MOTM

> I promised someone on this list schematics of the CLS-222.  Well, I
finally
> found them and have the copies made and cannot remember who I promised
them
> to.

Best Lesley simulation ever. They are so cheap now - grab it if you see
one. These contain 4 BBD lines, btw.
I have two, one original and one clone.

JH.

> I agree.  I have one and will NEVER part with it.
> Larry H

The crazy thing is that Dynacord could not even come close
to this with their later models. And I don't think it's that
old analog vs. digital question - more like retiring the old
ingineers who knew the "secret".

JH.

I agree.  I have one and will NEVER part with it.
Larry H

----------

> From: jhaible <jhaible@...>
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] OT: Dynacord CLS-222
> Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 7:24 PM
> 
> 
> > I promised someone on this list schematics of the CLS-222.  Well, I
> finally
> > found them and have the copies made and cannot remember who I promised
> them
> > to.
> 
> Best Lesley simulation ever. They are so cheap now - grab it if you see
> one. These contain 4 BBD lines, btw.
> I have two, one original and one clone.
> 
> JH.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Act NOW before June 30 to win $5,000!
> Start grading businesses in your area to win.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5524/5/_/529958/_/961547317/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>

My only complaint with the unit us that the LPF is fixed to emulate the
Hammond / Leslie frequency response.  I would have much preferred to have
the roll off point in the LPF as a front panel control.  I am thinking
about modifying mine to make it so.  There are times when I would really
like the upper frequency response NOT to be so poor intentionally.
Larry H.

----------

> From: jhaible <jhaible@...>
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] OT: Dynacord CLS-222
> Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:19 PM
> 
> 
> > I agree.  I have one and will NEVER part with it.
> > Larry H
> 
> The crazy thing is that Dynacord could not even come close
> to this with their later models. And I don't think it's that
> old analog vs. digital question - more like retiring the old
> ingineers who knew the "secret".
> 
> JH.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Old school buds here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5545/5/_/529958/_/961550457/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>

> My only complaint with the unit us that the LPF is fixed to emulate the
> Hammond / Leslie frequency response.  I would have much preferred to have
> the roll off point in the LPF as a front panel control.  I am thinking
> about modifying mine to make it so.  There are times when I would really
> like the upper frequency response NOT to be so poor intentionally.
> Larry H.

Exactly ! One thing I wanted to do for a long time !

JH.

jhaible wrote:
> Best Lesley simulation ever. They are so cheap now - grab it if you see
> one. These contain 4 BBD lines, btw.
> I have two, one original and one clone.
> 
Did you clone it exactly, or did you substitute any parts?
Larry mentioned having one and wanting to modify the rolloff
for more high end.

I want to clone one. Does it use SAD1024s? I'm really curious
about the unit now (as if I wasn't already before), most of
the leslie simulators I heard used filtering (and weren't 
very good).

Tomy

Larry wrote:
> My only complaint with the unit us that the LPF is fixed to emulate the
> Hammond / Leslie frequency response.  I would have much preferred to have
> the roll off point in the LPF as a front panel control.  I am thinking
> about modifying mine to make it so.  There are times when I would really
> like the upper frequency response NOT to be so poor intentionally.

Thomas Hudson wrote (without reading the entire thread):
> Larry mentioned having one and wanting to modify the rolloff
> for more high end.

Note to self: Read entire thread before responding.

Tomy

> Did you clone it exactly, or did you substitute any parts?

I'm not sure how close it is. My schemos are not very readable,
so I had to make some assumptions. Also, I used 13700's
instead of 3280's in the LFOs.

> I want to clone one.

Don't. They are so cheap now. If you're lucky you can get them for
DM 300 (150 Dollars), and even dealers offer them for DM 500.

>  Does it use SAD1024s? I'm really curious

No, TDA1022.

JH.

jhaible wrote:
> Best Lesley simulation ever. They are so cheap now - grab it if you see
> one. These contain 4 BBD lines, btw.
> I have two, one original and one clone.
> 
I found one for sale, but they want $350 for it. I'm still 
debating that price (not having heard one). I use to play
through a real one until I got tired of lugging this big
piece of furniture around. It was also hard to get the 
miking to sound as good as being in the room with it.
The digital emulations I've heard didn't really excite
me.

