Yahoo Groups archive

MOTM

Index last updated: 2026-04-03 22:10 UTC

Thread

Multiple Personalities

Multiple Personalities

2000-01-26 by Tkacs, Ken

If the problem with the normalized quad idea is that one might forget that
the "key" jack is a normal and accidentally cut it off, a front panel
graphic could help make that more clear. Even if it had solid lines
connecting the first jack of each quad and then a dashed line from an upper
quad to the normalized jack. 

If I get a second here I'll draw something up.

One could also do two vertical rows of say 6 jacks each and ditch the
normalization, but you lose some flexibility.

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-26 by Nathan Alan Hunsicker

How about having a normaling switch installed on the front panel to "link"
2 or more multiples together. I still like the 2U wide panel though, This
way it is easier to see, at a glance which patch cords are patched together
( i.e they're in a straight line) vs having to count down in multiples of
2. Also one could easily turn 2 rows of 4 jacks into 6 connected jacks by
patching row 1 and 2 together -Nate
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From:
>"Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>
>
>If the problem with the normalized quad idea is that one might forget that
>
>the "key" jack is a normal and accidentally cut it off, a front panel
>
>graphic could help make that more clear. Even if it had solid lines
>
>connecting the first jack of each quad and then a dashed line from an upper
>
>quad to the normalized jack.
>
>
>
>If I get a second here I'll draw something up.
>
>
>
>One could also do two vertical rows of say 6 jacks each and ditch the
>
>normalization, but you lose some flexibility.
>
>
>  <http://adforce.imgis.com/?adlink|2.0|2|82045|1|1|misc=3250;loc=300;>
>Please click above to support our sponsor
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-26 by Dave Bradley

Since we're beating on this so much today, and there seems to be a lot of
new folks on the list - I should mention again that several of us have
decided to abandon MOTM format 1 or 2U mult panels entirely and use "Larry's
Magic Bus" instead.

Dave
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
> If the problem with the normalized quad idea is that one might forget that
> the "key" jack is a normal and accidentally cut it off, a front panel
> graphic could help make that more clear. Even if it had solid lines
> connecting the first jack of each quad and then a dashed line
> from an upper
> quad to the normalized jack.
>
> If I get a second here I'll draw something up.
>
> One could also do two vertical rows of say 6 jacks each and ditch the
> normalization, but you lose some flexibility.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> $20 OFF PURCHASES FOR YOUR PET AT PETOPIA.COM!
> The Internet Pet Paradise has everything you need to keep your pet happy
> & healthy!  Shop now to receive $20 off purchases of $30 or more!
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Petopia105 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-26 by Nathan Alan Hunsicker

For those of us who are unaware (me included) what is "Larry's Magic Bus?"
I've heard it mentioned before, but never asked, I tried searching the
archives, but it came up with every archive since #6 and the few i checked
had nothing to do with this subject. -Nate
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From:
>"Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
>
>
>Since we're beating on this so much today, and there seems to be a lot of
>
>new folks on the list - I should mention again that several of us have
>
>decided to abandon MOTM format 1 or 2U mult panels entirely and use "Larry's
>
>Magic Bus" instead.
>
>
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> If the problem with the normalized quad idea is that one might forget that
>
>> the "key" jack is a normal and accidentally cut it off, a front panel
>
>> graphic could help make that more clear. Even if it had solid lines
>
>> connecting the first jack of each quad and then a dashed line
>
>> from an upper
>
>> quad to the normalized jack.
>
>>
>
>> If I get a second here I'll draw something up.
>
>>
>
>> One could also do two vertical rows of say 6 jacks each and ditch the
>
>> normalization, but you lose some flexibility.
>
>>
>
>> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>>
>
>> $20 OFF PURCHASES FOR YOUR PET AT PETOPIA.COM!
>
>> The Internet Pet Paradise has everything you need to keep your pet happy
>
>> & healthy!  Shop now to receive $20 off purchases of $30 or more!
>
>> <a href="
>><http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Petopia105>http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Petopia1
>>05 ">Click Here</a>
>
>>
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>  <http://adforce.imgis.com/?adlink|2.0|2|82045|1|1|misc=3252;loc=300;>
>Please click above to support our sponsor
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-26 by Dave Bradley

I'll let Larry answer since he thought it up, and I've blabbed too much
today already.

Dave
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>
>
> For those of us who are unaware (me included) what is "Larry's Magic Bus?"
> I've heard it mentioned before, but never asked, I tried searching the
> archives, but it came up with every archive since #6 and the few i checked
> had nothing to do with this subject. -Nate
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Tentochi

I made a patch last Saturday evening that would be perfect to listen to
while riding the Magic Bus!

