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Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-10 by David Davis


Subject: Re: M4000D vs. Memotron

Martin, the M4000D is not just "a mellotron", it's a wooden MIDI master keyboard with a mellotron action and polyphonic aftertouch. 

You can plug a MIDI cable into its MIDI Out socket and use it to play any MIDI-compatible hardware or software device since 1983! With that lovely "marshmallow" keyboard action :) It's incredibly expressive and powerful in the right hands. 

Loads of VSTi softsynths these days support PolyAT, but MIDI master keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch capability are exceedingly rare.  
(I did own a Kurzweil MIDIboard for a while, which had it, but it's stiff piano action wasn't really that well suited to PolyAT anyways.) 


Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-10 by tron400@yahoo.com

If a Mellotron has "marshmallow" keyboard action, there's something wrong with it. This is what a properly adjusted Mellotron should play like. No aftertouch and no spongy keyboard.

Bernie

Recording The Streetly M4000 Mellotron

 

Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-10 by tron400@yahoo.com

Also, since the M4000D doesn't have tapes, it's not truly a Mellotron. It's just a dedicated computerized sample player. Even a PC with M-Tron Pro can do more than just play samples.

Bernie

Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-11 by David Davis



Subject: Subject: Re: M4000D vs. Memotron
Bernie,
you're just parroting your standard answers and not engaging with what I'm saying.

It doesn't matter that on a real tape-based mellotron that's working properly, there's not a 'marshmallow' action that gives the effect of aftertouch.   I'm talking about being able to use the M4000D keyboard as a very nice PolyAT MIDI controller for OTHER things that AREN'T mellotrons.

I know you're sitting there going "What? Things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!  I don't understand! It doesn't compute! How could a musician be interested in things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!??! Are these musicians insane?!" but nevertheless, some people out there actually are, and their musical horizons are slightly broader that asking "Do I sound exactly like a King Crimson LP from 1969? DO I???  No?? Then I am WRONG :(  "


Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-11 by Andy Kinch

Actually, I find the midi implementation on the 4000d total rubbish. As a master keyboard, it has nothing to offer. Yes, you can control it from a PC or another keyboard, in which case don't buy one, buy M-tron Pro. (Which based purely on sound alone is the most accurate of all of them IMO). In fact, one of the joys of the 4000d is its keyboard. It is a delight. You could be forgiven in thinking you were playing a perfectly adjusted analogue machine. It's beautifully built. The samples are full res, though many think the creases have been ironed out too much sonically. But to have so many classic sounds 'on tap' so to speak is great whether recording or playing live. And it kind of forces you to play it live, which can only be a good thing. 
Ideally we would all be able to have a tape based M4000 sitting in our studio, it would always be the number one choice. Failing that, if we're not super lucky to have a 400/300 or Mk2, we are working with a compromise. How much of a compromise we are willing to make will depend on our requirements and our budget. Can't comment on the latest Memotron instruments as I haven't heard them. I had an original at one time, but found it didn't really cut through the mix enough for me.
There are many who will probably disagree with me, but there you go, that's life!
bEst to all.

Andy K

Sent from my iPad

On 11 Nov 2015, at 12:23, David Davis feline1@feline1.co.uk [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 



Subject: Subject: Re: M4000D vs. Memotron
Bernie,
you're just parroting your standard answers and not engaging with what I'm saying.

It doesn't matter that on a real tape-based mellotron that's working properly, there's not a 'marshmallow' action that gives the effect of aftertouch.   I'm talking about being able to use the M4000D keyboard as a very nice PolyAT MIDI controller for OTHER things that AREN'T mellotrons.

I know you're sitting there going "What? Things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!  I don't understand! It doesn't compute! How could a musician be interested in things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!??! Are these musicians insane?!" but nevertheless, some people out there actually are, and their musical horizons are slightly broader that asking "Do I sound exactly like a King Crimson LP from 1969? DO I???  No?? Then I am WRONG :(  "


Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-11 by loserslounge2000@yahoo.com

Thanks for your responses. I understand that M-Tron Pro and a controller may very well be the best option for recreating Mellotron sounds, but I'm looking for the convenience of an instrument that's solely dedicated to Mellotron sounds, and everything is self-contained. I guess I'm leaning towards the M4000D. Poly aftertouch may not exist in a real Mellotron, but having a nice keyboard makes a difference to me. Any Memotron owners want to chime in?

