (i.e. [ON]+[F3]) the STARTUP
variable will be evaluated and the -62 flag set (i.e., USR mode
turned on).
By the way, you can see that you're able to have your 50G do what you
want by putting anything you like into the STARTUP var.... ;-)
Hope this helps.
Best regards.
Giancarlo




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Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-12 by Dave Boyd

Guy Teague wrote:
> can't tell you how much i appreciate you taking the time to do this dave. if
> you write a book you'll have at least one sale assured. i'll send a deposit!

When I first got my HP-49G+, I had no idea of how to do these things.
So I started lurking on Usenet in the comp.sys.hp48 group. The people
there are (for the most part) very knowledgeable, and are very willing
share that knowledge, although of course you have to put up with a small
amount of the usual Usenet hooey, trolls and such, who are less
prevalent than in other groups but not entirely absent. I read that
group, played with the calc (which is essential), and printed and read
the most important docs, which are the User Manual and Advanced User
Reference. Now, my knowledge is tiny beside some of the others,
particularly the regulars on comp.sys.hp48, but I know enough to be
helpful here, and my enthusiasm hasn't run out yet, so I can help...

<snip>
> i even went one step further and assigned the system filer to the held key
> and filer6 to the 'leftshift files' key since i much prefer filer6 but want
> to have the original around. now i'll just have to remember that 'usr' icon
> since i've never paid any attention to it previously. i guess the trigger
> will be that i'll get the system filer instead of filer6 if its not set.

In my case, Filer6 is assigned to the regular key, and if I want the
regular Filer, I could just unset user mode. (I have a program called
FMAN.BIN assigned to the held key, but I shouldn't really have done
that, since I use it so rarely.)

<snip>
> speaking of making it easy for the user, the most useful app i found in my
> digging was called 'formo' by dante camargo who is so good a programmer that
> even his spanish-only programs such as 'recta' and 'libkit' are easier to
> use than 99% of the english language programs. and i don't speak a word of
> spanish.

(goes and looks) Yes, that does seem like a very useful piece of
software, and quite "easy to learn". I myself don't like it much as it
stands, since it doesn't really behave like a "normal" HP program, and
provides far too much "help" I don't really want. It's also reliant on
changing the state of several flags, which it leaves changed when I use
the standard ON key to cancel out of it.

> anyway, since i'll be using formo constantly, i resent having to dig into
> the library for it, especially since i have yet to find a way to safely and
> easily rearrange the items in the library directory in order to anchor it as
> the first selection. that's why i was hoping i could use appman to put this
> program into the apps list. (btw: thought i'd mention that utool installs
> itself into apps automatically, the only app i've yet installed that did
> that).

Well, you could in fact use APPMAN for that. Or you could assign it to
a key.

> so how do i address a library file whose executable is down one directory
> and execute it from an assignable key or my custom menu? i suppose i would
> have to include a 'chdir' command in the eval statement perhaps? but i'm
> even having trouble determining the exact name of the actual executable
> considering the 5-char truncation.

You're correct, essentially. I'll go stick FORMO in my calc in my
HOME/Misc directory... Hmm, it's a library, and therefore doesn't
really belong there. Instead, I'll put it in my Flash memory, port 2.
I'll just use Filer6 to move it to Flash, done. I reboot using ON-C to
automatically attach it. I press the CAT key (RS-SYMB), then ALPHA-F,
and scroll down to see that the command is FORMOS. OK. So, I can make
a program << FORMOS >> to attach to a key. What key? Maybe the EQW
key, with the RS held? That currently makes a set of tickmarks I don't
use much, so it seems reasonable. OK, row 4, col 3, held RS, so that's
43.31, then ASN. Done.

To execute a program for deeper within your directory structure, you
could make a program like this:

<< PUSH HOME Misc FMAN.BIN EVAL POP >>

PUSH saves a copy of the current flags and directory.

HOME changes to the HOME directory.

