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More random EG thoughts

More random EG thoughts

2000-02-03 by Dave Bradley

More Stooge blathering -

1. ASR vs AR: The reason I envisioned needing a mode switch is that for AR,
I think you'd want the attack phase to always complete fully before release
starts, so it works correctly with very short triggers and long attack
times. But with ASR, you want release to start immediately when the gate
goes low. Hence, a switch tells the EG how to behave, but at the expense of
panel real estate. I personally don't like half click input jacks, because
now you are hiding functionality and you can't just glance at the panel in a
dense patch and see how it's set (sorry to disagree, Chris! ;>)

2. 1U vs 2U, simple versus complex, flexible versus affordable: we really
have 2 conversations going, one about a simple VC AR, maybe chainable or
retriggerable, and the other about a super whizbang multistage VC DADSR or
level/time based EG. These are incompatible goals, so we should realize we
are talking about at least 2 different modules. I like the idea of 1U for
the simple case because if I want to chain 3 or 4 together, I don't want to
burn 8U of space. The interesting thing about the complex module being
talked about is that it will end up being 4U wide or more to get enough
knobs on it, or you'll have to have a processor to multiplex them. By this
time, you have the makings of a minisequencer, or JH's interpolating
scanner. If you are devoting this much expense and panel space, your module
may as well be able to do other things, too.

Matter of fact, I think the interpolating scanner is an incredible module,
and Paul should offer it in a MOTM module (fortunately, JH already designs
for MOTM!) It will already do something very close to the multiple break
point EG functions, and will also allow VC crossfading of audio. For a
description, see:

http://www.synthfool.com/diy/jh_ipscan.html

3. Back to the simple design. The idea of the END signal needs ironing out.
First, if you plan on retriggering the EG as an oscillator, you have to have
either a switch to sum the output pulse back to the input, or a second gate
input jack. If you are to use it for chaining, however, the logic gets a
little complicated as you propogate these signals down several modules. I'm
not sure how it should work if you have a module somewhere in the middle set
for ASR mode - then the END signal of the previous stage has to terminate at
some point for the envelope to move on to other stages. I'll have to think
about this some more. Maybe the answer is TWO separate 1U simple AR modules,
one with VC delay, another with the mode switch.

Blah blah over and out,

Moe

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-03 by Christopher Jeris

Dave Bradley says:
> I personally don't like half click input jacks, because
> now you are hiding functionality and you can't just glance at the panel in a
> dense patch and see how it's set (sorry to disagree, Chris! ;>)

Can't you just add a LED next to the jack?  *grin*

> Maybe the answer is TWO separate 1U simple AR modules,
> one with VC delay, another with the mode switch.

YES.  I think we should be thinking about several different simple designs
and combinations of features, with an eye to using them together to
achieve more complicated effects.

I like Larry's "Time/Level" idea - but if you want voltage control two
stages will not fit in a 1U module.  Here is a front panel for a 2U
three-stage VC time/level module: (knobs in caps, jacks in lowercase)
TIME 1		LEVEL 1		LEVEL pots run -5 .. +5
TIME 2		LEVEL 2
TIME 3		LEVEL 3
t1 cv	l1 cv	trig	gate
t2 cv	l2 cv	end	gate thru
t3 cv	l3 cv	+out	-out
You're gonna smack me for this but - put a detent at the top of the TIME 2
pot.  Then when you click it past 10 into the detent, stage 2 lasts as
long as the gate signal.

Okay, maybe that's a little baroque and we might as well do the uP type
thing.  But as long as everybody else is making stuff up I might as well
join in :)

peace,
Chris Jeris

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-04 by JWBarlow@aol.com

First: I have a question for any gurus reading this. Would someone please 
give me a mathematical explanation of how the ATTACK (rising) and DECAY or 
RELEASE (falling) controls change their respective rates? I'm wondering how 
the curves are changing and how the knobs control those changes (if you read 
my post about MoaEG, you may know why I'm asking this).

In a message dated 2/3/2000 9:03:02 AM, daveb@... writes:
>2. 1U vs 2U, simple versus complex, flexible versus affordable: we really
>have 2 conversations going, one about a simple VC AR, maybe chainable or
>retriggerable, and the other about a super whizbang multistage VC DADSR
>or
>level/time based EG. 

Uh! We're having way more than two EG conversations going here. But I think 
each of the concepts has merit:
1) VC DADSR -- proposed module from long ago.
2) (DUAL) VC AD/AR -- main topic of discussion recently.
3) MoaEG -- though dismissed by some, there is great promise in such a module 
and Paul, Crow, Roy, and others could make the most powerful and easy to 
operate multi stage EG available within a year or two.

These are incompatible goals, so we should realize
>we
>are talking about at least 2 different modules. I like the idea of 1U for
>the simple case because if I want to chain 3 or 4 together, I don't want
>to
>burn 8U of space. 