Tomy

I think the more proper price in the US is $250 to $300 these days.  $350
is a bit high IMHO.
Larry H.

----------

> From: Thomas Hudson <thudson@...>
>
> I found one for sale, but they want $350 for it. I'm still 
> debating that price (not having heard one). I use to play
> through a real one until I got tired of lugging this big
> piece of furniture around. It was also hard to get the 
> miking to sound as good as being in the room with it.
> The digital emulations I've heard didn't really excite
> me.
> 
> Tomy

In a message dated 6/20/00 9:22:30 PM, jhaible@... writes:

<< The crazy thing is that Dynacord could not even come close to this with 
their later models. And I don't think it's that old analog vs. digital 
question - more like retiring the old ingineers who knew the "secret". >>

I was working at Electro-Voice/Mark IV Audio during  and after the 
acquisition of Dynacord.  Great bunch of guys in Germany... Gunter Krauss is 
still there, as head of engineering I believe.  My opinion is that the 
CLS-222 was just one of those cases of getting it RIGHT.  The later DLS 
models were cool in many ways but were just way over-engineered (as are a lot 
of German electronic products) and they were TOO much and TOO perfect in what 
they did.  The CLS-222 is still the choice of many studio and touring pros; 
it is a great unit (and I'm pissed I didn't pick one up when I was there!).  
Put it in the category of the Fender Twin Reverb.... is just works, and 
nobody is quite sure why.

Ivan

In a message dated 6/23/2000 6:43:29 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>Leslie simulation is an art, not a science.  The CLS-222 certainly came
>closest in my opinion.  


Add a Leslie simulator to the MOTM wish list. Especially since the US prices 
seem to be double what JH has seen in Europe.


Hammond simulation is a science in fact.  And,
>not easily done with any type of synth.  You just need too many oscillators
>to properly do the job. 


Maybe another MOTM module? Would this be worthwhile?

JB

Maybe another MOTM module? Would this be worthwhile?
JB


Well, there was talk of a top down divider a long time ago.
LH

In a message dated 00-06-23 21:43:46 EDT, you write:

<<  Hammond simulation is a science in fact >>


larry,
not to mention the even more versatile and synth-like hammond novachord! an 
awesome machine in its own right. had a chance to play around with one years 
back, wish i could afford to buy one but the last few i saw listed anywhere 
were all well over $2k. :^(
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 06/23/2000 7:31:25 PM, vulture.squadron@... writes:

<< does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what kind of MOTM system would be 
needed for Hammond / Leslie simulation..? >>

Not to quash all this creative talk, but while it might be a fun excercise it 
seems kind of silly to try to do something with a huge amount of gear that is 
has already been done quite well by a single rack-mount piece.  Korg also has 
a little stomp box that does quite well (a friend of mine who is a VERY good 
R&B organist uses his Korg CX-3 through this stomp box and it sounds 
amazingly like his real B-3/Leslie 122 at home).

While I'm sure Paul S. could develop an MOTM Leslie module (which would 
probably require some form of true delay rather than a phaser-type filter 
section), wouldn't we all want him to work on projects that are unique and 
not readily available?

Ivan

hello all,

just to clarify, i'm not after a hammond simulator (not a great fan), or a
leslie simulator - it was just that as i was taking the thing to bits, i
began to see it in a modular fashion, each unique characteristic of that
leslie being definable as a building block or module that in theory could be
emulated (whether via a CLS222, modular system, or software plug-in) - i
just thought it would be a fun idea to boot around the list

cheers
paul b

In a message dated 6/24/2000 7:40:20 AM, ivancu@... writes:

>Korg also has 
>a little stomp box that does quite well (a friend of mine who is a VERY
>good 
>R&B organist uses his Korg CX-3 through this stomp box and it sounds 
>amazingly like his real B-3/Leslie 122 at home).

I might like to look into this stomp box (mainly for guitar, of course) -- do 
you happen to know what it's called?