--Shemp
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. Larry Hendry [mailto:jlarryh@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:00 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Multiple Personalities
>
>
> From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>
> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>
>
> For those of us who are unaware (me included) what is
> "Larry's Magic Bus?" I've heard it mentioned before, but
> never asked, I tried searching the archives, but it came
> up with every archive since #6 and the few i checked
> had nothing to do with this subject. -Nate
> -----------------
> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
>
> I'll let Larry answer since he thought it up, and I've blabbed
> too much today already.
>
> ----------------
> Oh sure Dave ! Open a can of worms and then leave me to eat the damn
> things.<snicker>
>
> Nathan,
> 	Some of us on the list have decided that we want to build
> wooden cases for
> our MOTM modulars to give them that classic vintage synth look (how's that
> for avoiding the "M" word boys).  The idea is that it would be nice if the
> cables that connected modules could be organized in a fashion that made
> that huge patch, neat, easily repeatable, and easy to get to all the knobs
> and controls.
>
> 	Paul was kind enough to place all the jacks along the
> bottom of the MOTM
> modules.  So, the idea came about that a cool multiple would be horizontal
> instead of vertical.  First, think about a 1U blank panel below
> your row of
> MOTM modules.  The jack spacing is exactly equal to MOTM modules, so the
> multiple row looks almost like an extension of jacks at the bottom of the
> modules.  And, the cables are very short.  You could of course have a row
> like this below each row of MOTM with some connections in between
> the mults
> (behind the rack).  So if you wanted to connect a modules on the
> top row to
> one on the bottom row, two short cables would be used to the
> mults directly
> below and nothing is draped all across the panel in your way of knob
> tweaking.
>
> 	Now, it does not take a genius to figure out the problem
> with this.  One
> 1U panel like this would have 40 1/4 phone jacks in a 19" rack space or 96
> in the 24 Unit wide wood case that I am planning.  That is simply more
> jacks than needed AND a waste of good panel space.  So, I decided if that
> could be cut in half, the number of jacks would be just about
> right.  So, I
> have found a nice piece of aluminum that is exactly 1/2 rack
> space tall and
> comes in 4 and 8 foot lengths available at any hardware store.
> It is three
> sided, so it is super strong and will not flex from jack pluggin'
> and such.
>  It is not that neat for a rack, because then every other row of your MOTM
> is offset 1/2 space.  However, for the case builders, it provides 48 jacks
> across a 24 unit, one jack directly below each jack in the MOTM modules
> above.  So, a 48 unit MOTM wood case could that classic looking two rows
> high, but actually 11 rack spaces. 1/2 extra rack space below each MOTM
> row.
>
> 	I have two magic busses cut and drilled for my wood cabinet
> (which is on
> hold for now).  All I have to do is locate a good paint shop to get the
> same finish Paul uses.  We know what the paint is (Paul told us).  Now,
> once you have all these jacks, you have more possibilities of multiples
> that one can imagine.  Mine will not be grouped but distributed.  For
> example, those 48 jacks could be 8 different 6-unit mults.  They could be
> distributed across the strip 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
> 8, etc... with all the 1s being connected together, 2s together,
> etc.  So,
> if you connect modules on the same row together, you can just jump down to
> the magic bus, again with short cables that are not stretched across the
> panels.  I have replaced the metal washers with colored washers
> so that the
> colored washers indicate how the mults are connected.  If you decode to
> change the grouping down the road, it is easy to change the ID on the
> front.  Just change washers.  Now colored washers, THAT is a whole
> different thread.
>
> Now let your mind wander a little further, and start thinking
> about how you
> might normalize some of these things for distributed CVs, gates, triggers
> and you realize that every module would be within short distance of the
> connections it needed.  The possibilities are endless.  John Barlow and I
> have discussed at LEAST 1/2 million combinations using toggles, rotary
> switches, and even push button hex coded dial thingies.  Just let
> your mind
> wander.
>
> Enjoy.
> Larry
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> $20 OFF PURCHASES FOR YOUR PET AT PETOPIA.COM!
> The Internet Pet Paradise has everything you need to keep your pet happy
> & healthy!  Shop now to receive $20 off purchases of $30 or more!
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Petopia116 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by J. Larry Hendry

From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>

For those of us who are unaware (me included) what is
"Larry's Magic Bus?" I've heard it mentioned before, but
never asked, I tried searching the archives, but it came
up with every archive since #6 and the few i checked
had nothing to do with this subject. -Nate
-----------------
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>

I'll let Larry answer since he thought it up, and I've blabbed
too much today already.

----------------
Oh sure Dave ! Open a can of worms and then leave me to eat the damn
things.<snicker>

Nathan, 
	Some of us on the list have decided that we want to build wooden cases for
our MOTM modulars to give them that classic vintage synth look (how's that
for avoiding the "M" word boys).  The idea is that it would be nice if the
cables that connected modules could be organized in a fashion that made
that huge patch, neat, easily repeatable, and easy to get to all the knobs
and controls.

