MOTM

Helpful advice from Robert Rich.

> 
> The best use I found for soft sync on the 300 is to
> add the essential non-linear element for chaos
> patches. The "talking chaos" patch, for example, has
> two 300s cross-modulating each other with sign waves,
> both set to approximately the same basic frequency.
> The sync buss is connected, and both are set to soft
> sync. That creates a complex interaction where the
> modules get stuck and unstuck. Wiggling one a tiny bit
> (with a low lagged sample&hold random voltage for
> example) will prevent them from getting locked into a
> pattern.
> 
> As the questioner mentions, The trick of modulating
> VCO pulse width with a high frequency sine for example
> adds a great "fret buzz" sort of timbre to bass
> sounds. For timbral variation within patches, try
> audio-frequency modulating anything with something
> else. Sine waves often make the best sources for audio
> rate modulation, because there's already plenty of
> overtones resulting, so I frequently put a filter into
> full resonance for that purpose.
> 
> If you have two LFOs with FM input, try
> cross-modulating them for complex interactions. If you
> put that output into the VC-in on an oscillator,
> you'll open up a wide range of bleebly sounds, birds,
> wiggly bits, etc.
> 
> Split the output of a filter and process one half with
> other filters and VCAs before putting that signal back
> into an input on the same filter (either audio input
> or the FM input). The feedback loop will affect the
> resonance, and dynamic processing will make the
> interaction very complex. 
> 
> For the above idea and for any other patch, add a
> time-domain digital effect - like echo, reverb,
> chorus, flanging, etc - to the inside of a patch. Use
> outboard effects as if they are modules in the system.
> This opens up an entire realm of options for
> feedback-type patches.
> 
> Rethink the standard use for a module. Did you know
> that a lag processor is a low pass filter? An envelope
> generator is a lag processor? An envelope can even be
> a waveshaper for low audio frequencies at its fastest
> settings. Likewise the 320 LFO makes a good audio-rate
> oscillator for bass sounds with very cool waveshaping
> features.
> 
> Two oscillators at their highest frequencies - above
> hearing -  can cross-modulate each other to create
> difference tones you can hear. That's how a Theremin
> works, and radio. You can do it on MOTM oscillators.
> Try modulating a super-sonic VCO with an external
> audio signal. It's very odd. You can do the same with
> resonating filters.
> 
> Speaking of resonating filters, you can "ping" them
> when they are almost ringing by putting a sharp
> envelope blip into their audio input. It makes a very
> ghostly gamelan-like sound. 
> 
> The idea behind all of these tips is to break the
> established paradigms and rethink the possible role of
> each module. Don't assume a patch has to go
> VCO-VCF-VCA. 
> 
> I hope this helps a bit. - Robert Rich
>

NOTICE: This electronic mail message and its contents, including any attachments hereto (collectively, "this e-mail"), is hereby designated as "confidential and proprietary." This e-mail may be viewed and used only by the person to whom it has been sent and his/her employer solely for the express purpose for which it has been disclosed and only in accordance with any confidentiality or non-disclosure (or similar) agreement between TEAC Corporation or its affiliates and said employer, and may not be disclosed to any other person or entity.

Now that is an awesome list of experiments to try tonight.
Thanks Robert (and Paul)!

(looking forward to hearing your tune Harry, its still downloading)

