Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Paul Schreiber

Why not let Scott make the decision?

We have had several discussions about this already. He’s my panel vendor now, so the has ‘skin in the game’.

The way I would do it is:

a) Make the prototype pc boards on my dime

b) Make sure they work OK, the software may not be 100% but enough to test (like can read CVs from the A/D, etc)

c) Post to Kickstarter

d) See what happens

My SMT assembler is averaging 3 weeks to turn boards. That’s also about the time to run panels. So call it 4 weeks for all the parts to arrive (the 3rd item is the ribbon cable between the pot board and main board, my supplier is also 2-3 weeks there). The assembler has to wait for the pc boards to arrive, they average 18 days. So it would be ~ 8 weeks from end of funding goal (the goals run 30 days).

I can’t think of a better way for everyone to show support. If the new 5U modules are a “hit” then that is evidence to Scott the risk is minimal. If I put the projects up there and sell 14 modules then that’s probably the end of the line from me. Scott has 100% rights to so anything he wants to on his own. He has rights to the MOTM name and all the older modules. I am not preventing him from making 10 new designs, to hire other designers, etc.

I am just speaking for my involvement.

BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Stephen Drake

On Aug 19, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

>
>
> BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.
>
> Paul S.
>

Aha, something that maybe I can have some input on. Yes, the MT and the CG would be the perfect first candidates.

First the whole kickstarter idea is a pretty good one, although I'm not terribly happy with being held hostage with the "3 successful kickstarters if I'm going to continue with 5U" thing you stated. I'd prefer a 2 out of 3 option. Or maybe 3 out of 5? Lots of kickstarters don't achieve full funding - that's what they're all about, determining market interest. You could create a dozen of them, basically for next to nothing - you're not committed until full funding is achieved - and if only a handful actually stick, well, then you'll know what to do. Lets not forget about the 730 (are there any left? Send them to Scott!) - a bunch was invested in it despite not much up front interest, and when it didn't sell, well, there haven't been any new 5U modules - honest mistakes can be made.

The Morphing Terrarium should be Kickstarter Number One. It's a super monster killer module as is, and with a few improvements could possibly be the module that saves the MOTM 5U boat. Every MOTM system should have one! I have the euro version behind a 5U panel, and use it all the time - it's sound source number one for me. What it needs to make it perfect are dedicated vc control knobs for the morph cv inputs; the phase and glitch switches on the front panel, not jumpers; a better dac to clean up the aliasing at higher frequencies; and the range switch fixed so it's only 2 ranges, audio and LFO instead of the weird 3 ranges that don't really work right as it is currently. Everything else is fine as it is - it doesn't need a lcd, especially if that involves requiring the 6 pin power connector - if you really need a 5v line use a .25$ L7805. I've managed to fit all this neatly on a 2U panel, as has Dave Brown in a slightly different design, so this should be option Numero Uno.

The Cloud Generator should have it's time, finally. It's been in the planning stages for what, 10 years now? And it's also the best "supersaw" module that exists currently - sure, there are a bunch of addon modules that'll turn a regular vco into a supersaw, but this is the real deal, all in one module. And more! Again, it needs the dedicated cv level knobs for the various cv inputs. Otherwise this one is almost perfect as is - I don't have my e340 here currently (you do!) so can't remember if there was something about one of the knobs that has a funny range or something. Again, this one fits behind a 2U panel just fine - I have complementary panels for the e340-e350, so they look great next to each other.

The third kickstarter - I don't know. The uSeq might be nice, but I don't know if it'd achieve full funding. The new improved 101, with correct clock behavior (samples taken at the start of the clock pulse) might be a possibility. The e560-e580 are pretty obvious candidates - the 560, the frequency shifter/phaser would probably be the strongest candidate for kickstarter number 3 (I'm waiting for euro guts to build my own 5U versions so can't really speak to their usefulness yet).

So there you have it - my .02$. And worth every penny!

-Steve

RE: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Greg James

I will commit to 2 of each.

I have to go back to look at the specs of the Cloud Generator, but I’d really like it to be able to generate independent sine waves to be used as an additive synthesis VCO. If I remember correctly, the CG generates 8 waves? So 4 of these generating 8 waves each would roughly equal the VCOs of a Synergy. I may be all wrong with my memory here.

Additive Synthesis is something that would open up a whole new branch of sound design in the modular realm. As it is, I’m using my Synergy and K5000S for this, but the flexibility of my modular would make it really interesting.