	Paul was kind enough to place all the jacks along the bottom of the MOTM
modules.  So, the idea came about that a cool multiple would be horizontal
instead of vertical.  First, think about a 1U blank panel below your row of
MOTM modules.  The jack spacing is exactly equal to MOTM modules, so the
multiple row looks almost like an extension of jacks at the bottom of the
modules.  And, the cables are very short.  You could of course have a row
like this below each row of MOTM with some connections in between the mults
(behind the rack).  So if you wanted to connect a modules on the top row to
one on the bottom row, two short cables would be used to the mults directly
below and nothing is draped all across the panel in your way of knob
tweaking.

	Now, it does not take a genius to figure out the problem with this.  One
1U panel like this would have 40 1/4 phone jacks in a 19" rack space or 96
in the 24 Unit wide wood case that I am planning.  That is simply more
jacks than needed AND a waste of good panel space.  So, I decided if that
could be cut in half, the number of jacks would be just about right.  So, I
have found a nice piece of aluminum that is exactly 1/2 rack space tall and
comes in 4 and 8 foot lengths available at any hardware store.  It is three
sided, so it is super strong and will not flex from jack pluggin' and such.
 It is not that neat for a rack, because then every other row of your MOTM
is offset 1/2 space.  However, for the case builders, it provides 48 jacks
across a 24 unit, one jack directly below each jack in the MOTM modules
above.  So, a 48 unit MOTM wood case could that classic looking two rows
high, but actually 11 rack spaces. 1/2 extra rack space below each MOTM
row.  

	I have two magic busses cut and drilled for my wood cabinet (which is on
hold for now).  All I have to do is locate a good paint shop to get the
same finish Paul uses.  We know what the paint is (Paul told us).  Now,
once you have all these jacks, you have more possibilities of multiples
that one can imagine.  Mine will not be grouped but distributed.  For
example, those 48 jacks could be 8 different 6-unit mults.  They could be
distributed across the strip 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
8, etc... with all the 1s being connected together, 2s together,  etc.  So,
if you connect modules on the same row together, you can just jump down to
the magic bus, again with short cables that are not stretched across the
panels.  I have replaced the metal washers with colored washers so that the
colored washers indicate how the mults are connected.  If you decode to
change the grouping down the road, it is easy to change the ID on the
front.  Just change washers.  Now colored washers, THAT is a whole
different thread.

Now let your mind wander a little further, and start thinking about how you
might normalize some of these things for distributed CVs, gates, triggers
and you realize that every module would be within short distance of the
connections it needed.  The possibilities are endless.  John Barlow and I
have discussed at LEAST 1/2 million combinations using toggles, rotary
switches, and even push button hex coded dial thingies.  Just let your mind
wander.

Enjoy.
Larry

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by JWBarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 1/26/2000 4:58:25 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>The possibilities are endless.  John Barlow and I
>have discussed at LEAST 1/2 million combinations using toggles, rotary
>switches, and even push button hex coded dial thingies.  Just let your
>mind
>wander.

But don't let Larry's mind wander anymore, unless you want ten five page 
e-mails from Larry per day! 

But the idea is actually quite good, especially when used in conjunction with 
a few 1U or 2U (MOTM) multiple panels scattered around a large system. I 
remember being completely opposed to the initial idea, until I started seeing 
it as more of a buss than a multiple. It completely turned me around.

I also agree with the idea of having some small 1U multiples scattered 
around, but would like to point out that large EMu modulars tended to have 
one or two multiple modules with (maybe) 8 rows of four -- but again, Larry's 
Magic Bus idea is the ultimate concept in multiples being designed to reduce 
big cable tangles between you and your instrument.

Finally, I usually agree with statements about patching flexibility, but I 
think some normalization (user designed) can be quite reasonable. I've found 
that I often use the normalized connections on my ARP because they make 
sense, not because I'm lazy. Although I keep my ARP because I'm lazy instead 
of selling it.

JB
OT: I heard (historian) Jon Wiener interviewed yesterday on NPR's Fresh Aire. 
He has a new book about the declassified FBI file on John Lennon. Lennon 
believed his phone to be tapped in the early 70's, so if he had to make a 
secure call he'd go next door ...... to John Cage's place to use the phone. 
Boy, think of the neighborhood watch meetings!

Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Nathan Alan Hunsicker

Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this mailing list, I tried
to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the sugestions from
yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM modules and enjoy that
jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new module(s) being planned
having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed the power
distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I am not trying to
tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much free time at work
and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let me know what you
think -Nate


[This message contained attachments]

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

This looks WONDERFUL!  I love it.  I have a (some) mechanical question(s)
reguarding the switch...  would it take a triple-pole single-throw switch,
since the jacks have 3 lugs?  Is the MOTM design taking advantage of the
balanced cables?  Could you hardwire together the grounding lug for all
jacks, which would mean you'd only need a DPDT switch?

--PBr
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Nathan Alan Hunsicker [SMTP:nate@...]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 11:02 AM
> To:	motm@onelist.com
> Subject:	[motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this mailing list, I
> tried
> to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the sugestions from
> yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM modules and enjoy that
> jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new module(s) being planned
> having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed the power
> distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I am not trying to
> tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much free time at work
> and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let me know what you
> think -Nate
>

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Paul Schreiber

You only need a SPST switch, because the grounds are tied and
the 4 jacks within a set are tied. Only need 1 wire between sets.

It remains to be seen if such a tiny toggle switch is practical. Maybe a
sub-miniture slide switch?

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) <PaulBr@...>
To: <motm@onelist.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities


> From: "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <PaulBr@...>
>
> This looks WONDERFUL!  I love it.  I have a (some) mechanical question(s)
> reguarding the switch...  would it take a triple-pole single-throw switch,
> since the jacks have 3 lugs?  Is the MOTM design taking advantage of the
> balanced cables?  Could you hardwire together the grounding lug for all
> jacks, which would mean you'd only need a DPDT switch?
>
> --PBr
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker [SMTP:nate@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 11:02 AM
> > To: motm@onelist.com
> > Subject: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> >
> > Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this mailing list, I
> > tried
> > to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the sugestions
from
> > yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM modules and enjoy
that
> > jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new module(s) being planned
> > having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed the power
> > distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I am not trying
to
> > tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much free time at
work
> > and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let me know what
you
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > think -Nate
> >
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you
> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Dave Bradley

Hey, the original post from Nate with the attachment never showed up in my
mail, so I can't see what everybody's talking about. Can somebody resend it
to me directly?

Thanks!!

Dave
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> You only need a SPST switch, because the grounds are tied and
> the 4 jacks within a set are tied. Only need 1 wire between sets.
>
> It remains to be seen if such a tiny toggle switch is practical. Maybe a
> sub-miniture slide switch?
>
> Paul S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) <PaulBr@...>
> To: <motm@onelist.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:14 PM
> Subject: RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities
>
>
> > From: "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <PaulBr@...>
> >
> > This looks WONDERFUL!  I love it.  I have a (some) mechanical
> question(s)
> > reguarding the switch...  would it take a triple-pole
> single-throw switch,
> > since the jacks have 3 lugs?  Is the MOTM design taking advantage of the
> > balanced cables?  Could you hardwire together the grounding lug for all
> > jacks, which would mean you'd only need a DPDT switch?
> >
> > --PBr
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker [SMTP:nate@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 11:02 AM
> > > To: motm@onelist.com
> > > Subject: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> > >
> > > Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this mailing list, I
> > > tried
> > > to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the sugestions
> from
> > > yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM modules and enjoy
> that
> > > jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new module(s)
> being planned
> > > having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed the power
> > > distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I am not trying
> to
> > > tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much free time at
> work
> > > and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let me know what
> you
> > > think -Nate
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> > Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> > GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you
> > need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> > <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance
> ">Click Here</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you
> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Tkacs, Ken

Will the switches really fit there?

Do people really hate the switches that are built into the Switchcraft jacks
by default that much...?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Nathan Alan Hunsicker [mailto:nate@...]
		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:02 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	[motm] Multiple Personalities

		 << File: newpatch1U.pdf >> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker
<nate@...>

		Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this
mailing list, I tried
		to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the
sugestions from
		yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM modules
and enjoy that
		jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new module(s)
being planned
		having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed
the power
		distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I am
not trying to
		tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much free
time at work
		and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let me
know what you
		think -Nate

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Crawley, Eric

I agree this is a nice set of mults and I would probably get a few along
with another 940 (for connecting to those pesky things that don't use 1/4").
\

Paul: Can we see this one added to the list please?