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-11 by gino wong

What you describe is a ROMpler or a sampler with a weighted or adjustable action controller, something that has been available for over 20 years. If you want all in one there are Ensoniqs, Kurzweils and piles of other stuff at every price point new and used..  It seems to me that you have an eye on one of those latter paradigm digital recreations branded 'Mellotron' . It's ok, you don't need to seek our approval or disapproval, in actuality because of the deep technical experience on this list, you are not going to get a clean yes on function, value or practicalty.  

In certain circles at certain times, music and it's acoutrements are fashion. Though distateful to me, there is nothing outside of personal asthetics wrong with it unless I am paying the bills.

So do what you want,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:34 AM, loserslounge2000@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Thanks for your responses. I understand that M-Tron Pro and a controller may very well be the best option for recreating Mellotron sounds, but I'm looking for the convenience of an instrument that's solely dedicated to Mellotron sounds, and everything is self-contained. I guess I'm leaning towards the M4000D. Poly aftertouch may not exist in a real Mellotron, but having a nice keyboard makes a difference to me. Any Memotron owners want to chime in?




--
Gino Wong Birgelo  BSComm, BSEE, PhP

ReRed Recording
Girard Hall Studios (ReRed Treehouse)
527 W. Girard Avenue 
Philadelphia, PA 19123 USA   
215 717 7059

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-12 by Tom Doncourt

That’s really silly.. :) Why buy something with the Mellotron name slapped on it when you can just get a perfectly good midi-board that can do everything and some samples, or one of the dozens of workstations that have mellotron samples? That’s if you want somethingg that does “everything”. The whole line between digital mellotrons and tape based is really getting weird….any device that can play mellotron samples is suddenly a mellotron if you slap the mellotron brand on it. The M4000d is a little different because it does emulate the nation of an original mellotron. So then why talk about these things in a mellotron group at all.? weird

On Nov 11, 2015, at 7:23 AM, David Davis feline1@feline1.co.uk [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: Subject: Re: M4000D vs. Memotron
Bernie, 
you're just parroting your standard answers and not engaging with what I'm saying. 

It doesn't matter that on a real tape-based mellotron that's working properly, there's not a 'marshmallow' action that gives the effect of aftertouch.   I'm talking about being able to use the M4000D keyboard as a very nice PolyAT MIDI controller for OTHER things that AREN'T mellotrons.

I know you're sitting there going "What? Things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!  I don't understand! It doesn't compute! How could a musician be interested in things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!??! Are these musicians insane?!" but nevertheless, some people out there actually are, and their musical horizons are slightly broader that asking "Do I sound exactly like a King Crimson LP from 1969? DO I???  No?? Then I am WRONG :(  "




Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-12 by Chris Dale

 "The whole line between digital mellotrons and tape based is really getting weird….any device that can play mellotron samples is suddenly a mellotron if you slap the mellotron brand on it."


I think we've discussed this before. But just to revisit this - the name 'Mellotron' refers to a keyboard instrument that plays pre-recorded tapes. That's the beginning and end of it according to science and patent law, which overrides any commercial business interests. 

Otherwise you could call a Toshiba VHS player a Mellotron as well, or a Sony Walkman, or even a Samsung computer etc.

Or you could call a Pepsi a Coke, or a hot dog a sausage, or an orangutan a gorilla etc. etc.

It the same reason why there is a different classification between 'zebra' 'horse', and 'donkey'. 

They look the same, but they most definitely are not.

Oddly enough this relates to the debate about GMO foods and traditional foods, in that - genetically and lawfully - GMO tomatoes are no longer tomatoes. 


So Markus MKVI, Streetly's M4000 are Mellotrons because of their physical laws.

And technically the Chamberlin and Birotron are Mellotrons as well - because of the tapes.


The Memotron, M4000-D, IPAD 3000 etc. are not Mellotrons because the physics of the tapes do not apply to them.
But that doesn't mean they aren't all useful in their own way as producers of the Mellotron sound. And of course, the sampling concept itself is retained. 