-Greg

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Schreiber
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:14 AM
To: 'Jim Black'; 'MOTM'
Subject: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

Why not let Scott make the decision?

We have had several discussions about this already. He’s my panel vendor now, so the has ‘skin in the game’.

The way I would do it is:

a) Make the prototype pc boards on my dime

b) Make sure they work OK, the software may not be 100% but enough to test (like can read CVs from the A/D, etc)

c) Post to Kickstarter

d) See what happens

I am just speaking for my involvement.

BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.

Paul S.

RE: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Paul Schreiber

a) none of the new 5U modules will need +5V for the initial batch

b) I understand that some may fund and some may not. I have no problems only
shipping ones that fund.

c) the third module is the '101 replacement with added features. I will
discuss that when the Euro version is announced (in about 4 weeks).

Think of Euro being the guinea pig for 5U :)

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Ben Stuyts

Paul, I'd support you on Kickstarter. Give it a go and see what happens. Just ship me the 480 kit before that, pretty please...

Best,
Ben

On 19 aug. 2012, at 21:05, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:

> a) none of the new 5U modules will need +5V for the initial batch
>
> b) I understand that some may fund and some may not. I have no problems only
> shipping ones that fund.
>
> c) the third module is the '101 replacement with added features. I will
> discuss that when the Euro version is announced (in about 4 weeks).
>
> Think of Euro being the guinea pig for 5U :)
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by George Kisslak

MT #1

CG #2

e580 #3

What just happened?? ;)

Anyway, I fully understand the business issues. I am fine with whatever mechanism will get me these modules in 5U, provided the price is not too crazy.

Assuming sunny days - the kickstarter path is successful - does that open the door for other 5U modules and conversions?

George

On Aug 19, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Paul Schreiber wrote:

Why not let Scott make the decision?

We have had several discussions about this already. He’s my panel vendor now, so the has ‘skin in the game’.

The way I would do it is:

a)      Make the prototype pc boards on my dime
b)      Make sure they work OK, the software may not be 100% but enough to test (like can read CVs from the A/D, etc)
c)       Post to Kickstarter
d)      See what happens

My SMT assembler is averaging 3 weeks to turn boards. That’s also about the time to run panels. So call it 4 weeks for all the parts to arrive (the 3rd item is the ribbon cable between the pot board and main board, my supplier is also 2-3 weeks there). The assembler has to wait for the pc boards to arrive, they average 18 days. So it would be ~ 8 weeks from end of funding goal (the goals run 30 days).

I can’t think of a better way for everyone to show support. If the new 5U modules are a “hit” then that is evidence to Scott the risk is minimal. If I put the projects up there and sell 14 modules then that’s probably the end of the line from me. Scott has 100% rights to so anything he wants to on his own. He has rights to the MOTM name and all the older modules. I am not preventing him from making 10 new designs, to hire other designers, etc.

I am just speaking for my involvement.

BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by eric

>>Yes, the MT and the CG would be the perfect first candidates. <<

I agree. If you're going to put this boat upright, you have to run modules that people have a good reason to want more than one of. The problem with the 730 (from my perspective) was that without a reset function there was no reason to own more than one.

The only problem with the MT is that 10 of us already have one... I'll buy a second (possibly a third if the feature set justifies it).

>>The new improved 101, with correct clock behavior (samples taken at the start of the clock pulse) might be a possibility.<<

I saw Paul said that this is the third, but I don't understand why. Thanks to Bridechamber, and this really is the Bridechamber format now, I have two other S&H modules that do this just fine.

eric

--- On Sun, 8/19/12, Stephen Drake <makeme1witheverything@...> wrote:

From: Stephen Drake <makeme1witheverything@...>
Subject: Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 12:48 PM

On Aug 19, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

>
>
> BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.
>
> Paul S.
>

Aha, something that maybe I can have some input on. Yes, the MT and the CG would be the perfect first candidates.

First the whole kickstarter idea is a pretty good one, although I'm not terribly happy with being held hostage with the "3 successful kickstarters if I'm going to continue with 5U" thing you stated. I'd prefer a 2 out of 3 option. Or maybe 3 out of 5? Lots of kickstarters don't achieve full funding - that's what they're all about, determining market interest. You could create a dozen of them, basically for next to nothing - you're not committed until full funding is achieved - and if only a handful actually stick, well, then you'll know what to do. Lets not forget about the 730 (are there any left? Send them to Scott!) - a bunch was invested in it despite not much up front interest, and when it didn't sell, well, there haven't been any new 5U modules - honest mistakes can be made.

