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web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-23 by drmabuce

Hi All,
     I cruise this list ever few days and since there's been no 
discussion lately, I decided to go research the member list.
    Wowee! I know a few of you personally and a few more of you by 
your postings on other lists - The traffic on this list is just not 
living up to the talent potential in it's member roster. So I'm gonna 
lob a grenade into this tupperware party and see it catalyzes some 
chemistry. If not I'll just go back in my hole and doink on my 
enevelator.
   (relax Mike, I solemnly pledge that my view is that any discussions 
of panel graphics or 'form factor' are beneath contempt)
   here goes:
   What do you folks think of the new culture of internet groups?
    There are plenty of ostensible benefits…..
     but how many of them are REAL for you.
    i.e:
    Do newbies get the information they want?…….need?
    Do oldies find kindred spirits?
    Does Grant (or any of the designers) get feedback that they 
wouldn't get from plain ol' private email
    Are WE getting any feedback here that we wouldn't get otherwise.

   Here's my $.02 to 'seed the batch'…
   I'm an old guy. I've been patching since 1972. I'm fascinated by 
the fact that it is now possible to communicate almost instantly with 
folks who have similar gadgets and interests. The concept is dazzling. 
In contrast, the reality of this fascination is composed of delight 
and rueful morbidity in nearly equal parts. For instance, my 
perception is that close contact among users has fostered the growth 
of 'tribes'; cults of personality formed around design concepts of the 
gadgets  from which the nature of the designers is extrapolated (with 
a predictably-high degree of  inaccuracy, I think)
    While anthropology/sociology 101 students will give this 
observation the big yawn (wellll… duh!) I'm nonetheless interested 
because in the 1970's I did not experience anything approaching the 
level of 'tribalism' in the user bases. Sure, there were Moog 
partisans and Arp fans (and about a dozen professors who had actually 
seen a Buchla) but I didn't see the level of fractiousness that you 
can read in an afternoon of browsing the analog lists today. People 
weren't rallying around Dr. Bob or Al Pearlman or Don Buchla and we 
definitely didn't see them addressing one another directly.
Mind you I'm not complaining, or  waxing nostalgic. I kinda think that 
THIS is the golden age of analog but I'm theorizing (with apologies to 
Dr. MacLuhan) that the media (i.e. the internet groups) ARE the 
message .
Whadda you folks think?

Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-23 by aurelialuz

snipped for your pretection:

>    (relax Mike, I solemnly pledge that my view is that any 
discussions 
> of panel graphics or 'form factor' are beneath contempt)

damn, i get negative points for my "there's a line missing on the 
front panel" thred...

>     Do newbies get the information they want?…….need?

as a newbie, i got so much information from sonicstate, it was unreal 
how fast i could ramp up on my gear knowledge.  the only problem was 
the gear opinions; the net makes it so everybody, regardless of their 
level of savy, can now post whatever, whenever.  i had to develop a 
built in filter pretty fast to sift the cream from the chaff.  but 
there's no arguing with hard numbers, so if you wanted to figure out 
specs on a machine, the net is a godsend.

but as someone who's been reading newsgroups since ~'93, i've seen it 
change so much.  newsgroups (or listservs for that matter) used to be 
an amazing community because people were so excited to actually have 
something to be able to use to communicate with people they shared 
interests with.  everybody seemed so nice, no matter what you were 
talking about.  no spam, no trolls, nowadays i think people take it 
for granted.

>     Does Grant (or any of the designers) get feedback that they 
> wouldn't get from plain ol' private email

i doubt it.  i've yet to give grant any feedback on my one and a half 
modules (or any soundclips; sorry grant) but i wouldn't hesitate to 
tell him how much i love the stuff over the telephone or in person.  
but i'm afraid i just don't have any feedback worth posting as i 
haven't been patchin' that long and never had any feature ideas of 
things i couldn't find someone implementing already.

plus, you know, i've been slapped down hard several times for posting 
dumb things or even not-so-dumb things.  these are things i maybe 
should have thought about more, or information that would have been 
easily found given a little effort on my part, but it's made me very 
wary about what i post.  idiocy posted to the web is eternal now, i'm 
sure as shit not going to try to negatively immortalize myself 
anymore than i already have.  95% of my posts or replys to people get 
composed and then deleted.  "oh, no one cares anyway and i'll 
probably just end up looking stupid."

>     Are WE getting any feedback here that we wouldn't get otherwise.

on this list, i don't think so.  i've kinda been wondering what i 
really have to say about modulars, wiard or any other, other than i 
think this particular module is very useful because of XXX.  so i'll 
post that on AH sometimes.  here, it's an even more limited range of 
gear to talk about, and if someone asks about my 1.5 modules, i'll 
say something, but other than that...