I know that not everyone wants to fiddle with pinch rollers, pressure pads, etc. so in the end, everyone just has to choose what works for them.  I prefer the grandeur of the real things. You hear them, see them, smell them, lift them etc. It's a full experience. 


In the future, there might be a way to have pre-recorded nano-tapes moving inside a digital instrument which would then be a bridge between the two present technologies. 

This could be a 'Mellotron' again. You read it here first!  :)


 

 

 










 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Tom Doncourt tomdcour@amnh.org [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

That’s really silly.. :) Why buy something with the Mellotron name slapped on it when you can just get a perfectly good midi-board that can do everything and some samples, or one of the dozens of workstations that have mellotron samples? That’s if you want somethingg that does “everything”. The whole line between digital mellotrons and tape based is really getting weird….any device that can play mellotron samples is suddenly a mellotron if you slap the mellotron brand on it. The M4000d is a little different because it does emulate the nation of an original mellotron. So then why talk about these things in a mellotron group at all.? weird


On Nov 11, 2015, at 7:23 AM, David Davis feline1@feline1.co.uk [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Subject: Subject: Re: M4000D vs. Memotron
Bernie, 
you're just parroting your standard answers and not engaging with what I'm saying. 

It doesn't matter that on a real tape-based mellotron that's working properly, there's not a 'marshmallow' action that gives the effect of aftertouch.   I'm talking about being able to use the M4000D keyboard as a very nice PolyAT MIDI controller for OTHER things that AREN'T mellotrons.

I know you're sitting there going "What? Things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!  I don't understand! It doesn't compute! How could a musician be interested in things that AREN'T MELLOTRONS?!??! Are these musicians insane?!" but nevertheless, some people out there actually are, and their musical horizons are slightly broader that asking "Do I sound exactly like a King Crimson LP from 1969? DO I???  No?? Then I am WRONG :(  "





Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-13 by Berington Van Campen

An interesting discussion! It was inevitable that with digital sampling technology getting as good and accurate as it is now, these questions would arise, AND that Streetly would have to enter that realm just to stay competitive, while maintaining the original tape-based instruments for which we're all so passionate.

I must admit, I bridge the gap a little, between "Purist" and "using what works," with the M-Tron Pro program. I have my M400 (#1485), but it's been disabled for all-too-long now, so the M-tron has indeed supplied the most-beloved and very necessary Mellotron sounds on my recordings. It does have a huge, categorized library of authentic Mellotron (& other related instruments) sounds of which my l'il 400 can only dream, but playing it, with the great expression one can get with a real Mellotron, is really not the same at all. So I'd rather use the 400 for the sounds it does have, but that'll have to be for another day, with a new motor, maybe tapes... whatever it'll need to get back up & running properly.

At any rate, as I see it, if it's manufactured or even licensed by Streetly, if it's powered by cats chasing mice it doesn't matter, they have every right to put the Mellotron name on the instrument. (And other manufacturers really do NOT. There are lots of tissues, usually called "Kleenex," but only Kimberly-Clark has the right to use the name.)  A "true" Mellotron IS and has always been a "sample player," but originating long before any digital technology existed. If it had existed in the early '60s, I suspect that's exactly what they'd have produced, using the best technology currently available. Foolish not to, right? It could've been that tape-based Mellotrons would never have existed; they'd all have been digital!

So we move up several decades, to a far more digital age. Mellotrons in their "true" form are still being made, thank God (& Streetly!), but the useful variations for convenience, flexibility and accessibility are available, too - FROM them. Caterpillar Inc. makes bulldozers & high-lifts, but they also make a whole variety of other related construction equipment, and who faults them for that? A "Cat" is still a "Cat."

So is a 4000D a Mellotron? Well, it rightly has the name on it... it produces the sounds, and then some. It's not a tape-player, but it's the next logical step, both in practicality and marketing. "Keeping up." Those who aren't busy living, are busy dying. We wouldn't want that to happen to one of our most beloved and revered instruments, nor to the company who thankfully still builds them. If the 4000D makes them competitive, and keeps them in business, GOOD SHOW!  I'd love one myself!  One day!

Keep on keepin' on! And yeah, keep the passion in it!