The Morphing Terrarium should be Kickstarter Number One. It's a super monster killer module as is, and with a few improvements could possibly be the module that saves the MOTM 5U boat. Every MOTM system should have one! I have the euro version behind a 5U panel, and use it all the time - it's sound source number one for me. What it needs to make it perfect are dedicated vc control knobs for the morph cv inputs; the phase and glitch switches on the front panel, not jumpers; a better dac to clean up the aliasing at higher frequencies; and the range switch fixed so it's only 2 ranges, audio and LFO instead of the weird 3 ranges that don't really work right as it is currently. Everything else is fine as it is - it doesn't need a lcd, especially if that involves requiring the 6 pin power connector - if you really need a 5v line use a .25$ L7805. I've managed to fit all this neatly on a 2U panel, as has Dave Brown in a slightly different design, so this should be option Numero Uno.

The Cloud Generator should have it's time, finally. It's been in the planning stages for what, 10 years now? And it's also the best "supersaw" module that exists currently - sure, there are a bunch of addon modules that'll turn a regular vco into a supersaw, but this is the real deal, all in one module. And more! Again, it needs the dedicated cv level knobs for the various cv inputs. Otherwise this one is almost perfect as is - I don't have my e340 here currently (you do!) so can't remember if there was something about one of the knobs that has a funny range or something. Again, this one fits behind a 2U panel just fine - I have complementary panels for the e340-e350, so they look great next to each other.

The third kickstarter - I don't know. The uSeq might be nice, but I don't know if it'd achieve full funding. The new improved 101, with correct clock behavior (samples taken at the start of the clock pulse) might be a possibility. The e560-e580 are pretty obvious candidates - the 560, the frequency shifter/phaser would probably be the strongest candidate for kickstarter number 3 (I'm waiting for euro guts to build my own 5U versions so can't really speak to their usefulness yet).

So there you have it - my .02$. And worth every penny!

-Steve

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RE: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-19 by Paul Schreiber

Trust me: no you do not J

Paul S.

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eric
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 3:48 PM
To: MOTM List
Subject: Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

>>Yes, the MT and the CG would be the perfect first candidates. <<

I agree. If you're going to put this boat upright, you have to run modules that people have a good reason to want more than one of. The problem with the 730 (from my perspective) was that without a reset function there was no reason to own more than one.

The only problem with the MT is that 10 of us already have one... I'll buy a second (possibly a third if the feature set justifies it).

>>The new improved 101, with correct clock behavior (samples taken at the start of the clock pulse) might be a possibility.<<

I saw Paul said that this is the third, but I don't understand why. Thanks to Bridechamber, and this really is the Bridechamber format now, I have two other S&H modules that do this just fine.

eric

--- On Sun, 8/19/12, Stephen Drake <makeme1witheverything@...> wrote:

From: Stephen Drake <makeme1witheverything@...>
Subject: Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 12:48 PM

On Aug 19, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

>
>
> BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”, now is the time to say so.
>
> Paul S.
>

Aha, something that maybe I can have some input on. Yes, the MT and the CG would be the perfect first candidates.

First the whole kickstarter idea is a pretty good one, although I'm not terribly happy with being held hostage with the "3 successful kickstarters if I'm going to continue with 5U" thing you stated. I'd prefer a 2 out of 3 option. Or maybe 3 out of 5? Lots of kickstarters don't achieve full funding - that's what they're all about, determining market interest. You could create a dozen of them, basically for next to nothing - you're not committed until full funding is achieved - and if only a handful actually stick, well, then you'll know what to do. Lets not forget about the 730 (are there any left? Send them to Scott!) - a bunch was invested in it despite not much up front interest, and when it didn't sell, well, there haven't been any new 5U modules - honest mistakes can be made.

The Morphing Terrarium should be Kickstarter Number One. It's a super monster killer module as is, and with a few improvements could possibly be the module that saves the MOTM 5U boat. Every MOTM system should have one! I have the euro version behind a 5U panel, and use it all the time - it's sound source number one for me. What it needs to make it perfect are dedicated vc control knobs for the morph cv inputs; the phase and glitch switches on the front panel, not jumpers; a better dac to clean up the aliasing at higher frequencies; and the range switch fixed so it's only 2 ranges, audio and LFO instead of the weird 3 ranges that don't really work right as it is currently. Everything else is fine as it is - it doesn't need a lcd, especially if that involves requiring the 6 pin power connector - if you really need a 5v line use a .25$ L7805. I've managed to fit all this neatly on a 2U panel, as has Dave Brown in a slightly different design, so this should be option Numero Uno.