My original suggestion was for a DUAL (or triple) 2U (now VC) AD/AR, since 
AD/AR envelopes aren't all that interesting, especially if used for 
controlling VCAs and VCFs. They can, however, be more interesting when you've 
got a lot of them. I also think that a 2U would be reasonably cheap (maybe 
$150 given the number of pots and the lack of specialty components). I also 
seem to remember Paul preferring to have all the 1U panels have the same hole 
pattern as the 800. 

I think it very unlikely that Paul will offer two different VC AD/AR modules 
(at least within the near future). I also think that VC delay is useful, but 
not very often. So let me propose that a dual VC GATE delay module could be 
offered. These could be used as VC gate delay (probably just done with a 
556). Such a module could possibly also be used for Dave V.'s SUSTAIN time 
control, and maybe Hugo's peak control -- still waiting for a more complete 
explanation of that one, Hugo.

JB

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-04 by hodad1@mindspring.com

Me personally, I like the VC DA(S)R as the 1U EG.  I think it more or less
wipes out the need for
a DADSR module & saves us all a U in our panel.  If I'm worried about panel
real estate, I'd certainly take
2 DAR' s over one DADSR.  & the need for ultra complex envelopes could be
addressed by a 2 or 3U
extra fancy super duper etc. etc.

Just one man's opinion.
tomr

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-04 by Hugo Haesaert

Hi All !

Hope there's no limit to the no of posts in any one day :)

On the peak issue .
I've only played a Mini a few times, eons ago, so my observations on 
this stem mostly from my time with the F\ufffdnix .  

It's EG1 has following controls :  Attack time, Peak time, Decay 
time, Sustain level, Release Time .  The Peak time gives control of 
how long the env remains at max level, turning the "shape" into a 
trapezoid .  When the time's up, the Decay kicks in .  At shorter A 
and D times this gives more "body" to the hit, as you get full volume 
or whatever for this short time .  The mini's envelopes are said to 
always do this .  Having a knob to control this "feature" is way more 
versatile .  The parameter is not voltage controlled though, in the 
F\ufffdnix .  Could be interesting to let pitch cv (or it's inverse) 
control (some of) this peak, or/and velocity, or/and whatever .  As 
you see, this parameter has to be built into the EG itself .

         ___      <-----peak at max V
        /   \
       /     \
      /       \_________
     /                  \
  __/                    \___________


Ha, ascimatic is fun :)

Now combine this with sustain at zero V for extra enjoyment ...
i hope .

Fog cleared up ?

Take care .


Keep 'em oscillating :)


Hugo
=

RE: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-04 by Dave Bradley

I dig the peak control - it could also be labelled "smack" or "punch" for
its effect on the volume envelope.

I'm not clear on what musical use I'd put an envelope that's biased so that
sustain is 0V though - can you enlighten me?

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugo Haesaert [mailto:hugo.haesaert@...]
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:41 AM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] More random EG thoughts
>
>
> From: "Hugo Haesaert" <hugo.haesaert@...>
>
> Hi All !
>
> Hope there's no limit to the no of posts in any one day :)
>
> On the peak issue .
> I've only played a Mini a few times, eons ago, so my observations on
> this stem mostly from my time with the F\ufffdnix .
>
> It's EG1 has following controls :  Attack time, Peak time, Decay
> time, Sustain level, Release Time .  The Peak time gives control of
> how long the env remains at max level, turning the "shape" into a
> trapezoid .  When the time's up, the Decay kicks in .  At shorter A
> and D times this gives more "body" to the hit, as you get full volume
> or whatever for this short time .  The mini's envelopes are said to
> always do this .  Having a knob to control this "feature" is way more
> versatile .  The parameter is not voltage controlled though, in the
> F\ufffdnix .  Could be interesting to let pitch cv (or it's inverse)
> control (some of) this peak, or/and velocity, or/and whatever .  As
> you see, this parameter has to be built into the EG itself .
>
>          ___      <-----peak at max V
>         /   \
>        /     \
>       /       \_________
>      /                  \
>   __/                    \___________
>
>
> Ha, ascimatic is fun :)
>
> Now combine this with sustain at zero V for extra enjoyment ...
> i hope .
>
> Fog cleared up ?
>
> Take care .
>
>
> Keep 'em oscillating :)
>
>
> Hugo
> =
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> eGroups' Valentine's Day Gift Guide - Shop Here Now:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/SparksValentine4 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

RE: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-04 by Tkacs, Ken

You could have it modulate the pitch of a VCO for koto-like effects, where
the note starts of lower than what you played, sweeps higher than what you
played, then settles down to the exact pitch at the Sustain level (zero v)
and when you release the key, it falls away low again.