Cheers!
Berington
 
Berington Van Campen
Van Campen Productions / V.C.MusiCorp Scoring Services / Sessions
VCMusiCorp1@yahoo.com
The BEATUNES - Beatles Tribute Band
www.TheBeatunes.com
(626) 458-4474 - Home/Office
www.facebook.com/berington

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-13 by Bryant Jones

Gentlemen,   Do any of you happen to know if Mike Pinder has weighed in on the recent Mellotron / digital conversation in any publications?...Thank you .....Bryant Jones



On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 12:34 PM, "gino wong wonggster@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
What you describe is a ROMpler or a sampler with a weighted or adjustable action controller, something that has been available for over 20 years. If you want all in one there are Ensoniqs, Kurzweils and piles of other stuff at every price point new and used..  It seems to me that you have an eye on one of those latter paradigm digital recreations branded 'Mellotron' . It's ok, you don't need to seek our approval or disapproval, in actuality because of the deep technical experience on this list, you are not going to get a clean yes on function, value or practicalty.  

In certain circles at certain times, music and it's acoutrements are fashion. Though distateful to me, there is nothing outside of personal asthetics wrong with it unless I am paying the bills.

So do what you want,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:34 AM, loserslounge2000@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Thanks for your responses. I understand that M-Tron Pro and a controller may very well be the best option for recreating Mellotron sounds, but I'm looking for the convenience of an instrument that's solely dedicated to Mellotron sounds, and everything is self-contained. I guess I'm leaning towards the M4000D. Poly aftertouch may not exist in a real Mellotron, but having a nice keyboard makes a difference to me. Any Memotron owners want to chime in?



--
Gino Wong Birgelo  BSComm, BSEE, PhP

ReRed Recording
Girard Hall Studios (ReRed Treehouse)
527 W. Girard Avenue 
Philadelphia, PA 19123 USA   
215 717 7059


Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by jfranmac@gmail.com

Sorry, but this is getting rediculous. The point of this site WAS discussion on Mellotrons. Are we not musicians and artists? I don't understand why one would try to emulate the the emulator which failed at it's attempt but became an organic "weed" all it's own. The truth is: they all sounded/behaved differantly and that is part of the physical aspect of them. You don't just 'hear them- you drive them. Like a Hammond. Mine doesn't sound like yours- but has its unique aspects. There is nothing unique about a manufactured synthesizer/ rom playback machine- they all sound the same. There is a certain amount of spirit that comes into play here. It's the same spirit which has created some fabulous, adventurous music. I say- if you want strings or another instrument like Brass etc.- play a synth. If you want a Mellotron sound- then buy an actual tape-loaded Mellotron.:)

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Andy Kinch

The problem is that if you limit the discussion to just the machines themselves, it will make a forum that is already pretty quiet at times, go to sleep for long periods. The other thing is of course, not everyone can afford or find an original. I think the discussions we have are pretty well balanced tbh.
Andy K

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 05:53, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Sorry, but this is getting rediculous. The point of this site WAS discussion on Mellotrons. Are we not musicians and artists? I don't understand why one would try to emulate the the emulator which failed at it's attempt but became an organic "weed" all it's own. The truth is: they all sounded/behaved differantly and that is part of the physical aspect of them. You don't just 'hear them- you drive them. Like a Hammond. Mine doesn't sound like yours- but has its unique aspects. There is nothing unique about a manufactured synthesizer/ rom playback machine- they all sound the same. There is a certain amount of spirit that comes into play here. It's the same spirit which has created some fabulous, adventurous music. I say- if you want strings or another instrument like Brass etc.- play a synth. If you want a Mellotron sound- then buy an actual tape-loaded Mellotron.:)

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by jfranmac@gmail.com

It IS very quiet here. Not sure why. Maybe the rarity of these machines is the culpret. However- if you are not playing a Mellotron- you are not using a mellotron.todays synths have some real accurate string sounds. If you cant find a Mellotron- just write/play music and don't worry about it. But don't say it's a Mellotron if it's not a tape playback machine.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Andy Kinch

I agree, but legally, it doesn't seem to stand up. When the company was sold back in the day, Streetly couldn't continue to sell Mellotrons, they had to call it something else.. Novatron. Even though by definition is was still a Mellotron.
It's the old Hoover device v Hoover brand name all over. The two co-exist. 
We all know what a Mellotron is, but there is now a blurring that now incorporates the digital realm. Hard to see it ever being dis-entangled. 
AK

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 06:35, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

It IS very quiet here. Not sure why. Maybe the rarity of these machines is the culpret. However- if you are not playing a Mellotron- you are not using a mellotron.todays synths have some real accurate string sounds. If you cant find a Mellotron- just write/play music and don't worry about it. But don't say it's a Mellotron if it's not a tape playback machine.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Chris Dale

"The other thing is of course, not everyone can afford or find an original. I think the discussions we have are pretty well balanced tbh."