	Eric
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:20 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> 
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> You only need a SPST switch, because the grounds are tied and
> the 4 jacks within a set are tied. Only need 1 wire between sets.
> 
> It remains to be seen if such a tiny toggle switch is 
> practical. Maybe a
> sub-miniture slide switch?
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) <PaulBr@...>
> To: <motm@onelist.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:14 PM
> Subject: RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> 
> > From: "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <PaulBr@...>
> >
> > This looks WONDERFUL!  I love it.  I have a (some) 
> mechanical question(s)
> > reguarding the switch...  would it take a triple-pole 
> single-throw switch,
> > since the jacks have 3 lugs?  Is the MOTM design taking 
> advantage of the
> > balanced cables?  Could you hardwire together the grounding 
> lug for all
> > jacks, which would mean you'd only need a DPDT switch?
> >
> > --PBr
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker [SMTP:nate@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 11:02 AM
> > > To: motm@onelist.com
> > > Subject: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> > >
> > > Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this 
> mailing list, I
> > > tried
> > > to come up with an ideal patch panel design using all the 
> sugestions
> from
> > > yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our MOTM 
> modules and enjoy
> that
> > > jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the new 
> module(s) being planned
> > > having power distrobution boards attached, I have removed 
> the power
> > > distribution board from this idea. Once again I stress I 
> am not trying
> to
> > > tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have too much 
> free time at
> work
> > > and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of modules. Let 
> me know what
> you
> > > think -Nate
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor 
> ----------------------------
> >
> > Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> > GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you
> > need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> > <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance 
> ">Click Here</a>
> >
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor 
> ----------------------------
> 
> Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you 
> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance 
> ">Click Here</a>
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Crawley, Eric

I like the switches because I can visually see what is going on.  Normalized
jacks are for patch panels and inserts.  I would find it confusing to
remember that I should plug something into a specific jack to keep it
connected to the upper mult...

	Eric
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:Ken.Tkacs@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:50 PM
> To: 'motm@onelist.com'
> Subject: RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> 
> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
> 
> 
> Will the switches really fit there?
> 
> Do people really hate the switches that are built into the 
> Switchcraft jacks
> by default that much...?
> 
> 
> 
> 		-----Original Message-----
> 		From:	Nathan Alan Hunsicker 
> [mailto:nate@...]
> 		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:02 PM
> 		To:	motm@onelist.com
> 		Subject:	[motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> 		 << File: newpatch1U.pdf >> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker
> <nate@...>
> 
> 		Based on all the opinions expressed yesterday on this
> mailing list, I tried
> 		to come up with an ideal patch panel design 
> using all the
> sugestions from
> 		yesterday. For those of us who rack mount our 
> MOTM modules
> and enjoy that
> 		jungle of wires look. Due to the some of the 
> new module(s)
> being planned
> 		having power distrobution boards attached, I 
> have removed
> the power
> 		distribution board from this idea. Once again I 
> stress I am
> not trying to
> 		tell anyone how to do their job, I simply have 
> too much free
> time at work
> 		and enjoy making these little "mock ups" of 
> modules. Let me
> know what you
> 		think -Nate
> 
> 		
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor 
> ----------------------------
> 
> Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you 
> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance 
> ">Click Here</a>
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Tkacs, Ken

Even with the dotted line there it's confusing

 It's just the opposite of what you stated---you would NOT plug something in
there in order to maintain a connection to the upper mult. You plug into the
key jack to break the connection and take priority over the panel from that
point downward.

[Don't worry-I'm not taking this personally. But my degree was in Industrial
Design (ages ago) so I find these 'human factors' discussions interesting.]

For me personally, it's easier to glance at the jack and see that nothing is
in the cutoff position rather than to squint at a switch (maybe 'squinting'
is overstating it, but you know what I mean).

Using the normally-closed lugs of the jacks just seems more elegant to me,
and less cramped. I dunno... it seems natural to me---since my earliest days
of playing with my MS-10, the idea of a plug cutting a normal has always
been pretty straightforward, especially if there's a front panel graphic
showing that realtionship. Certainly on a modular you don't want to go too
crazy with normalization, but in the case of a multiple, it's a little
self-contained utility module, not a VCO-VCF-VCA normalization scheme.

Some of the old Moog modules used similar normalization--the triple
attenuator panel for instance. You would plug something into the INPUT, and
then you could pull three (was it four?) outputs, each with its own
attenuator. But if you plugged in a second input anywhere along that chain,
the normalization was broken with the prior gang-point and the two split
sections acted independently. Very elegant. And not confusing at all once
one gets used to it (anyone using a patchbay in their studio would already
be used to this kind of thinking.

Of course, if one *were* to go with the switches, more room could be made by
eliminating one of the quads, leaving three and two switches. That conforms
to the existing MOTM "graphic layout grid" more closely.

Interesting discussion.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Crawley, Eric [mailto:esc@...]
		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:00 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities

		From: "Crawley, Eric" <esc@...>

		I like the switches because I can visually see what is going
on.  Normalized
		jacks are for patch panels and inserts.  I would find it
confusing to
		remember that I should plug something into a specific jack
to keep it
		connected to the upper mult...