> For instance, my 
> perception is that close contact among users has fostered the 
growth 
> of 'tribes'; cults of personality formed around design concepts of 
the 
> gadgets  from which the nature of the designers is extrapolated 
(with 
> a predictably-high degree of  inaccuracy, I think)
>     While anthropology/sociology 101 students will give this 
> observation the big yawn (wellll… duh!) I'm nonetheless interested 
> because in the 1970's I did not experience anything approaching the 
> level of 'tribalism' in the user bases. Sure, there were Moog 
> partisans and Arp fans (and about a dozen professors who had 
actually 
> seen a Buchla) but I didn't see the level of fractiousness that you 
> can read in an afternoon of browsing the analog lists today. People 
> weren't rallying around Dr. Bob or Al Pearlman or Don Buchla and we 
> definitely didn't see them addressing one another directly.
> Mind you I'm not complaining, or  waxing nostalgic. I kinda think 
that 
> THIS is the golden age of analog but I'm theorizing (with apologies 
to 
> Dr. MacLuhan) that the media (i.e. the internet groups) ARE the 
> message .

i'd have to disagree here.  the ford-chevy rivalry is as old as the 
hills, as is the coke-pepsi rivalry, as is...etc. etc.  the thing 
about americans (and i know this is an international forum, but i can 
only speak for americans) is for some reason, they seem to equate the 
things they buy with who they are.  look at the early rap movement, 
it was all about kangols, gold chain, cars; it's the same in a lot of 
segments of our society.

i see the recent agression on these lists as inborn tribalism born 
out of this, for lack of a better term, identity crisis.  advertising 
targets a specific idividual for a specific product, and if that 
person buys that product, they likely feel that's who they are, the 
person they saw in the ad.  if you've come to believe that you're a 
moog man (or woman), and you believe a certain set of ideas about 
what a moog man (or woman) is, when an arp man (or woman) comes along 
and says, hey, arp men (or women) are better, you're going to feel 
insulted and get pissed.  and it's even a little understandable 
because it's sort of like saying "you are an unintelligent person for 
making that choice" or "who you are is less valid than who i am."  no 
one likes to feel unintelligent, especially a group of people who 
like to believe they're smarter than say, drummers.  ;)

synthesizers just escaped this for a long time because they were such 
a small segment of musicians.  i like to believe that in the 70's, 
that small segment was comprised of brainier people who were above 
this tribalism and saw the situation for what it really was, a great 
time to be making electronic music.  nowadays, the numbers are 
bigger, one person says a rash thing, another person identifies with 
it a little, it grows from there.  in reality, no one's worth has 
anything to do with what they own, but when you don't have much else 
going on in your life, arguing about your posessions isn't such a 
waste of time.

so, there's that, hope i didn't step on any toes, i wasn't meaning to 
put anyone down at all.  and i was a sociology major, so it obviously 
isn't that yawn inducing of an argument.  :)

alex

Re: [wiardgroup] web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-23 by Bill Sequeira

> Hi All,
>
> [...8<...]
>
> In contrast, the reality of this fascination is composed of delight
> and rueful morbidity in nearly equal parts. For instance, my
> perception is that close contact among users has fostered the growth
> of 'tribes'; cults of personality formed around design concepts of the
> gadgets  from which the nature of the designers is extrapolated (with
> a predictably-high degree of  inaccuracy, I think)
> While anthropology/sociology 101 students will give this
> observation the big yawn (wellll… duh!) I'm nonetheless interested
> because in the 1970's I did not experience anything approaching the
> level of 'tribalism' in the user bases. Sure, there were Moog
> partisans and Arp fans (and about a dozen professors who had actually
> seen a Buchla) but I didn't see the level of fractiousness that you
> can read in an afternoon of browsing the analog lists today. People
> weren't rallying around Dr. Bob or Al Pearlman or Don Buchla and we
> definitely didn't see them addressing one another directly.
> Mind you I'm not complaining, or  waxing nostalgic. I kinda think that
> THIS is the golden age of analog but I'm theorizing (with apologies to
> Dr. MacLuhan) that the media (i.e. the internet groups) ARE the
> message .
> Whadda you folks think?

I think there is a significant amount of mixing of an individual's
identity with what they have/bought/use/do.

It also seems that the goal of making music with these great machines
has taken a secondary role. Instead, machine's qualities and the
individual's knowledge of its history and creator have become
primary when seeking acceptance by an established tribe.  Back
when the first synths were introduced it was about what you could
create with them.

