-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Pring <markpringnz@yahoo.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Aug 22, 2009 6:53 am
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
I have ?what was a good vinyl copy from 1969 but at present I don't have a decent deck to play it on, so it stays unplayed. I bought the 1989 CD and felt that I had been ripped off, how hard can it be to transfer ?sound to a CD? I ?have had similar and even worse experiences with other CD reissues, don't get me started on the Colosseum reissues which seem to have been through the ?Ministry of Truth! I will save up for ?a decent deck, I have hundreds of good quality LPs not played for ?30 years, I don't think that they go off? I am not being fooled again.?
Mark
--- On Sat, 8/22/09, kinchmusic@aol.com <kinchmusic@aol.com> wrote:
From: kinchmusic@aol.com <kinchmusic@aol.com>
Subject: Re:
[newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 7:46 PM
?
So, do I take it that everyone here wouldn't even curious as to how it sounds in 5.1?
I dare say certain versions of the record sound fab on vinyl, however, I would think most wouldn't have a copy let alone a turntable to play it on.
To me, the holy grail would be a cd with a sound to at least equal that of the vinyl and hopefully exeed it.
With exception of the The Beatles Love album, which is a different kettle of fish altogether, I have been very disappointed with various attempts at re-mixing classic albums (with the possible exeptions of some of the Elton John efforts. GYBR is wonderful!)
I'm not interested if the takes used are not the originals, therefore, by implication, inferior.
The only reason I would urge a wait and see aproach, is that most of us know the consequences of the bouncing tracks?process whilst mixing, and I think that if, just if, they do get it right, there is a chance that it might just work. And for those who are fortunate enough to have good vinyl, and a decent turntable to play it on, well you are indeed fortunate.
This, coupled with the prospect of experiencing the album in 5.1?makes it well?worth just over a tenner of my hard earned any day of the week, especially when I think of how much money I've wasted recently on crap, in the hope of finding some new music that I actually want to listen to on a regular basis.
Don't get me started on Lizard!
TBC probably.
Andy K
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@ gmail.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 7:25
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
?
Trouble is, Fripp justifies his endless cycles of re-releases- for-the-gullible by saying that he is not holding a gun to anyone's head and making them go out and buy the new versions. Of course he is right in a literal sense, but he also has said that King Crimson was always a work in progress and if something happens now to make something made in (say) 1969 'sound better' then it will happen, I wonder if he thought the same thing in 1969?
Oddly, Fritz came up with exactly the same example I had in mind re 'Pet Sounds'. The stereo remaster/remix is actually not bad to listen to, but it isn't the album I grew up with and know inside and out, backside and forwards. I'm sure that the demand for a stereo version didn't come from Brian Wilson (as if - he hasn't heard in stereo since he was about eight) but the way they went about that one was completely at odds with any attempt to preserve the musicality of the original. In that instance there were plenty of cases where the original eight tracks didn't survive and so other takes were used that were inferior. (Try listening to 'Sloop John B'; they use a guitar take where the sessionist makes a train wreck of the first accompaniment then trips up over the next few bars. There is even a place where, to get a stereo effect on the vocals they combine takes where they are singing different words)
And please let's not even think about what happened to the re-release of 'We're Only In It For The Money/Lumpy Gravy'. Fans of Alvin and the Chipmunks would be delighted.
I know that Fripp won't suffer from the same issues as the PS debacle as he has all the takes (we assume), but this form of musical revisionism does bother me, particularly when it is combined with what can only be his he-doth-protest- too-much wish to shore up his bank balance. If it's going to sound as good as the vinyl then why are we buying it again? If it sounds different then great, but it's not the same thing. I admit I was pleasantly surprised by the 30th Anniversary version but that is because I had lived with previous botched attempts for so long. I also realise that the vinyl means and medium just aren't around any more, so a decent CD is what is needed. We have one. Do we need another? The previous CD abominations had his name on them along with Arnold's, so one assumes he sanctioned that release without problem. Is Fripp one of those rare creatures whose hearing is improving with age? Or is he putting his name to
something again without his own involvement?
Unfortunately for The Frippster he keeps a rather obsessive diary online and I don't see much about him sweating over a mixing desk for days and days at a time. There are, however, numerous instances over the years of him turning up for a day and 'approving' what he hears. Not the same thing. Not the same thing at all.