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Tkacs, Ken

Yes, I see what you mean. Differing starting assumptions-to me, I would view
the module as one big multiple that can easily be 'broken' into splits by
jacking into lower points on it. To me, it wouldn't be confusing because you
would be adding that second input consciously.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Crawley, Eric [mailto:esc@...]
		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:58 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities

		From: "Crawley, Eric" <esc@...>

		Yes, I should read what I type.  I had the "sense" of the
normalled
		connection backwards in my message, sorry.  I have no
problem working with
		normalized plugs in a normal signal flow, as in the case of
an ARP 2600 or
		other devices where I know I'm breaking just a single signal
flow.  In a
		multiple panel, it just seems really akward to me.

		From a human factors POV, I think the difference here is how
we view a set
		of multiples.  I view them as multiple sets so I would leave
a switch, if
		one existed, in the "off" position by default.  Whereas a
normalled
		connection assumes the switch is "on", connecting the
muiltiple mults
		together.  So, the default is different.  Does that make
sense?

		I certainly can live with the normalized jack, if push came
to shove (or is
		that slap to eye poke?) but I would find the switches more
intuitive to my
		work mode....Just another subjective opinion.

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Paul Schreiber

I think for a 1U, 3 sets of mults with 2 switches is easier to manage.

Paul S.

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Crawley, Eric

Yes, I should read what I type.  I had the "sense" of the normalled
connection backwards in my message, sorry.  I have no problem working with
normalized plugs in a normal signal flow, as in the case of an ARP 2600 or
other devices where I know I'm breaking just a single signal flow.  In a
multiple panel, it just seems really akward to me.

From a human factors POV, I think the difference here is how we view a set
of multiples.  I view them as multiple sets so I would leave a switch, if
one existed, in the "off" position by default.  Whereas a normalled
connection assumes the switch is "on", connecting the muiltiple mults
together.  So, the default is different.  Does that make sense?

I certainly can live with the normalized jack, if push came to shove (or is
that slap to eye poke?) but I would find the switches more intuitive to my
work mode....Just another subjective opinion.

	Eric

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:Ken.Tkacs@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:41 PM
> To: 'motm@onelist.com'
> Subject: RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> 
> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
> 
> 
> Even with the dotted line there it's confusing
> 
>  It's just the opposite of what you stated---you would NOT 
> plug something in
> there in order to maintain a connection to the upper mult. 
> You plug into the
> key jack to break the connection and take priority over the 
> panel from that
> point downward.
> 
> [Don't worry-I'm not taking this personally. But my degree 
> was in Industrial
> Design (ages ago) so I find these 'human factors' discussions 
> interesting.]
> 
> For me personally, it's easier to glance at the jack and see 
> that nothing is
> in the cutoff position rather than to squint at a switch 
> (maybe 'squinting'
> is overstating it, but you know what I mean).
> 
> Using the normally-closed lugs of the jacks just seems more 
> elegant to me,
> and less cramped. I dunno... it seems natural to me---since 
> my earliest days
> of playing with my MS-10, the idea of a plug cutting a normal 
> has always
> been pretty straightforward, especially if there's a front 
> panel graphic
> showing that realtionship. Certainly on a modular you don't 
> want to go too
> crazy with normalization, but in the case of a multiple, it's a little
> self-contained utility module, not a VCO-VCF-VCA normalization scheme.
> 
> Some of the old Moog modules used similar normalization--the triple
> attenuator panel for instance. You would plug something into 
> the INPUT, and
> then you could pull three (was it four?) outputs, each with its own
> attenuator. But if you plugged in a second input anywhere 
> along that chain,
> the normalization was broken with the prior gang-point and 
> the two split
> sections acted independently. Very elegant. And not confusing 
> at all once
> one gets used to it (anyone using a patchbay in their studio 
> would already
> be used to this kind of thinking.
> 
> Of course, if one *were* to go with the switches, more room 
> could be made by
> eliminating one of the quads, leaving three and two switches. 
> That conforms
> to the existing MOTM "graphic layout grid" more closely.
> 
> Interesting discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 		-----Original Message-----
> 		From:	Crawley, Eric 
[mailto:esc@...]
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:00 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	RE: [motm] Multiple Personalities

		From: "Crawley, Eric" <esc@...>

		I like the switches because I can visually see what is going
on.  Normalized
		jacks are for patch panels and inserts.  I would find it
confusing to
		remember that I should plug something into a specific jack
to keep it
		connected to the upper mult...

		

--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you 
need - quick, easy, and FREE click
<a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance ">Click Here</a>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Tkacs, Ken

That's an interesting idea. I know what you're talking about-I've
experienced that on devices that use normally-closed STEREO jacks. I don't
know if some may find that extra confusing or not, but it does prevent the
loss-of-use of the 'key' jack when cascading multiple blocks.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Christopher Jeris [mailto:cjeris@...]
		Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 4:50 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	Re: [motm] Multiple Personalities



		Could the normalled one be built so that, if you stick a
plug into the
		"input" jack of a cluster but only one click, it's still
normalled to the
		cluster above it?  This would let you use all 7 outputs
instead of six,
		and then when you push the plug in all the way it breaks the
normalling
		connection and the clusters detach.  I have a Mackie mixer
whose effects
		sends and mic preamps work this way.