Choice is wonderful, and having access to philosophies embodied in a
variety of systems is very fertile ground for creative thinking.
But unfortunately it seems there is less discussion about real
philosophical differences in the systems for making music and more
about mm in the front panels.  Even less about the creative use of
these systems.  Engineering knowledge (and its meaning) has been
intermingled with music and manufacturing metaphors, the left
brain dominating over the right.

Lastly, in an age of disintermediation (there seems to be a machine
in between most anything we want to do), belonging to a group and
defending your colors is akin to fighting for your own kind.
Whatever gadget we use automatically makes us a part of something.
So we meet in virtuality where a virtual personality can be created and
destroyed in milliseconds.  And we can say whatever we want, since
freedom sans responsibility is easy to get this day and age.



Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock

Re: [wiardgroup] web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by liquidcolor@earthlink.net

It's a testament to the allure and mystique of the Wiard modular that 
there are more members in this group than the Serge group. I surmise 
that many of you subscribed to this list are non-owners, and are 
curious about the system and potential customers of Wiard. If that's 
so, hit us users with some questions.

Is the dual joystick controller "vintage" yet ? (not yet)

Does the Wogglebug really frighten children and small animals ? (yes !)

Does the Borg shred ? (oh yes !)

Experienced users might like to share their tips n' tricks, like 
Grant does occassionally. Wogglebug owners know this, but patching 
the 2 stepped cv outs of the bug to 2 Envelator gate ins gives very 
cool chattering rhythms as the voltage dips above and below the gate 
threshold.

Why the dearth of posts ? Isn't that just the nature of Yahoo ?

If anyone hasn't seen the low-res video of my first six modules in 
action that I posted early this year, let me know and I'll throw you 
the url.

Re: [wiardgroup] web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by peter

liquidcolor@earthlink.net 22:02 02.09.23

> Why the dearth of posts ? Isn't that just the nature of Yahoo ?

no, the yahoo tunings group at least used to be extremely active. i
finally post to this group, completely OT! but i don't yet own a wiard
module, looking forward to my first two (3U mini ones). then i will post
something.

kia ora,
peter

Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by skuehnl

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "drmabuce" <drmabuce@y...> wrote:

...

>    Here's my $.02 to 'seed the batch'…
>    I'm an old guy. I've been patching since 1972. I'm fascinated by 
> the fact that it is now possible to communicate almost instantly 
with 
> folks who have similar gadgets and interests. The concept is 
dazzling. 
> In contrast, the reality of this fascination is composed of delight 
> and rueful morbidity in nearly equal parts. For instance, my 
> perception is that close contact among users has fostered the 
growth 
> of 'tribes'; cults of personality formed around design concepts of 
the 
> gadgets  from which the nature of the designers is extrapolated 
(with 
> a predictably-high degree of  inaccuracy, I think)
>     While anthropology/sociology 101 students will give this 
> observation the big yawn (wellll… duh!) I'm nonetheless interested 
> because in the 1970's I did not experience anything approaching the 
> level of 'tribalism' in the user bases. Sure, there were Moog 
> partisans and Arp fans (and about a dozen professors who had 
actually 
> seen a Buchla) but I didn't see the level of fractiousness that you 
> can read in an afternoon of browsing the analog lists today. People 
> weren't rallying around Dr. Bob or Al Pearlman or Don Buchla and we 
> definitely didn't see them addressing one another directly.
> Mind you I'm not complaining, or  waxing nostalgic. I kinda think 
that 
> THIS is the golden age of analog but I'm theorizing (with apologies 
to 
> Dr. MacLuhan) that the media (i.e. the internet groups) ARE the 
> message .
> Whadda you folks think?


I think it has to do with the internet subliminally supporting 
consumer mentalities; you can go online and choose from modular synth 
manufacturers very easily while at the same time you don't really get 
to know the makers in person (just like you don't get to know the 
products before the purchase in a way you would with the newest 
Yamaha keys), so you make up an image in your mind that's easy and 
comfortable to stick to.

The more you get to know things only on a virtual level (mp3 
downloads, jpeg images, smooth & shiny webpage navigation written 
communication without even getting to know the handwriting of your 
prospective business partner), the more you will "fill up" the 
missing aspects to get the image in your head balanced. You create a 
virtual personality. The "little computer people" syndrome.

To exaggerate this a little, it's like reading a music magazine and 
deciding which of the interviewed groups you want to be a fan of. 
Does that make sense, doctor?

My thoughts are totally without any rating of this development, it 
has good and bad sides, it's the flow of things and who knows, in a 
few years time the situation might change again completely.