When I was running Elephant Talk I had an amusing e-mail from a guy in Japan - no great surprise there - who was obsessively trying to compile every single issue and reissue of the first KC album that there has ever been. Yashoko was 42 and had been doing this since he was 34. He had filled one notebook and was planning on filling another. He was thereafter going to turn it into a Pete Frame-like web site to catalogue his obsession and give more information on one album than the world probably ever needs. To date, there is no web site. Either Yashoko has chucked the towel in or he is still working on it. Either way, it implies a mess of a situation. His findings did however reveal a myriad vinyl re-releases, not all of which were exactly up to the mark either. Anyone remember what Polydor did in the 1980s? I think they were one of the few record companies who made records whose vinyl you could perhaps use as a substitute for tracing paper.
Incidentally Tom, what makes the Tron on ItCotCK sound so great is that they recorded it on microphones through a pile of guitar amps and speakers playing at shattering volume. I'm not sure anyone has attempted that trick since.
Mike
Mark Pring wrote:
?
I agree, ?with any work of art, once it's finished it's finished. ITCOTCK was finished in 1969 it's best left alone. Often the limitations of the recording processes of the work become part of the work itself.
--- On Sat, 8/22/09, djacques@csulb. edu <djacques@csulb. edu> wrote:
From: djacques@csulb. edu <djacques@csulb. edu>
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
To: newmellotrongroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 5:00 AM
?
I believe that they have pulled as much sonic excellence out of ITCOTCK as possible. It is what it is. Other than generate more revenue, why on earth try to remix it?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
From: kinchmusic@aol. com
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 03:43:34 -0400
To: <newmellotrongroup@ yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
?
The thing that "should" make this release stand out from the pack as far as this listener is concerned is the availability and use of the original session tapes. This will be the first time ever that the mix will comprise of more than yer standard 8 tracks.
My understanding is that they will be using "pre-bounced" takes on everything they have, Once inside the computer all the original elements can then be run in sync for the first time, this will?allow?for real time control over all aspects of the new mix.
As I said in my previous post, my fear is they will then go and ruin it all by compressing the hell out of it to make it appear louder, as in the case of the recent Genesis re-mixes.
Andy K
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas C. Doncourt <tomdcour@amnh. org>
To: newmellotrongroup@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 3:31
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
?
I'm not so sure of Steve Wilson being a "co-producer" of the remix of "In
The Court.." (not a big Porcupine tree fan) but I'm more than happy to
help support Fripp's adventures. He's welcome to come and stay in the
guest room any time.I do agree that so far the vinyl sounds best though.
> The vinyl version is wonderful, I have the 1989 remastered CD which sounds
> awful, I assume they did a much better job on the 30th anniversary edition
> but having paid twice, I am not paying again even if they would come and
> do it live in my living room!
>
> --- On Fri, 8/21/09, Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@ gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@ gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] King Crimson.. A treat!
> To: newmellotrongroup@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 10:14 AM
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> Yes. I'm 'sure' as well.
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> The 1969 Island vinyl sounds great still. The 30th anniversary CD is
> slightly better.
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> That'll do
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> kinchmusic@aol. com wrote:
> ?
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> Released towards the end of the year. Is what I'm sure will be
> the definitive release of In the Court of the Crimson King.
> http://www.burnings hed.com/store/ kingcrimson/ multiproduct/ 313/1379/
> country/221/
> ?
> Includes a new 5.1 mix taken from the original session tapes!? I
> think this set will be awesome, as going back to those original session
> tapes mean that the mix will effectively be sourced from more than the
> original 8 tracks would have allowed, with far fewer track bounces, and
> therefore less tape hiss and distortion.
> I just hope they don't compress the S**t out?of the final mix?as
> seems to be the norm nowadays, sadly.
> Loads of extra goodies too!
> Very excited.
> Andy K.
> "Red" and "Lizard" 5.1 also on the way.
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> --
> Mike Dickson, Edinburgh
>
> Free Music Project: http://www.mikedick son.org.uk/
> Or http://www.last. fm/music/ Mike+Dickson
> Or http://soundcloud. com/mikedickson
> Or http://www.planetme llotron.com/ revd4.htm# mikedickson
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