Misc changes to the Misc subdirectory, if you have one, and you are in HOME.

FMAN.BIN EVAL executes FMAN.BIN.

POP restores the saved flags and directory from the previous PUSH, so we
go back to where we were before changing to HOME/Misc.

I can also type PUSH, and then modify my STARTUP program to say << POP
PUSH >>, so that whenever I start my calc it puts my flags back the way
I had them before the previous PUSH.


--
Dave Boyd
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall
like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P.

Re: R: [50g] Re: 50g

2007-09-12 by Guy Teague

sorry about the mix up on hpuseredit giancarlo. i must have seen your reply in the hpmuseum forum and got you mixed up.

to live in italy, not so bad indeed! non ce male! (i love the understatement)

many, many years ago i was stationed in naples. i loved it and tried to stay when i got out of the navy. i lived in lago di patria (outside pozzuolli) where mussolini stationed his sea planes during the war and where i rented a villa from a real contessa who used to own a castle there before debts got the best of her and she was reduced to renting off the outbuildings to people like me. my 'villa' was actually what used to be the quarters of the servants who looked after the castle stables.

i don't know if you are old enough to remember, but the red brigade left premier aldo moro's body in a station wagon only a few kilometers from where i lived on the road between naples and rome.

i'd still like to get back someday although i could never understand the language enough to function independently or hold a job. what's the old phrase: 'vedere napoli, e morte'? i'm not even an immigrant and i feel that way.

/guy

On 9/12/07, Mattioni Giancarlo <giancarlo.mattioni@...> wrote:
Hi Guy.
Well, *unfortunately* I am not the author of HPUserEdit - Roger Broncano Reyes (rgb@...)is the author of that amazing piece of software :-)
I'm just trying to help him with some minor debugging (have you noticed the fault you get when selecting the "Print preview" option?) and with some advertising for his program, which I really like.
 
And, yes, I live in Italy :-) just around its middle part, along the Adriatic sea shore - not so bad, you know ;-)
 
Best regards.
Giancarlo

 

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-12 by Guy Teague

On 9/12/07, Dave Boyd <boydda@...> wrote:
Guy Teague wrote:
<snip>
> speaking of making it easy for the user, the most useful app i found in my
> digging was called 'formo' by dante camargo who is so good a programmer that
> even his spanish-only programs such as 'recta' and 'libkit' are easier to
> use than 99% of the english language programs. and i don't speak a word of
> spanish.

(goes and looks)  Yes, that does seem like a very useful piece of
software, and quite "easy to learn".  I myself don't like it much as it
stands, since it doesn't really behave like a "normal" HP program, and
provides far too much "help" I don't really want.  It's also reliant on
changing the state of several flags, which it leaves changed when I use
the standard ON key to cancel out of it.

you know, i noticed that my flag states were not being left alone, but i had installed so many apps to try at once that i had not gotten around to tracking down which app was trashing them. it's disappointing to learn that this app is the culprit. i'll find a way to save the state of my flags and just pull the bkup file back after i finish with formo i guess.

i realize that after the first 3 uses that formos gets unwieldy because of the 'helps' provided and you start wishing you could bypass some of the menu structure. but then again, you could come back 6 months later and operate the program without re-learning your shortcuts. as you say, there is always that tradeoff between power and ease of use.
 

<Del>

 

> so how do i address a library file whose executable is down one directory
> and execute it from an assignable key or my custom menu? i suppose i would
> have to include a 'chdir' command in the eval statement perhaps? but i'm
> even having trouble determining the exact name of the actual executable
> considering the 5-char truncation.