One possibility coming to my mind is that things could get back 
to "hands on" contact if maybe in the 2010 decade we will have 
quantum mechanics operating home computers assembling our custom 
circuits on our office desktops (sort of an enhancement of the 
current state of privately available EEPROM development, so to say - 
but who the heck gave me that idea? Someone from this list, I'm 
sure!), scenes and trends might develop locally, with local 
ditinctions & styles, as opposed to globally uniform trends 
like "E.C. vs W.C. style modulars", simply because retail and 
spreading of the materials & concepts won't require the internet 
anymore. Then there will be Frankfurt synths and Tokio synths and 
Mexico synths like there is Detroit techno and Stuttgart Hip Hop and 
London Dub and whatnot.

This concept I'm describing just assumes that synthesis hardware will 
become a cultural standard (and that's what it looks like at the 
moment), as opposed to fading back to the underground like it did 
twenty years ago. With software synthesis it has already happened - 
look at the "Native Instruments" parties, laptop-only concerts and 
public filesharing databases for patches & instruments -, so it is 
possible, given only that someone's (whose?!!) fascinating idea of 
electronics assembly becoming a consumer article will be reality.

Thoughts & feelings?

Anyone interested in collaborating upon development of real time 
operated (DSP, non-sampling based, TTS and pattern recognition based) 
speech synthesis system based on Lucent Technologies, by the way?

SK

Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by skuehnl

--- In wiardgroup@y..., Bill Sequeira <bill@a...> wrote:

> I think there is a significant amount of mixing of an individual's
> identity with what they have/bought/use/do.

Very well put, I agree, this is what I wrote about.

Regarding your other points Bill your observations certainly are 
correct, but it's not necessary to become pessimistic, just expect a 
little less from the others. The most important question is if what 
you do is fine for yourself.

Next step would be if you are pleased with what others do. If yes 
fine. If not, pick those you like and assume that those you not like 
are still having fun with the things they bought. And if even that is 
not the case, well it's their problem not yours or mine

However yes it may be the problem of the manufacturer if he feels a 
sale and all the precious previous work was wasted. Fortunately in 
this respect the days of Buchla (at least in the rather unsupportive 
and elitarian ways that have been purported unto my younger 
generation) are over, but generally I am positively supportive of 
customers supporting the providers of their patchcord happiness with 
honest opinions and user feedback and emotional support.

Which closes the circle to your first paragraph Bill, because: where 
do you draw the line between honestly enthusiatic and grateful 
supporters of brand X and those that go with it for their own 
identification and image?

I don't care to discriminate and judge. If anyone can, it's the 
manufacturers themselves. And if my observations are correct, then 
most of the time they don't care to, either.

SK

Re: [wiardgroup] Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by Bill Sequeira

> From: "skuehnl" <skuehnl@yahoo.de>
> Reply-To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:11:27 -0000
> To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wiardgroup] Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of
> grafitti?
> 
> --- In wiardgroup@y..., Bill Sequeira <bill@a...> wrote:
> 
>> I think there is a significant amount of mixing of an individual's
>> identity with what they have/bought/use/do.
> 
> Very well put, I agree, this is what I wrote about.
> 
> Regarding your other points Bill your observations certainly are
> correct, but it's not necessary to become pessimistic, just expect a
> little less from the others. The most important question is if what
> you do is fine for yourself.

Entirely agree, as it is always the pursue of one's purpose that
validates a choice.  Didn't mean to sound so pessimistic though.  :-)
 
> Next step would be if you are pleased with what others do. If yes
> fine. If not, pick those you like and assume that those you not like
> are still having fun with the things they bought. And if even that is
> not the case, well it's their problem not yours or mine

Agree as well.  However the issue is born when there is translation
of feelings/reasons/purpose onto others.  I.e., the typical human
behavior introduced by fundamentalism, where a fundamentalist believes
that others should behave and think in the same way as s/he does, and
if not they need to change or be changed.

> However yes it may be the problem of the manufacturer if he feels a
> sale and all the precious previous work was wasted. Fortunately in
> this respect the days of Buchla (at least in the rather unsupportive
> and elitarian ways that have been purported unto my younger
> generation) are over, but generally I am positively supportive of
> customers supporting the providers of their patchcord happiness with
> honest opinions and user feedback and emotional support.
> 
> Which closes the circle to your first paragraph Bill, because: where
> do you draw the line between honestly enthusiatic and grateful
> supporters of brand X and those that go with it for their own
> identification and image?

Good question.  Not being a psychologist/sociologist limits my response,
but here are my humble $0.02: it is when I try to tell someone that they
are wrong because they feel different than I do, and then try to impose
my way of thinking onto them.  A good critical exchange should leave both
(or multiple) parties with valuable information of the points of view
exchanged, and should enable them to choose in the future based on
info they did not have before.  This enriches everyone.