JB

> Add a Leslie simulator to the MOTM wish list. Especially since
> the US prices
> seem to be double what JH has seen in Europe.
>
>
> Hammond simulation is a science in fact.  And,
> >not easily done with any type of synth.  You just need too many
> oscillators
> >to properly do the job.
>
>
> Maybe another MOTM module? Would this be worthwhile?
>

Sorry folks. Waste of time. I've tried them all. I've searched for the
ultimate portable giggable Hammond solution since I first started lugging
one 30 years ago. I've built chopped Hammonds, chopped Leslies, owned Korg
CX-3's Roland VKs, etc etc etc. I've played all the current crop of modelled
emulators. The sampled ones I can play for about 30 seconds before the out
of tune upper partials drive me crazy. The fully modelled generator ones I
can play awhile longer, but it's like playing your little old aunt's antique
Baldwin in the end. It's like kissing your sister. It's like virtual
synthesis versus MOTM!

If you are satisfied to play a few pad chords in a supporting role in a loud
rock situation, by all means use a clone.

If you want be an organ player, not a keyboardist or synthesist, it's gotta
have full polyphony when you mash your forearm down. It's gotta scream when
you do a rip up the keyboard to high C and stomp the Leslie switch. It's
gotta whisper when you back off and take you to church. Cool jazz and hot
rock. It's gotta make you smile and say AAAHHHH when you pull out the bottom
3 drawbars and just play simple triads. It's gotta smirk  and say "Is that
all you got suckah?!" in response to you losing control and trying to beat
the snot out of it in the heat of battle. It's gotta show you who's boss by
cutting your forearm wide open when you break a key from doing a rip too
hard. It's gotta have SOUL. You don't play a Hammond, you are permitted to
worship it. You don't own a Hammond, you are it's caretaker. Accept no
substitutes. You have been warned!

MOTM and Hammond, a classic combination.

Moe
1958 custom B-3, 1959 Blonde C-3

> Add a Leslie simulator to the MOTM wish list. Especially since the US
prices
> seem to be double what JH has seen in Europe.

Just think about how many MOTM VCOs you'd need for the tonewheels
of the Hammond to match.
IMO, something like a Lesley simulator is such a specialized thing that
I would not see it among the -say- 50 first modules of a modular system.

And even if you pay 300 Dollars for a used 222, you get a good value
for money. Keep in mind that there is the equivalent of four (!)
typical chorus / flanger boxes inside there. Want to emulate it with
a modular? Here we go:

2 VC quadrature LFOs (volume modulation, pann+ing and dopper shift
   require 90 degrees phase shift of modulation signal)
2 AR envelopes for horn and rotor speed
4 BBD delays for dopper effect and first reflections inside the enclosure
   (my guess of interpreting the circuit - not confirmed)
4 HF clock generators with VC period rather than VC frequency (something
   everybody else apparently neglected)
2 VC Panners, one of them with frequency dependent stereo spread (for
   bass rotor)
Some filters to shape the overall frequency response.

JH.

> I might like to look into this stomp box (mainly for guitar, of course) --
do
> you happen to know what it's called?

If that's the G4, don't expect too much. I ordered one when there was
a sellout for less than half the list price, but I sent it back the next
day.
It's ridiculous, compared to the old Dynacord ones.
(Wich are - who would deny it - ridiculous compared to a real one.)
The Korg does the panning, it does the volume modulation, and it does
the frequency modulation, but it does not produce the combined effect
of a two circular moving sound sources, as the 222 does.

JH.

In a message dated 06/24/2000 1:31:41 PM, jwbarlow@... writes:

<< I might like to look into this stomp box (mainly for guitar, of course) -- 
do 
you happen to know what it's called? >>

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/1994_articles/sep94/korgg4.html

Korg G4.  I think it is discontinued now, but you can find them on eBay and 
at used effect dealers.  Here's a guy listing one for $150 (the top review):

http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Korg/G4_Rotary_Speaker_Simulator-0
1.html

Digitech is blowing out the RPM-1 for $200:

http://outlet.digitech.com/Close_Outs.html

I have heard these sound pretty good, but haven't heard one myself.  They 
have a real tube distortion preamp.

Ivan

And... you can check out the following from Hughes & Kettner:

http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/TubeTools/rotosphere.htm

I've also heard good things about these German-made Leslie simulators.  
Again, no first-hand experience.

Ivan

In a message dated 00-06-24 12:27:52 EDT, you write:

<<  i
 just thought it would be a fun idea to boot around the list
  >>


paul,
i would agree with that. while maybe not a good module idea, if a person has 
the available hardware, its a fun thing to mess around with various 
combinations of modules. and. looking beyond "leslie simulation", there are 
probably some useful sounds to be found.
best,
dave v.