Just one thought.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Dave Bradley [mailto:daveb@...]
		Sent:	Friday, February 04, 2000 2:21 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	RE: [motm] More random EG thoughts

		From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>

		I dig the peak control - it could also be labelled "smack"
or "punch" for
		its effect on the volume envelope.

		I'm not clear on what musical use I'd put an envelope that's
biased so that
		sustain is 0V though - can you enlighten me?

		Dave Bradley
		Principal Software Engineer
		Engineering Animation, Inc.
		daveb@...

		> -----Original Message-----
		> From: Hugo Haesaert [mailto:hugo.haesaert@...]
		> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:41 AM
		> To: motm@onelist.com
		> Subject: Re: [motm] More random EG thoughts
		>
		>
		> From: "Hugo Haesaert" <hugo.haesaert@...>
		>
		> Hi All !
		>
		> Hope there's no limit to the no of posts in any one day :)
		>
		> On the peak issue .
		> I've only played a Mini a few times, eons ago, so my
observations on
		> this stem mostly from my time with the F\ufffdnix .
		>
		> It's EG1 has following controls :  Attack time, Peak time,
Decay
		> time, Sustain level, Release Time .  The Peak time gives
control of
		> how long the env remains at max level, turning the "shape"
into a
		> trapezoid .  When the time's up, the Decay kicks in .  At
shorter A
		> and D times this gives more "body" to the hit, as you get
full volume
		> or whatever for this short time .  The mini's envelopes
are said to
		> always do this .  Having a knob to control this "feature"
is way more
		> versatile .  The parameter is not voltage controlled
though, in the
		> F\ufffdnix .  Could be interesting to let pitch cv (or it's
inverse)
		> control (some of) this peak, or/and velocity, or/and
whatever .  As
		> you see, this parameter has to be built into the EG itself
.
		>
		>          ___      <-----peak at max V
		>         /   \
		>        /     \
		>       /       \_________
		>      /                  \
		>   __/                    \___________
		>
		>
		> Ha, ascimatic is fun :)
		>
		> Now combine this with sustain at zero V for extra
enjoyment ...
		> i hope .
		>
		> Fog cleared up ?
		>
		> Take care .
		>
		>
		> Keep 'em oscillating :)
		>
		>
		> Hugo
		> =
		>
		> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
		>
		> eGroups' Valentine's Day Gift Guide - Shop Here Now:
		> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/SparksValentine4
">Click Here</a>
		>
		>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
		>
		>


		--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------

		Shop for your Valentine at eGroups.
		<a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/SparksValentine6
">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-05 by J. Larry Hendry

I like this feature.
LH

----------
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Hugo Haesaert <hugo.haesaert@...>
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] More random EG thoughts
> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:40 AM
> 
> From: "Hugo Haesaert" <hugo.haesaert@...>
> 
> Hi All !
> 
> Hope there's no limit to the no of posts in any one day :)
> 
> On the peak issue .
> I've only played a Mini a few times, eons ago, so my observations on 
> this stem mostly from my time with the F\ufffdnix .  
> 
> It's EG1 has following controls :  Attack time, Peak time, Decay 
> time, Sustain level, Release Time .  The Peak time gives control of 
> how long the env remains at max level, turning the "shape" into a 
> trapezoid .  When the time's up, the Decay kicks in .  At shorter A 
> and D times this gives more "body" to the hit, as you get full volume 
> or whatever for this short time .  The mini's envelopes are said to 
> always do this .  Having a knob to control this "feature" is way more 
> versatile .  The parameter is not voltage controlled though, in the 
> F\ufffdnix .  Could be interesting to let pitch cv (or it's inverse) 
> control (some of) this peak, or/and velocity, or/and whatever .  As 
> you see, this parameter has to be built into the EG itself .
> 
>          ___      <-----peak at max V
>         /   \
>        /     \
>       /       \_________
>      /                  \
>   __/                    \___________
> 
> 
> Ha, ascimatic is fun :)
> 
> Now combine this with sustain at zero V for extra enjoyment ...
> i hope .
> 
> Fog cleared up ?
> 
> Take care .
> 
> 
> Keep 'em oscillating :)
> 
> 
> Hugo
> =
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> eGroups' Valentine's Day Gift Guide - Shop Here Now:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/SparksValentine4 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>

Re: More random EG thoughts

2000-02-05 by DAVEVOSH@aol.com

In a message dated 00-02-04 14:38:50 EST, you write:

<< 
 I'm not clear on what musical use I'd put an envelope that's biased so that
 sustain is 0V though - can you enlighten me?
  >>



dave,
try it out on a vcf - bias your env. output to start below 0vdc.. can also 
give some interesting pitch attack envelopes when hooked in to a vco and 
mixed in in small quantities.
best,
dave

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