This isn't common knowledge in this group, but years ago, back in the early 90's  I spent the time calling everyone and anyone I could think of to find a Mellotron. And I was soon able to afford an original Mellotron (my first one) by working a $10.50/hour job and literally going without eating decent meals and having a social life for a very long long time.  I sacrificed a LOT to get that machine. That's how badly I wanted one. That's how much I loved the sound and the music.

And later on, I worked as a teacher in some pretty poor areas where the classroom itself was not much better than a non air conditioned, non heated garage, (terrible in both the summer and winter) and some of the kids families were so poor they subsisted on junk food from the local convenience store. I used to go to restaurants before class and buy the kids real food, or share most of my lunch with them just so they could get through the class. 

So I don't always have a lot of sympathy when someone says 'they can't afford one'.

That's a bit of a cop out in my opinion. If someone really wants one, they'll get one. Most people today don't know what it's like to literally starve for something you want.

I guess what I'm saying is: it's either a priority or it isn't. And that hard work and perseverance always pays off.

These days the digital choices make things easier, as does the internet. We are spoiled for choice now,  but back then, it was a totally different story. 










 

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

The problem is that if you limit the discussion to just the machines themselves, it will make a forum that is already pretty quiet at times, go to sleep for long periods. The other thing is of course, not everyone can afford or find an original. I think the discussions we have are pretty well balanced tbh.
Andy K

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 05:53, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Sorry, but this is getting rediculous. The point of this site WAS discussion on Mellotrons. Are we not musicians and artists? I don't understand why one would try to emulate the the emulator which failed at it's attempt but became an organic "weed" all it's own. The truth is: they all sounded/behaved differantly and that is part of the physical aspect of them. You don't just 'hear them- you drive them. Like a Hammond. Mine doesn't sound like yours- but has its unique aspects. There is nothing unique about a manufactured synthesizer/ rom playback machine- they all sound the same. There is a certain amount of spirit that comes into play here. It's the same spirit which has created some fabulous, adventurous music. I say- if you want strings or another instrument like Brass etc.- play a synth. If you want a Mellotron sound- then buy an actual tape-loaded Mellotron.:)


Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Chris Dale

"When the company was sold back in the day, Streetly couldn't continue to sell Mellotrons, they had to call it something else.. Novatron. Even though by definition is was still a Mellotron."


This is because in the distribution agreement with Sound Sales, the name Mellotron was unwittingly sold as part of assigning rights to the American Sound Sales company, and not putting in clauses that Streetly still retained the Mellotron name.
American law and British law have major differences. If Sound Sales was based in Britain, this wouldn't have happened that way.

In both cases of 'Novatron' (nova meaning new) and 'Mellotron', the licensing refers to analog instruments.

Digital is completely a whole different animal.

If you go buy some old movies on VHS, you will get your movie (both visuals and soundtrack) in it's entirety.

But if you try to buy that same movie on DVD (blue ray or standard), you might find 're-mastering', or edits in the visuals of the movie as well as especially in the soundtrack. That's because these tampered scenes (which might show a logo or have a piece of music in the background soundtrack) have not been cleared for 'digital rights management' by the copyright owners.

Therefore, an alternate version of the movie is released which is legally defined as not the same original movie.
It is legally a 'variation' of the original.  
That's why you might have a 'theatrical version' or 'directors cut'. Those are not just nicknames. They are different legal entities altogether. 
And it gets worse and worse the more you delve into it (deleted scenes, aspect ratio, music, sound effects etc.). 

Anyway this (very indirectly) relates to Mellotrons in that the physical laws and properties of Mellotrons are not retained by the digital emulations. There are no tapes moving.

