Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-19 by ceccles_ca

Don't waste any time or money buying "new and improved" super audio
reissues of your old CD's.

Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original
16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound
quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies.

In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering
Society (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who
aren't professional engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran,
present a breakthrough paper that contradicts all previous inputs by
the engineering community. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with
literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels,
conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel
analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible
change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That
means there's no audible difference between the original CD standard
("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-19 by tronbros@aol.com

That's interesting. I have just received a copy of the remastered Tomita 'Snowflakes are Dancing' and it sounds extraordinary. But is it because I've been told it will? Sometimes John and myself get over-sensitised to a particular recording, be it pitch, timbre or some other effect. You have to walk away and return again another day and the problem has gone. I like MiniDisc. It sounds amazing to me, especially at mitigating overly fussy CD sound where it seems to balance out the inherent problems I hear. I suspect it is psycho acoustic effect but I don't care - it works! I mistrust mp3 and have several decidedly dodgy recordings in this format. This may also be psycho acoustic but I suspect it actually is a crap format.

Best,

Martin

Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic

www.mellotronics.com
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-19 by Bruce Daily

Hi all-

I have several SACD discs(classical, rock, jazz,
folk-bluegrass), many with both CD and SACD layers. I
assume both layers have the same stereo (not
multichannel) source master. The SACD layer always
sounds clearer to my ears. DVD-A is harder to
compare, as it doesn't contain both layers. Ya' gotta
flip over a dual-disc to hear the difference, and the
comparison time is lost.

However, consider that a well-mastered CD, when
played on a top-rated audiophile player, can give a
very persuasive presentation. In this case, the noise
floor and the treble range are usually the only
sticking points to format differences. As noise and
treble perception usually go hand-in-hand, it follows
that the reviewer making the comparison needs to have
good hearing, with little high-end loss.

One would also hope that the mastering pipeline
from the source to each foremat is as direct & clean
as possible, with no "tweaking" just for the format.
Differences would really screw up the comparison
process.

I like my Rolling Stones SACDs, which have both
layers. But, the producers of these discs spent extra
time rummaging through massive tape libraries to find
the best masters, then re-assembled the album masters
(how'd they get so seperated?). A case of trying to
inprove commercial sound, and at the same time find
the best source and archive it (rather than re-create
or over-equalize it). The SACD layer is always
clearer to me.

-Bruce D.

--- tronbros@aol.com wrote:

> That's interesting. I have just received a copy of
> the remastered Tomita
> 'Snowflakes are Dancing' and it sounds
> extraordinary. But is it because I've
> been told it will? Sometimes John and myself get
> over-sensitised to a
> particular recording, be it pitch, timbre or some
> other effect. You have to walk
> away and return again another day and the problem
> has gone. I like MiniDisc.
> It sounds amazing to me, especially at mitigating
> overly fussy CD sound where
> it seems to balance out the inherent problems I
> hear. I suspect it is
> psycho acoustic effect but I don't care - it works!
> I mistrust mp3 and have
> several decidedly dodgy recordings in this format.
> This may also be psycho
> acoustic but I suspect it actually is a crap
> format.
>
> Best,
>
> Martin
>
> Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic
>
> _www.mellotronics.com_
> (http://www.mellotronics.com/)
>
> US Sales East: Jimmy Moore_ JMoore6397@aol.com_
> (http://JMoore6397@aol.com/)
> US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink._
> (http://pjc56@earthlink.net/)
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-19 by ceccles_ca

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, tronbros@... wrote:

>
> That's interesting. I have just received a copy of the remastered

Tomita 'Snowflakes are Dancing' and it sounds extraordinary.

Remastering techniques can no doubt improve the perceived quality of a
recording, when it's done right. I have the Rhino - A Trick of the
Tail CD and I think they fucked it up with to much EQ and Exciter
tinkering. I hear cymbals that I never knew were there. That's nice,
but the whole CD is just too damn bright compared with the LP.

> I like MiniDisc. It sounds amazing to me, especially at mitigating

overly fussy CD sound where it seems to balance out the inherent
problems I hear. I suspect it is psycho acoustic effect but I don't
care - it works!

Yes, unfortunately even with the new HiMD format, MiniDisk is dead.
There are a load of portable 24 bit flash memory recorders (SDHC or
Memory Stick) on the market now. Full CD quality without compression.
See Sony PCM D50 :
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/10/sony-pcm-d50-recorder-review.html

Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-20 by Mark Pring

Bring back vinyl! My favourite recordings were mostly
classical records recorded by EMI in the 60's haven't
heard anything to compare since and all the advances
in recording technology seem to be steps backwards to
me.

Mark

PS Imagine if the tron had consisted of 35 record
players in parallel, a nightmare.