Of course there is respect involved, no need to personalize the discussion.

It is when it gets personal, for or against a manufacturer or someone
who posts, that a healthy debate turns into an ego clash.  That is where
I, at least, draw the line, as my interest is to discuss an item rather
than a person.

Not sure it completely answers your question, but it's a try.  :-)

> I don't care to discriminate and judge. If anyone can, it's the
> manufacturers themselves. And if my observations are correct, then
> most of the time they don't care to, either.

Also agree with no judgment.  I honestly have deep admiration for folks
who have an idea and decide to turn it into reality.  There are always
a myriad of suggestions, but ultimately it is up to the manufacturer
to decide what goes in and out of a product.  Then it is for us users
to vote with our wallets and put it to good use.

I guess part of the message I wanted to convey was that the focus of
these systems is to produce music, but folks have more than that in
mind when they discuss them.


Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock

Re: [wiardgroup] Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-24 by Paul Schreiber

My 2 cents:

You need to have a really good notch filter AND a
thick skin to get useful info or participate in
Internet discussions, epecially if you are a
manufacturer. There are still many people that vendors
should be booted off all discussions as a matter of
course. Random musings follow...

a) When trying to get "honest opinions", it can be a
whipping. Case in point: www.carpoint.com that has 10s
of thousands of car opinions. If you are in market for
a car, and start reading, you quickly realize all
posts are either-

1) "This is the best car I've ever owned!"
2) "This is the most awful car I've ever owned!"

and the split is about 65% good to 35% bad for EVERY
CAR. So overall the site is pointless. YOu cannot
derive a judgement based on what is posted. All you
can hope for is some overall "feeling". But it's NO
DIFFERENT that movie opinions or record reviews.

This is true for EVERYTHING: cars, digital cameras,
DVD player, synths, etc. What an interest group IS
good for is to answers to a specific question that is
NOT BASED on opinion (such as, 'How many waveforms
does the LFO have?')

Note, in the music groups, there are different
'rules'. The first thing to remember is that many
musicians are not 'analytical critical' as say a group
of EEs discussing microwave transmitters. There is a
definite overall understanding that just about any
piece of gear is musically useful. And, since there is
no formal definition of exactly what constitutes a
'musician', it's difficult if not impossible to
discuss much of anything without ruffling a few
feathers.

b) Internet groups have replaced recreational reading
(so long, Steven King). In a way, it's like the
overhyped "interactive TV" that we were all supposed
to have now (along with flying cars). And just like
TV, you have to have a little comedy, a little pathos
and some drama to keep it interesting. So people feel
that it is their duty to inject such emotions in all
discussions (the 'fights' on the synth discussions are
a cake walk compared to the ones on my wife's
needlepoint group and any religious-based group).

c) Every group has it's traffic cop and it's
over-corrector. They are useful roles but most
over-correctors don't know when to apply moderation
("Tsk Tsk! I'm pretty sure you *meant* to say the
Ferrari 365GT has a 0.021 plug gap, not 0.42 as you
said. <moron!!>)

d) Then there are the trolls. I feel blesssed as I
seem to have my own personal trolls. However, I have
now decided to pretty much ignore trolls (well, unless
it's late at night and I'm REALLY bored).

e) Are good synth suggestions gleamed from public
forums? Yes, but it's like mining diamonds (10 tons of
earth moved per carat). 

Paul S.


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Re: web groups: salons or erudition or walls of grafitti?

2002-09-26 by its_peake

--- In wiardgroup@y..., Paul Schreiber <syntht@y...> wrote:
> My 2 cents:

<snip>

> d) Then there are the trolls. I feel blesssed as I
> seem to have my own personal trolls. However, I have
> now decided to pretty much ignore trolls (well, unless
> it's late at night and I'm REALLY bored).

You know what? I didn't even know this was from you
until I read that, and checked the name of the poster.

I was with you up until that point. I'm not interested
in getting into it here (or anywhwere else, even though
you infer that), but you may have missed some of the
points that were made in the last few posts as being
indicative as to why you have met such resistance in
the forums, and why that as your internet persona
changes in response, our responses also change. It's
that simple. Things are going well now, and everyone
has equal opportunity to present their own point of
view and musical experience. That is how it should be.

Thank you for your efforts in supporting a positive set
of environs to discuss analog synthesis, with each 
persons' input being as valuable as the others, and the
benefits of all manufacturers' gear being discussed and
examined equally. 

Easier,

-Mike Peake

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