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Subject: Re: Daughter of MOAS

From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...
Date: 1999-04-05

I want it to be clear it is NOT a MAQ clone.

I have NO intent of any real-time patterm memory storage (ie the uP records
the pots
turning in real-time into memory for saving). And, this is NOT a MIDI

All sequencers are controlled by DIGITAL logic. They HAVE to be. Even the 25
year old Moog 960
uses digital (RTL!!) logic.

A sequencer is a digital shift register that gates analog voltages based on
a clock pulse.

I agree with Gur that if you overload a uP based system you will detect
lags/delays. So this is
EXACTLY why I want a simple, small sequencer.

Now there are 3 ways to make that digital control logic:

a) use 74HCxxx ICs
b) use a FGPA like an Altera or Xilinx
c) use a uP

The trouble with (a) and (b) is you cannot add features. The trouble with
(a) is it takes too many parts.
The trouble with (b) is that FPGAs tend to have a small lifetime then they
are replaced with bigger, faster
versions. And the development platforms are $$$ ($99 Cypress WARP is the
cheapest I've used).

The 8051 has been around for 15 years. The price is like $5/chip and 6
people make them. There are FREE
tools to write code. And, I can add features easily with a download

A sequencer doesn't have a "sound". Rather, the point Gur is trying to make
is that Doepfer made too much stuff
with an underpowered uP and the end result is disappointing.

What I want is a smaller Moog 960 with a few MOTM-like additions. I don't
plan to spend 1000 hours on the code. Rather,
a sequencer that is easy to use and has a LOW parts count.

Plus, I want to post the source code on the web and have all you folks hack
it to death and develop your own
versions (Hack #1 is I can show you how to add your name in the display on

I was "doing the numbers" and it is possible to get the kit closer to $300.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gur Milstein <gur-m@...>
To: <>
Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 8:59 PM
Subject: [motm] Re: Daughter of MOAS

>From: Gur Milstein <gur-m@...>
>Hi Paul,John.
>sory i did not want it to sound angree,this are my points:
>i own a maq ver-3 for a long time ,i'm allso was very related to doepfer
>sequencer line for more then 4 years.
>i saw how he (doepfer) made so many mistake's with his sequencer's line.
>he ferst started with the maq ver-1 which was ok,but then he went for
>ver-2 and ver-3 which all were great by ther softwere desighn but
>they were sound bad and lots of bugs and the most importent
>this sequencers were hard to make music with be cause of ther non analog
>then he made the giant shaltwerk which was the memory of paterns
>that the maq was making,and was a stand alone triger sequencer,but agin
>it sound bad and was very hard to work with.
>i know so many guy's frome germany how bought this goodis and dont
>use them be cause of ther non analog nature.
>then ther was a big yell in germany for the real thing,doepfer sales
>was so down that he desided to finely make it.
>so he made a great desighn for a analog sequencer 8/2 with lots of analog
>goodis in side.
>and he made a great quantizer that makes work easy.
>now if you think about it then you realize that his analog stuff
>is competit with the digital he sale.
>now i have been thrugh this story once and i dont want to repet it
>agin,its a sad story.
>it would take time til guy's would undersand that the analog quality
>does not end up only in the sound but allso in the control.
>moog was end up be cause guy's think that digital sound is gone
>be beter,but many was wrong as analog come back big time.
>Paul i know that it do sound crazy to make all this function
>with analog IC but at the end it would be sound like a analog control.
>serge sequencer is most analog and it shure is sound analog.
>digital have delay time ,digital have bugs,and digital is cold compering
>to a true warm analog.
>ok you want to make a digital sequencer then make the MOAS a giant
>digital sequencer,but please dont make the small sequencer a digital one.
>agin i'm sory if i offend you i just want the MOTM kip bing the best
>analog modular system in the world(i realy think so).
>i dont want to see you going the same mistake doepfer did.
>and yes a uP can make it but a uP can all so make a fu.. nord modular
>and we all know how it sounds compering to analog.
>love you all
>Gur Milstein
>At 07:18 PM 4/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>>I don't understand the issues here.
>>You want a quantizer: what is a "quantizer"? Well it takes a continuous
>>and assigns it to discrete steps. What better to do this than a uP? That
>>way, under
>>software, you can have YES/NO quantizing for EVERY pot. You can quantize
>>chromatic and non-chromatic scales. You can save the setting in EEPROM.
>>can have
>>equal time-per-step like a Moog 960 JUST AS EASY as you can have a data
>>entry knob
>>and set the time between notes (relative or in MIDI clocks).
>>This sequencer DOES NOT REQUIRE MIDI at all. The "default" configuration
>>a super Moog 960.
>>The 8051 has a FREE UART that is 100% MIDI compatible and I have the code
>>already written!
>>(used in my Master's Thesis).
>>You want different triggers? What better way than a uP? Repeat on stage N,
>>random stages, cycle N times then stop,
>>wait for N pulses then RUN, etc etc etc. This is HARD in hardware but EASY
>>in software. All you do is hook the
>>clock to the Interrupt pin.
>>I'm NOT trying to make a Maq. I'm trying NOT to use 25 chips to do what a
>>8051 can do in 3.
>>Paul S.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gur Milstein <gur-m@...>
>>To: <>
>>Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 6:53 PM
>>Subject: [motm] Re: Daughter of MOAS
>>>From: Gur Milstein <gur-m@...>
>>>no no no just not a maq clone it sucks.
>>>i dont know what to say no more,i hate this hybride sequencers.
>>>i want a simple analog sequencer,i want a smart quantizer not just
>>>the cromatic scale,i liked a lot the doep... desighn both
>>>of the triger sequencer and the quantizer chack it out.
>>>if the non MOAS would cost 400-500$ then how much the MOAS
>>>would cost 2000$,its crazy.
>>>for a guy like me how dont use MIDI at all i need lots
>>>of sequencers so do i gone end up with 5000$ of sequencer's ?
>>>Gur Milstein
>>>At 06:27 PM 4/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>>>>Well, here is a thought for an intermediate version (non-MOAS).
>>>>1) Use Spectrol 248 conductive plastic pots (the black ones on the '110
>>>>kit). I get those for
>>>>about $2.75ea.
>>>>2) Use a 12-bit ADC to read them in, and a 12-bit DAC for the output.
>>>>3) Use a 8051 uP (I have full-tilt boogy tools for 8051 and as a warning
>>>>LOVE assembly).
>>>>4) Use a standard 2 line 16char LCD display or I have a surprise for an
>>>>equivalent. Both cost me about $20.
>>>>This would fit in a 3U wide, kit would be $400-500, and you get 1X16,
>>>>with EEPROM program storage,
>>>>sync to MIDI clock, etc etc etc. Glide, quantizer, SW upgrades off the
>>>>blah blah blah.
>>>>Paul S.
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