--- tronbros@aol.com wrote:

> That's interesting. I have just received a copy of
> the remastered Tomita
> 'Snowflakes are Dancing' and it sounds
> extraordinary. But is it because I've
> been told it will? Sometimes John and myself get
> over-sensitised to a
> particular recording, be it pitch, timbre or some
> other effect. You have to walk
> away and return again another day and the problem
> has gone. I like MiniDisc.
> It sounds amazing to me, especially at mitigating
> overly fussy CD sound where
> it seems to balance out the inherent problems I
> hear. I suspect it is
> psycho acoustic effect but I don't care - it works!
> I mistrust mp3 and have
> several decidedly dodgy recordings in this format.
> This may also be psycho
> acoustic but I suspect it actually is a crap
> format.
>
> Best,
>
> Martin
>
> Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic
>
> _www.mellotronics.com_
> (http://www.mellotronics.com/)
>
> US Sales East: Jimmy Moore_ JMoore6397@aol.com_
> (http://JMoore6397@aol.com/)
> US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink._
> (http://pjc56@earthlink.net/)
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-20 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 3/19/2008 9:24:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, markpringnz@yahoo.com writes:

Mark

PS Imagine if the tron had consisted of 35 record
players in parallel, a nightmare.

Even worse, imagine if it was 35 8-track tapes... um... ah... whatever.

Frank

Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-20 by fdoddy@aol.com

In your case Martin, it is exclusively Psycho.

I've heard guys do amazing things with 16/48 that blows away 24/96 or 24/192 and I've heard gobs and gobs of analog that is just music swimming in mud. Go figure...I'll switch to 24 bit before I go to a higher sampling rate.

Mp3 really is awful though, even the higher bit rates

My flux capacitor needs a new Keeney valve.

fritz

-----Original Message-----
From: tronbros@aol.com
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

That's interesting. I have just received a copy of the remastered Tomita 'Snowflakes are Dancing' and it sounds extraordinary. But is it because I've been told it will? Sometimes John and myself get over-sensitised to a particular recording, be it pitch, timbre or some other effect. You have to walk away and return again another day and the problem has gone. I like MiniDisc. It sounds amazing to me, especially at mitigating overly fussy CD sound where it seems to balance out the inherent problems I hear. I suspect it is psycho acoustic effect but I don't care - it works! I mistrust mp3 and have several decidedly dodgy recordings in this format. This may also be psycho acoustic but I suspect it actually is a crap format.

Best,

Martin

Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic

www.mellotronics.com
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink.

Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-20 by MAinPsych@aol.com

In a message dated 3/20/2008 9:33:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, fdoddy@aol.com writes:

My flux capacitor needs a new Keeney valve.

http://www.upt.com/NPRepairValves.html

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=28

Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

RE: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-21 by Mark Pring

--- Pomeroy Ranch <punchbowl4@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I got the Vaughn Williams symphonies - EMI stereo
> late Boult - and they are
> wonderful. These help replace my extremely
> over-played vinyl of Sinfonia
> Antarctica.
>
>
>
> Speaking of vinyl - some of my 'tron-related records
> will likely never see
> digitization (Ethos Ardour for one.)
>

I think the earlier Decca mono ones were better in
interpretation but not sound quality. EMI were at
their peak around then, I have a copy of Barbirolli
conducting Mahler's 6th which has wonderful, alas I
longer like Mahler much.

Interesting that so many of the members of the list
like classical and romantic music, my interest in
classical music developped in parallel with that in
progressive rock, I wonder if people who like
progressive rock music are more likely to like
classical music?

Mark

>
>
> Bring back vinyl! My favourite recordings were
> mostly
> classical records recorded by EMI in the 60's
> haven't
> heard anything to compare since and all the advances
> in recording technology seem to be steps backwards
> to
> me.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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RE: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-21 by Pomeroy Ranch

I got the Vaughn Williams symphonies – EMI stereo late Boult – and they are wonderful. These help replace my extremely over-played vinyl of Sinfonia Antarctica.

Speaking of vinyl – some of my ‘tron-related records will likely never see digitization (Ethos Ardour for one…)

Bring back vinyl! My favourite recordings were mostly
classical records recorded by EMI in the 60's haven't
heard anything to compare since and all the advances
in recording technology seem to be steps backwards to
me.

Mark

RE: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-21 by Pomeroy Ranch

Yes – I remember hearing the earlier mono recording (with the spoken passages in the front of each movement for Sinfonia Antarctica) – lush performance, but sonically unfortunate – especially interesting tho’ because RVW was there during the recordings.

I agree about the parallel between interest in classical and prog – I especially think the more pastoral sounding stuff like MB, BJH, Renaissance, Strawbs, etc.

Vance

I think the earlier Decca mono ones were better in
interpretation but not sound quality. EMI were at
their peak around then, I have a copy of Barbirolli
conducting Mahler's 6th which has wonderful, alas I
longer like Mahler much.

Interesting that so many of the members of the list
like classical and romantic music, my interest in
classical music developped in parallel with that in
progressive rock, I wonder if people who like
progressive rock music are more likely to like
classical music?