You're correct, essentially.  I'll go stick FORMO in my calc in my
HOME/Misc directory...  Hmm, it's a library, and therefore doesn't
really belong there.  Instead, I'll put it in my Flash memory, port 2.
I'll just use Filer6 to move it to Flash, done.  I reboot using ON-C to
automatically attach it.  I press the CAT key (RS-SYMB), then ALPHA-F,
and scroll down to see that the command is FORMOS.  OK.  So, I can make
a program << FORMOS >> to attach to a key.  What key?  Maybe the EQW
key, with the RS held?  That currently makes a set of tickmarks I don't
use much, so it seems reasonable.  OK, row 4, col 3, held RS, so that's
43.31, then ASN.  Done.

i had forgotten that library program names get inserted into the catalog. great tip!
 

To execute a program for deeper within your directory structure, you
could make a program like this:

<< PUSH HOME Misc FMAN.BIN EVAL POP >>

PUSH saves a copy of the current flags and directory.

HOME changes to the HOME directory.

Misc changes to the Misc subdirectory, if you have one, and you are in HOME.

FMAN.BIN EVAL executes FMAN.BIN.

POP restores the saved flags and directory from the previous PUSH, so we
go back to where we were before changing to HOME/Misc.

I can also type PUSH, and then modify my STARTUP program to say << POP
PUSH >>, so that whenever I start my calc it puts my flags back the way
I had them before the previous PUSH.

i'll have to play with this last section before it quite sinks in. i had gotten around to noticing that when i changed directories my custom menu items changed also. as if each directory had its own 'cst' variable. is that what you are saying? that each directory underneath home does not inherit homes parameters such as flags and variables?

/guy

Re: [50g] 50g

2007-09-13 by Guy Teague

had some spare time tonight at work so i spent it consolidating all the good info that dave supplied and used the tip by giancarlo.

so, after one complete set of batteries and the great info on the list i have:

buttons on my custom menu representing:

sdfiler (a filer for the sd card)
backup (backs up ports to sd card)
bios (shows sys info and mem use and allows adding to startup file)
foto (depth of field &c)
trig (draws and calculates triangles)
utool (for units manipulation)

in additiion, i have 'filer6' assigned to the (ls+files) function and 'formos' assigned to the (rsh+eqw) function.

tks to the tip by giancarlo i have a startup file that will return the 'usr' state after a warmstart.

this is the most progress i've made with this calculator in all the time i owned it. i also had a couple of 38/39 models and a couple of 48/49 models and i never got very far with them either. didn't help that the quality of some were abysmal.

ok, here's my tip to share:

put the 'MENU' command in the custom menu (CST variable). this will allow you to re-write the CST variable from inside itself so to speak just by putting the new list representing the CST variable on the stack, then calling up your (old) CST and overwriting it using the MENU button. this tickles me every time i think about it--i'm easily amused! it's akin to the abstract thinking necessary to use indirect memory where you use a memory location as an indice to another. or like running windows in a window on my mac where an entire operating system environment is just one of a million other files on the host.

/guy



R: [50g] Re: 50g

2007-09-13 by Giancarlo

--- In 50g@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Teague" <accts@...> wrote:
Hi Guy!

>
> sorry about the mix up on hpuseredit giancarlo. i must have seen
your reply
> in the hpmuseum forum and got you mixed up.

Please, don't get me wrong: I got your mix up as a compliment, as I
really *would have liked* to be the author :-)


> i don't know if you are old enough to remember, but the red brigade
left
> premier aldo moro's body in a station wagon only a few kilometers
from where
> i lived on the road between naples and rome.

Yup, I'm 41 now, and I can still remember well those days between
march and may 1978....

> what's the old
> phrase: 'vedere napoli, e morte'? i'm not even an immigrant and i
feel that
> way.

:-) The exact phrase is "vedi Napoli e poi muori", and its literal
translation would sound like "see Naples and then you can die" -
despite the seeming gallows humour, it simply states that one has to
see Naples at least once in his life...

Take care.
Giancarlo

P.S.: for the other contributors: I apologize for the off-topic
discussion, but I've always thought forums like places where, as in a
pub in front of a glass of beer, people friendly share their common
interests and curiosities...