The Cloud Generator should have it's time, finally. It's been in the planning stages for what, 10 years now? And it's also the best "supersaw" module that exists currently - sure, there are a bunch of addon modules that'll turn a regular vco into a supersaw, but this is the real deal, all in one module. And more! Again, it needs the dedicated cv level knobs for the various cv inputs. Otherwise this one is almost perfect as is - I don't have my e340 here currently (you do!) so can't remember if there was something about one of the knobs that has a funny range or something. Again, this one fits behind a 2U panel just fine - I have complementary panels for the e340-e350, so they look great next to each other.

The third kickstarter - I don't know. The uSeq might be nice, but I don't know if it'd achieve full funding. The new improved 101, with correct clock behavior (samples taken at the start of the clock pulse) might be a possibility. The e560-e580 are pretty obvious candidates - the 560, the frequency shifter/phaser would probably be the strongest candidate for kickstarter number 3 (I'm waiting for euro guts to build my own 5U versions so can't really speak to their usefulness yet).

So there you have it - my .02$. And worth every penny!

-Steve

------------------------------------

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RE: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-20 by Kenneth Elhardt

Here's a modular additive synthesis module(s).

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun05/articles/asmodules.htm

The thing about additive synthesis is that it needs a proper user interface to be able to make it practical, kind of like what the Fairlight had. I myself don't see a lot of advantage to an additive synthesis VCO over simply running an additive synthesizer through your modular.

NOTE: Related, I have a Kawai K5000S additive synthesizer for sale at near new contition for $600.

-Elhardt

---------------------

I have to go back to look at the specs of
the Cloud Generator, but I’d really like it to be able to generate independent
sine waves to be used as an additive synthesis VCO. If I remember correctly,
the CG generates 8 waves? So 4 of these generating 8 waves each would roughly
equal the VCOs of a Synergy. I may be all wrong with my memory here.

Additive Synthesis is something that would
open up a whole new branch of sound design in the modular realm. As it is, I’m
using my Synergy and K5000S for this, but the flexibility of my modular would
make it really interesting.

-Greg

From:
motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Schreiber

Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012
10:14 AM

To: 'Jim Black'; 'MOTM'

Subject: [motm] Future 5U
@Bridechamber

Why not let
Scott make the decision?

We
have had several discussions about this already. He’s my panel vendor now, so
the has ‘skin in the game’.

The
way I would do it is:

a)      Make the prototype pc boards on my dime

b)      Make sure they work OK, the software may not be 100% but
enough to test (like can read CVs from the A/D, etc)

c)       Post to Kickstarter

d)      See what happens

My
SMT assembler is averaging 3 weeks to turn boards. That’s also about the time
to run panels. So call it 4 weeks for all the parts to arrive (the 3rd
item is the ribbon cable between the pot board and main board, my supplier is
also 2-3 weeks there). The assembler has to wait for the pc boards to arrive,
they average 18 days. So it would be ~ 8 weeks from end of funding goal (the
goals run 30 days).

I
can’t think of a better way for everyone to show support. If the new 5U modules
are a “hit” then that is evidence to Scott the risk is minimal. If I put the
projects up there and sell 14 modules then that’s probably the end of the line
from me. Scott has 100% rights to so anything he wants to on his own. He has
rights to the MOTM name and all the older modules. I am not preventing him from
making 10 new designs, to hire other designers, etc.

I
am just speaking for my involvement.

BTW:
If you think the CG and the MT are not good candidates for this and other
modules are more desired and you think they would have a better “success rate”,
now is the time to say so.

Paul
S.

480s (Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber)

2012-08-20 by J.D. McEachin

At 01:25 PM 8/19/2012, Ben Stuyts wrote:

>Paul, I'd support you on Kickstarter. Give it a go and see what
>happens. Just ship me the 480 kit before that, pretty please...

Mercury is always in retrograde with regard to the 480 kits, I'm
afraid. Don't be surprised if Paul starts hormone replacement
therapy and changes his name to Cynthia before they ship.