Therefore they are not and cannot be Mellotrons regardless of what business and marketing interests would say.

'Science law' always overrules 'business' definitions which are usually at the whim of marketing or economics, and are notoriously and inherently unreliable and untrustworthy because of their changing nature.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with the sound and you can make music with it, it should satisfy without the name 'Mellotron' being invoked.

If someone wants to call it a Mellotron, fine, but it's not really.  I know it's kind of stupid.....but that's what this system in our world has done.

But....if the original Mellotrons had been as common as say the butterfly chair, and there were widespread hybrid analog/digital Mellotrons in the 80's, then the name would become like 'Kleenex' or 'Hoover' and wouldn't matter as much. It could have been assigned to the digital realm more easier.

Anyway, I'm not for or against either side of the logic -  you can argue either way because the sampling concept is still retained. But 'science' and 'law' will not accept it... at all....ever.

This is probably also why you always read 'Hammond Organ' on records instead of just 'organ' (because a Hammond Organ is not a 'pipe' organ) 

Man, I  almost always get a headache discussing this.  







 




On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I agree, but legally, it doesn't seem to stand up. When the company was sold back in the day, Streetly couldn't continue to sell Mellotrons, they had to call it something else.. Novatron. Even though by definition is was still a Mellotron.
It's the old Hoover device v Hoover brand name all over. The two co-exist. 
We all know what a Mellotron is, but there is now a blurring that now incorporates the digital realm. Hard to see it ever being dis-entangled. 
AK

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 06:35, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

It IS very quiet here. Not sure why. Maybe the rarity of these machines is the culpret. However- if you are not playing a Mellotron- you are not using a mellotron.todays synths have some real accurate string sounds. If you cant find a Mellotron- just write/play music and don't worry about it. But don't say it's a Mellotron if it's not a tape playback machine.


Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Andy Kinch

Hoover make great washing machines, but just don't confuse the name with its purpose! 
AK 

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 07:55, Chris Dale unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

"When the company was sold back in the day, Streetly couldn't continue to sell Mellotrons, they had to call it something else.. Novatron. Even though by definition is was still a Mellotron."


This is because in the distribution agreement with Sound Sales, the name Mellotron was unwittingly sold as part of assigning rights to the American Sound Sales company, and not putting in clauses that Streetly still retained the Mellotron name.
American law and British law have major differences. If Sound Sales was based in Britain, this wouldn't have happened that way.

In both cases of 'Novatron' (nova meaning new) and 'Mellotron', the licensing refers to analog instruments.

Digital is completely a whole different animal.

If you go buy some old movies on VHS, you will get your movie (both visuals and soundtrack) in it's entirety.

But if you try to buy that same movie on DVD (blue ray or standard), you might find 're-mastering', or edits in the visuals of the movie as well as especially in the soundtrack. That's because these tampered scenes (which might show a logo or have a piece of music in the background soundtrack) have not been cleared for 'digital rights management' by the copyright owners.

Therefore, an alternate version of the movie is released which is legally defined as not the same original movie.
It is legally a 'variation' of the original.  
That's why you might have a 'theatrical version' or 'directors cut'. Those are not just nicknames. They are different legal entities altogether. 
And it gets worse and worse the more you delve into it (deleted scenes, aspect ratio, music, sound effects etc.). 

Anyway this (very indirectly) relates to Mellotrons in that the physical laws and properties of Mellotrons are not retained by the digital emulations. There are no tapes moving.

Therefore they are not and cannot be Mellotrons regardless of what business and marketing interests would say.

'Science law' always overrules 'business' definitions which are usually at the whim of marketing or economics, and are notoriously and inherently unreliable and untrustworthy because of their changing nature.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with the sound and you can make music with it, it should satisfy without the name 'Mellotron' being invoked.

If someone wants to call it a Mellotron, fine, but it's not really.  I know it's kind of stupid.....but that's what this system in our world has done.

But....if the original Mellotrons had been as common as say the butterfly chair, and there were widespread hybrid analog/digital Mellotrons in the 80's, then the name would become like 'Kleenex' or 'Hoover' and wouldn't matter as much. It could have been assigned to the digital realm more easier.