Mark

>
>
> Bring back vinyl! My favourite recordings were
> mostly
> classical records recorded by EMI in the 60's
> haven't
> heard anything to compare since and all the advances
> in recording technology seem to be steps backwards
> to
> me.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-21 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 3/20/2008 11:25:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, punchbowl4@earthlink.net writes:

I agree about the parallel between interest in classical and prog – I especially think the more pastoral sounding stuff like MB, BJH, Renaissance, Strawbs, etc.

Vance

Then you'll want to acquire a copy of Pete Sinfield's solo album, "Still" that has "Song of the Seagoat" on it. A perfect melding of classical/prog/shit. But very pastoral.

Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-31 by Andy Thompson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Pring" <markpringnz@yahoo.com>
To: <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 1:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

> --- Pomeroy Ranch <punchbowl4@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of vinyl - some of my 'tron-related records
>> will likely never see
>> digitization (Ethos Ardour for one.)

The first Ethos album appeared briefly on an unknown label - someone did me
a copy of it, and it sounds like it's from the masters. I believe their
second is around, too, although it may be from vinyl.

Andy T.

Re: SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-31 by ceccles_ca

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, fdoddy@... wrote:

> Mp3 really is awful though, even the higher bit rates

> fritz

My son has been telling me that 192 kbps MP3's give him full CD
quality sound. We did some comparisons on the weekend. He was
surprised when he clearly heard the difference every time. We also
compared a 15 ips tape of a CD with MP3. He had to agree that my
"antique" tape recorder delivers much higher quality audio than MP3.

I wouldn't say MP3 is awful. 8 tracks and Walkman cassettes were
awful. MP3's provide very good audio quality by comparison. Good
but not HIFI.

Re: SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-31 by tomdcour

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "ceccles_ca" <ecclesreinson@...> wrote:

>Yes, I've been noticing the difference when making MP3 files from AIFF. I've been sending

music over the internet and having to really squash the files and as an experiment I did
the compression in increments, checking the audio quality each time. I first noticed the
cymbals breaking down with other high frequencies following.

> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, fdoddy@ wrote:
>
> > Mp3 really is awful though, even the higher bit rates
>
> > fritz
>
> My son has been telling me that 192 kbps MP3's give him full CD
> quality sound. We did some comparisons on the weekend. He was
> surprised when he clearly heard the difference every time. We also
> compared a 15 ips tape of a CD with MP3. He had to agree that my
> "antique" tape recorder delivers much higher quality audio than MP3.
>
> I wouldn't say MP3 is awful. 8 tracks and Walkman cassettes were
> awful. MP3's provide very good audio quality by comparison. Good
> but not HIFI.
>

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-31 by Bruce Daily

A real sore point with me. It is amazing to me
that we have advanced to the amazing picture quality
of HDTV, yet we've regressed with sound. The general
public accepts such low quality standards for music
listening. Lossy internet downloads don't help. The
public doesn't know what is possible with sound. Then
again, the public accepts this quality, as long as it
is cheap and doesn't take very long to download.

Quantity, not quality, is the norm. Fill up hard
drives with thousands of music files compressed to the
max, then sell off the CDs. Minimalize.

On a related note, our local pawn shop people have
often seen customers rush back in their stores,
scared, to buy back their CDs & records. Of course,
their computers crashed, and they created no backup
music files.

I'm done. I feel better now.

-Bruce D.
#1221

--- tomdcour <tomdcour@amnh.org> wrote:

> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com,
> "ceccles_ca" <ecclesreinson@...> wrote:
> >Yes, I've been noticing the difference when making
> MP3 files from AIFF. I've been sending
> music over the internet and having to really squash
> the files and as an experiment I did
> the compression in increments, checking the audio
> quality each time. I first noticed the
> cymbals breaking down with other high frequencies
> following.
> > --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, fdoddy@
> wrote:
> >
> > > Mp3 really is awful though, even the higher bit
> rates
> >
> > > fritz
> >
> > My son has been telling me that 192 kbps MP3's
> give him full CD
> > quality sound. We did some comparisons on the
> weekend. He was
> > surprised when he clearly heard the difference
> every time. We also
> > compared a 15 ips tape of a CD with MP3. He had
> to agree that my
> > "antique" tape recorder delivers much higher
> quality audio than MP3.
> >
> > I wouldn't say MP3 is awful. 8 tracks and Walkman
> cassettes were
> > awful. MP3's provide very good audio quality by
> comparison. Good
> > but not HIFI.
> >
>
>
>

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RE: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [newmellotrongroup] SACD or DVD-A

2008-03-31 by Pomeroy Ranch

Andy –

Where and how can I get a copy of that?

Vance

> --- Pomeroy Ranch <punchbowl4@earthlin k.net> wrote:

>
>> Speaking of vinyl - some of my 'tron-related records
>> will likely never see
>> digitization (Ethos Ardour for one.)

The first Ethos album appeared briefly on an unknown label - someone did me
a copy of it, and it sounds like it's from the masters. I believe their
second is around, too, although it may be from vinyl.

Andy