;)
Jeffrey

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-20 by J.D. McEachin

At 07:14 AM 8/19/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:

>BTW: If you think the CG and the MT are not good
>candidates for this and other modules are more
>desired and you think they would have a better
>âsuccess rateâ, now is the time to say so.

Depends on whether they're truly "super-duper"
versions or not. I've got all of the current
E-series modules already, so what's my motivation otherwise?

I'd rather buy an E370/MOTM-370 than another CG
or MT. As you wrote on Muff's: "It's a
combination of features from the E340 and the
E350 using a new class of ARM processor with
high-quality Cirrus Logic audio DACs. ... The
cost is less than 3 E340s or 3 E350s and you get 4."

Of course, the market for such a spendy module is
going to be smaller than for one that's 1/3 the
cost, so maybe it's not the best module to test Kickstarter out with.

Good luck with your decision!

Jeffrey

Re: 480s (Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber)

2012-08-20 by Ben Stuyts

On 20 Aug 2012, at 21:07, J.D. McEachin wrote:

> At 01:25 PM 8/19/2012, Ben Stuyts wrote:
>> Paul, I'd support you on Kickstarter. Give it a go and see what
>> happens. Just ship me the 480 kit before that, pretty please...
>
> Mercury is always in retrograde with regard to the 480 kits, I'm
> afraid. Don't be surprised if Paul starts hormone replacement
> therapy and changes his name to Cynthia before they ship.
>
> ;)
> Jeffrey

:-)

Re: [motm] Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-20 by David Moylan

On 8/20/12 1:04 PM, J.D. McEachin wrote:

> At 07:14 AM 8/19/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:

> I'd rather buy an E370/MOTM-370 than another CG
> or MT. As you wrote on Muff's: "It's a
> combination of features from the E340 and the
> E350 using a new class of ARM processor with
> high-quality Cirrus Logic audio DACs. ... The
> cost is less than 3 E340s or 3 E350s and you get 4."
>
> Of course, the market for such a spendy module is
> going to be smaller than for one that's 1/3 the
> cost, so maybe it's not the best module to test Kickstarter out with.
>
> Good luck with your decision!
>

I talked to a retailer about selling a product I'm working on. He
encouraged me to do everything I could to keep the price at $299 or
below. He said $300 is the psychological barrier for customers
(averaged, of course) between "why not?" and "major investment".

In the 5U MOTM world the priorities don't necessarily match the average
from the manufacturer or customer side. I'm just tossing it out as a
factoid.

Dave

Re: Future 5U @Bridechamber

2012-08-21 by Scott

What the hell? I give my computer a break for a couple days and... Zoinks!

About to go to bed, so I can't address all the great points and do all the shout-outs and thanks that I want, but as to the demise of 5U... No.
I just made quite an investment in this format, and I'm looking to expand it. I've sold 50 Lopass Gates EASILY in 5U, so why not 50 MTs? We could start w/ that or the CG, or split the first run between them -- whatever's ready to go. We could do Kickstarter, or I would go to the bank and take out a loan.

I'm sure I missed it, but what's the minimum board order, Paul? And it's splittable between designs?

I think we should do it, and do it fast. Whatever 1-3 designs can be rolled out the fastest, let's do it.

Thanks to everyone for the great discussion!
Scott Deyo
contact@...
The Bridechamber
www.bridechamber.com
Jealous Edison Record Kompany
www.jealousedison.com

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, David Moylan <dave@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/20/12 1:04 PM, J.D. McEachin wrote:
> > At 07:14 AM 8/19/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>
> > I'd rather buy an E370/MOTM-370 than another CG
> > or MT. As you wrote on Muff's: "It's a
> > combination of features from the E340 and the
> > E350 using a new class of ARM processor with
> > high-quality Cirrus Logic audio DACs. ... The
> > cost is less than 3 E340s or 3 E350s and you get 4."
> >
> > Of course, the market for such a spendy module is
> > going to be smaller than for one that's 1/3 the
> > cost, so maybe it's not the best module to test Kickstarter out with.
> >
> > Good luck with your decision!
> >
> I talked to a retailer about selling a product I'm working on. He
> encouraged me to do everything I could to keep the price at $299 or
> below. He said $300 is the psychological barrier for customers
> (averaged, of course) between "why not?" and "major investment".
>
> In the 5U MOTM world the priorities don't necessarily match the average
> from the manufacturer or customer side. I'm just tossing it out as a
> factoid.
>
> Dave
>