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Christopher Jeris

Ok, the normalled one #4 is pretty neat, I hadn't thought about having to
stick one's fingers past the plug ferrules to flip a little switch.

Could the normalled one be built so that, if you stick a plug into the
"input" jack of a cluster but only one click, it's still normalled to the
cluster above it?  This would let you use all 7 outputs instead of six,
and then when you push the plug in all the way it breaks the normalling
connection and the clusters detach.  I have a Mackie mixer whose effects
sends and mic preamps work this way.

peace,
Chris Jeris

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Crawley, Eric

Boy, you do like LEDs Larry!  I think that's a bit of overkill, especially
on a panel that doesn't need power for normal operation.  I really like the
idea of using the switches to manually for sound manipulation!  While I'm
into opinion mode, I would strongly vote against the "halfway" plug idea.  I
know it works for Mackie mixers but for vertically mounted panels, it
becomes very unstable, especially the way I get caught in the patch cords!
Besides, when your MOTM gets so big that you need to angle the top panel
downward just you can reach the modules, the halfway plugs would fall out
easily!

	Eric

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Nathan Hunsicker

Does anyone have a photo of the back of a MOTM-940 module? i am
wondering exactly how much space there is between all these jacks. If
you do, could you please send it to this list? Thanks -Nate


[This message contained attachments]

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

As much as I rather like LEDs, I'll have to poo-poo this idea too.  Sorry!
My concerns are... 
1) Keeping straight whether a lit-up LED meant normallized or not would
leave me scratching me poor head.  OTOH, I would likely remember it well
enough before long.
2) I don't quite understand the reason for it if you can tell whether a 4x4
is normallized by lack of jack in the upper-left.
Perhaps you can explain further and I'll see the LED, er, light!  :)

In the meanwhile, I would have to say that either 3 or 4 multiples with a
switch between seems like the best idea to me.  The number of multiples
would depend on having enough space to easily flip the switch.

--PBr
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	J. Larry Hendry [SMTP:jlarryh@...]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:46 PM
> To:	motm@onelist.com
> Subject:	Re: [motm] Multiple Personalities
> 
> I can see that  BUT, you would need to use the stereo 1/4 switchcraft jack
> to do it right.  Ken made a good point about squeezing ones fingers
> in-between 1/4 plugs to get the switch.  OTOH, I might suggest that the
> switch could be placed where you want it before inserting jacks.
> 
> BTW, this has been a VERY interesting thread and I am glad to see so MANY
> people participating.  No one person can think of such a variety of ideas
> as we all get stuck inside our own thinking boxes.  This is GREAT.  I am
> enjoying it.  Now, I am going to run ONE more silly idea at you guys who
> would like some visual evidence concerning "normal" connections of one
> multiple to another.  What if you used the original idea of 4 X 4.  Remove
> the 3 switches, and insert 3 LEDs.  A line could be drawn directly up and
> down through the LED connecting the BOX above and below.  With no jacks
> inserted, all LEDs would be lit.  When you hit the magic circuit breaking
> jack, out goes the LED.  Seems easy to do if the magic jack is stereo, and
> the switching on the ring position is grounded on one side and used to
> provide the ground connection to the LED.
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Dave Bradley

I'll take one when I get home. I also have some of those miniature switches
laying around, and I can see if one fits between the jacks.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Hunsicker [mailto:nate@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:00 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Multiple Personalities
>
>
> From: Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
>
> Does anyone have a photo of the back of a MOTM-940 module? i am
> wondering exactly how much space there is between all these jacks. If
> you do, could you please send it to this list? Thanks -Nate
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage?
> GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you
> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/GetSmartRefinance ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by Dave Bradley

BWAA HAHA HAHA!!

I don't EVER again want to get any grief from Paul over suggesting
gratuitous use of LEDs in modules. Larry, you are the new champion!

Dave "Gimme an LED" Bradley
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>

> Now, I am going to run ONE more silly idea at you guys who
> would like some visual evidence concerning "normal" connections of one
> multiple to another.  What if you used the original idea of 4 X 4.  Remove
> the 3 switches, and insert 3 LEDs.  A line could be drawn directly up and
> down through the LED connecting the BOX above and below.  With no jacks
> inserted, all LEDs would be lit.  When you hit the magic circuit breaking
> jack, out goes the LED.  Seems easy to do if the magic jack is stereo, and
> the switching on the ring position is grounded on one side and used to
> provide the ground connection to the LED.
>
> Larry (the stooge that likes LEDs) Hendry
>

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-27 by J. Larry Hendry

I can see that  BUT, you would need to use the stereo 1/4 switchcraft jack
to do it right.  Ken made a good point about squeezing ones fingers
in-between 1/4 plugs to get the switch.  OTOH, I might suggest that the
switch could be placed where you want it before inserting jacks.