Anyway, I'm not for or against either side of the logic -  you can argue either way because the sampling concept is still retained. But 'science' and 'law' will not accept it... at all....ever.

This is probably also why you always read 'Hammond Organ' on records instead of just 'organ' (because a Hammond Organ is not a 'pipe' organ) 

Man, I  almost always get a headache discussing this.  







 




On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I agree, but legally, it doesn't seem to stand up. When the company was sold back in the day, Streetly couldn't continue to sell Mellotrons, they had to call it something else.. Novatron. Even though by definition is was still a Mellotron.
It's the old Hoover device v Hoover brand name all over. The two co-exist. 
We all know what a Mellotron is, but there is now a blurring that now incorporates the digital realm. Hard to see it ever being dis-entangled. 
AK

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Nov 2015, at 06:35, jfranmac@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

It IS very quiet here. Not sure why. Maybe the rarity of these machines is the culpret. However- if you are not playing a Mellotron- you are not using a mellotron.todays synths have some real accurate string sounds. If you cant find a Mellotron- just write/play music and don't worry about it. But don't say it's a Mellotron if it's not a tape playback machine.


Re: Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Berington Van Campen

Wow. Everybody's making great points, and it is a significant discussion, Mellotrons being the passionate subject they clearly are.

Perhaps the terminology - and the instruments themselves - could be better defined if for example, the M4000D weren't CALLED a Mellotron, because it's not rolling tapes, but be called the "M4000D Sample Player (or whatever) BY Mellotron." That would be factual, without ambiguity. It IS that, at least, and would deservedly have the Mellotron name on  it.

I fully agree with appreciating the "feel" of a real Mellotron. It does make you play differently than any other keyboard: it's not a "piano action" or organ or anything else. The time limit on each note, and for me, having the swell pedal makes a huge difference. To date I've not found a way to add in a MIDI or other type volume pedal when using M-Tron Pro. Aside from the variations between individual instruments, etc., and the "feel" of any particular one, to me that's one of the defining parts of a real Mellotron - the dynamics you can get between the various "play factors" and the volume pedal. 

Fact is, a tape-based Mellotron is the real thing, and anything else WILL be a compromise, if for no other reason than, as pointed out, every repeated note will sound exactly the same. Even if it's clean and wonderful, and serves different purposes even better, such as portability, no tangled tapes, etc., it'll still be a compromise. (Btw, no, I've never experienced a tangled or stretched tape, thank God. But some notoriously have. I can sympathize.)

It's a pleasure doing pleasure with you all!

Cheers!
Berington
 
Berington Van Campen
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Re: [newmellotrongroup] Fwd: Unable to deliver your message

2015-11-14 by Bryant Jones

Thank you much for the video....



On Friday, November 13, 2015 4:30 PM, "Bryant Jones mellotronproject@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Gentlemen,   Do any of you happen to know if Mike Pinder has weighed in on the recent Mellotron / digital conversation in any publications?...Thank you .....Bryant Jones



On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 12:34 PM, "gino wong wonggster@gmail.com [newmellotrongroup]" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
What you describe is a ROMpler or a sampler with a weighted or adjustable action controller, something that has been available for over 20 years. If you want all in one there are Ensoniqs, Kurzweils and piles of other stuff at every price point new and used..  It seems to me that you have an eye on one of those latter paradigm digital recreations branded 'Mellotron' . It's ok, you don't need to seek our approval or disapproval, in actuality because of the deep technical experience on this list, you are not going to get a clean yes on function, value or practicalty.  

In certain circles at certain times, music and it's acoutrements are fashion. Though distateful to me, there is nothing outside of personal asthetics wrong with it unless I am paying the bills.

So do what you want,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:34 AM, loserslounge2000@yahoo.com [newmellotrongroup] <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Thanks for your responses. I understand that M-Tron Pro and a controller may very well be the best option for recreating Mellotron sounds, but I'm looking for the convenience of an instrument that's solely dedicated to Mellotron sounds, and everything is self-contained. I guess I'm leaning towards the M4000D. Poly aftertouch may not exist in a real Mellotron, but having a nice keyboard makes a difference to me. Any Memotron owners want to chime in?



--
Gino Wong Birgelo  BSComm, BSEE, PhP

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