BTW, this has been a VERY interesting thread and I am glad to see so MANY
people participating.  No one person can think of such a variety of ideas
as we all get stuck inside our own thinking boxes.  This is GREAT.  I am
enjoying it.  Now, I am going to run ONE more silly idea at you guys who
would like some visual evidence concerning "normal" connections of one
multiple to another.  What if you used the original idea of 4 X 4.  Remove
the 3 switches, and insert 3 LEDs.  A line could be drawn directly up and
down through the LED connecting the BOX above and below.  With no jacks
inserted, all LEDs would be lit.  When you hit the magic circuit breaking
jack, out goes the LED.  Seems easy to do if the magic jack is stereo, and
the switching on the ring position is grounded on one side and used to
provide the ground connection to the LED.

Larry (the stooge that likes LEDs) Hendry


> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
> That's an interesting idea. I know what you're talking about-I've
> experienced that on devices that use normally-closed STEREO jacks. I
don't
> know if some may find that extra confusing or not, but it does prevent
the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> loss-of-use of the 'key' jack when cascading multiple blocks.

>From:	Christopher Jeris [mailto:cjeris@...]
>Could the normalled one be built so that, if you stick a
>plug into the
>"input" jack of a cluster but only one click, it's still
> normalled to the
>cluster above it?  This would let you use all 7 outputs
> instead of six,
>and then when you push the plug in all the way it breaks the
> normalling
>connection and the clusters detach.  I have a Mackie mixer
> whose effects
>sends and mic preamps work this way.

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-28 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: "Crawley, Eric" <esc@...>
> Boy, you do like LEDs Larry!  I think that's a bit of overkill,
especially
> on a panel that doesn't need power for normal operation.

MOTM = Overkill    And, that's a good thing.
<snicker>
Stooge Larry

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-28 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <PaulBr@...>
> 
> As much as I rather like LEDs, I'll have to poo-poo this
> idea too.  Sorry!  My concerns are... 

No need to be sorry Paul.  I threw it out there for criticism and not a
serious suggestion for Paul to "build one like this" but as fodder for
discussion.  Hell, you just can't talk about anything without throwing an
LED into the discussion mix <grin>

> 1) Keeping straight whether a lit-up LED meant normallized
> or not would leave me scratching me poor head.  OTOH, I
> would likely remember it well enough before long.

ON = connection ON,    OFF = connection OFF

Let's not even TALK about two colors.... HA HA

> 2) I don't quite understand the reason for it if you can tell
> whether a 4x4 is normallized by lack of jack in the upper-left.
> Perhaps you can explain further and I'll see the LED, er, light!  :)

You are absolutely correct.  It is simply another "option" for people to
think about.  The big issue of course is that this panel does not need
power, so why.  BUT, if you were DIYing something and had a power
distribution panel on the back.......  let your imagination run.  And,
hummm, there is a quick indication that the distribution panel is hot
and.....  Well, the mind wanders.

> In the meanwhile, I would have to say that either 3 or 4 multiples with a
> switch between seems like the best idea to me.  The number of multiples
> would depend on having enough space to easily flip the switch.

Maybe I should shut up since I am building the magic bus.  However, I will
may have a 1U mult in each row too.  Anyhow, it is fun to talk about and
toss around ideas.  And I get a woody talking about LEDs.  HA HA HA

Larry (the lowest of the stooges) Hendry

Re: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-28 by J. Larry Hendry

Thanks you Dave.  I take this "silly idea" stuff serious.

Larry "Gimme ALL your LEDs" Hendry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
> 
> BWAA HAHA HAHA!!
> 
> I don't EVER again want to get any grief from Paul over suggesting
> gratuitous use of LEDs in modules. Larry, you are the new champion!
> 
> Dave "Gimme an LED" Bradley

RE: Multiple Personalities

2000-01-28 by Dave Bradley

Attached is a pic I took last night of the back side of my 940, with an Alco
SPDT switch comfortably nestled between the jacks. There's about 1/16" of
clearance on each side, so the mult with switches idea is in fact physically
possible.

Dave

> > Does anyone have a photo of the back of a MOTM-940 module? i am
> > wondering exactly how much space there is between all these jacks. If
> > you do, could you please send it to this list? Thanks -Nate
> >


[This message contained attachments]