Hans


--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

> Helpful advice from Robert Rich.
> 
> > 
> > The best use I found for soft sync on the 300 is to
> > add the essential non-linear element for chaos
> > patches. The "talking chaos" patch, for example, has
> > two 300s cross-modulating each other with sign waves,
> > both set to approximately the same basic frequency.
> > The sync buss is connected, and both are set to soft
> > sync. That creates a complex interaction where the
> > modules get stuck and unstuck. Wiggling one a tiny bit
> > (with a low lagged sample&hold random voltage for
> > example) will prevent them from getting locked into a
> > pattern.
> > 
> > As the questioner mentions, The trick of modulating
> > VCO pulse width with a high frequency sine for example
> > adds a great "fret buzz" sort of timbre to bass
> > sounds. For timbral variation within patches, try
> > audio-frequency modulating anything with something
> > else. Sine waves often make the best sources for audio
> > rate modulation, because there's already plenty of
> > overtones resulting, so I frequently put a filter into
> > full resonance for that purpose.
> > 
> > If you have two LFOs with FM input, try
> > cross-modulating them for complex interactions. If you
> > put that output into the VC-in on an oscillator,
> > you'll open up a wide range of bleebly sounds, birds,
> > wiggly bits, etc.
> > 
> > Split the output of a filter and process one half with
> > other filters and VCAs before putting that signal back
> > into an input on the same filter (either audio input
> > or the FM input). The feedback loop will affect the
> > resonance, and dynamic processing will make the
> > interaction very complex. 
> > 
> > For the above idea and for any other patch, add a
> > time-domain digital effect - like echo, reverb,
> > chorus, flanging, etc - to the inside of a patch. Use
> > outboard effects as if they are modules in the system.
> > This opens up an entire realm of options for
> > feedback-type patches.
> > 
> > Rethink the standard use for a module. Did you know
> > that a lag processor is a low pass filter? An envelope
> > generator is a lag processor? An envelope can even be
> > a waveshaper for low audio frequencies at its fastest
> > settings. Likewise the 320 LFO makes a good audio-rate
> > oscillator for bass sounds with very cool waveshaping
> > features.
> > 
> > Two oscillators at their highest frequencies - above
> > hearing -  can cross-modulate each other to create
> > difference tones you can hear. That's how a Theremin
> > works, and radio. You can do it on MOTM oscillators.
> > Try modulating a super-sonic VCO with an external
> > audio signal. It's very odd. You can do the same with
> > resonating filters.
> > 
> > Speaking of resonating filters, you can "ping" them
> > when they are almost ringing by putting a sharp
> > envelope blip into their audio input. It makes a very
> > ghostly gamelan-like sound. 
> > 
> > The idea behind all of these tips is to break the
> > established paradigms and rethink the possible role of
> > each module. Don't assume a patch has to go
> > VCO-VCF-VCA. 
> > 
> > I hope this helps a bit. - Robert Rich
> >
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

At 02:31 PM 9/19/2007, Jeff Laity wrote:

>Wow, thank you.
>
>
>On Sep 19, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>
>>Helpful advice from Robert Rich.


I'll second that "Wow."

Robert Rich: World's greatest help desk technician! ;-)
--
john


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM

Thanks Robert and Paul for all these suggestions and tips. I took the liberty to re-post this 
on my blog, as I feel a lot of people out there could get something useful out of this. Hope 
you guys don't mind :-) I currently have about 50 to 100 visitors per day on my blog. 
www.motmsynth.blogspot.com.

Koos

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:

>
> Helpful advice from Robert Rich.
> 
> > 
> > The best use I found for soft sync on the 300 is to
> > add the essential non-linear element for chaos
> > patches. The "talking chaos" patch, for example, has
> > two 300s cross-modulating each other with sign waves,
> > both set to approximately the same basic frequency.
> > The sync buss is connected, and both are set to soft
> > sync. That creates a complex interaction where the
> > modules get stuck and unstuck. Wiggling one a tiny bit
> > (with a low lagged sample&hold random voltage for
> > example) will prevent them from getting locked into a
> > pattern.
> > 
> > As the questioner mentions, The trick of modulating
> > VCO pulse width with a high frequency sine for example
> > adds a great "fret buzz" sort of timbre to bass
> > sounds. For timbral variation within patches, try
> > audio-frequency modulating anything with something
> > else. Sine waves often make the best sources for audio
> > rate modulation, because there's already plenty of
> > overtones resulting, so I frequently put a filter into
> > full resonance for that purpose.
> > 
> > If you have two LFOs with FM input, try
> > cross-modulating them for complex interactions. If you
> > put that output into the VC-in on an oscillator,
> > you'll open up a wide range of bleebly sounds, birds,
> > wiggly bits, etc.
> > 
> > Split the output of a filter and process one half with
> > other filters and VCAs before putting that signal back
> > into an input on the same filter (either audio input
> > or the FM input). The feedback loop will affect the
> > resonance, and dynamic processing will make the
> > interaction very complex. 
> > 
> > For the above idea and for any other patch, add a
> > time-domain digital effect - like echo, reverb,
> > chorus, flanging, etc - to the inside of a patch. Use
> > outboard effects as if they are modules in the system.
> > This opens up an entire realm of options for
> > feedback-type patches.
> > 
> > Rethink the standard use for a module. Did you know
> > that a lag processor is a low pass filter? An envelope
> > generator is a lag processor? An envelope can even be
> > a waveshaper for low audio frequencies at its fastest
> > settings. Likewise the 320 LFO makes a good audio-rate
> > oscillator for bass sounds with very cool waveshaping
> > features.
> > 
> > Two oscillators at their highest frequencies - above
> > hearing -  can cross-modulate each other to create
> > difference tones you can hear. That's how a Theremin
> > works, and radio. You can do it on MOTM oscillators.
> > Try modulating a super-sonic VCO with an external
> > audio signal. It's very odd. You can do the same with
> > resonating filters.
> > 
> > Speaking of resonating filters, you can "ping" them
> > when they are almost ringing by putting a sharp
> > envelope blip into their audio input. It makes a very
> > ghostly gamelan-like sound. 
> > 
> > The idea behind all of these tips is to break the
> > established paradigms and rethink the possible role of
> > each module. Don't assume a patch has to go
> > VCO-VCF-VCA. 
> > 
> > I hope this helps a bit. - Robert Rich
> >
>

Great!  Thanks.  I get stuck in a rut or two myself.

About this suggestion by Robert:  I use a Lexicon MPX-1 to add effects 
through my external mixer send and return.  Great idea to take the MPX-1 
output and feed it back into the MOTM.  But it is at line level.  I 
don't have an external input module yet.  This looks like another DIY 
project.  Blacet has an input module with envelope follower, but I want 
a stereo unit.  Ideas?

Richard Brewster
http://www.pugix.com

Paul Schreiber wrote:

> Helpful advice from Robert Rich.
>   
>> For the above idea and for any other patch, add a
>> time-domain digital effect - like echo, reverb,
>> chorus, flanging, etc - to the inside of a patch. Use
>> outboard effects as if they are modules in the system.
>> This opens up an entire realm of options for
>> feedback-type patches.
>>

On 19.09.2007 20:18 Uhr, Paul Schreiber wrote:
> Helpful advice from Robert Rich.
>
>   
>> The best use I found for soft sync on the 300 is to
>> add the essential non-linear element for chaos
>> patches. The "talking chaos" patch, for example, has
>> two 300s cross-modulating each other with sign waves,
>> both set to approximately the same basic frequency.
>> The sync buss is connected, and both are set to soft
>> sync. That creates a complex interaction where the
>> modules get stuck and unstuck. 



Hi Harry!

Coincidentally it happend two weeks ago that I used that sort of things 
in one of our improvisations.
>> Wiggling one a tiny bit
>> (with a low lagged sample&hold random voltage for
>> example) will prevent them from getting locked into a
>> pattern.
>>     

Many times I do the wiggling myself by playing the synthesizer with 
patchcords, knobs etc.
Or I apply a small portion of noise in the control path which also 
supports this stuck/unstuck type of pulsation etc.

Since all my patches evolve while performing I just can say that for the 
sounds below cross fm with a degree of sync was used.
A lot of experimentation is needed, but it's relatively easy to achieve 
a nice result.
Sometimes something I didn't dare to imagine before patching.
Much time goes into fine tuning or preparation before playing.

In many cases before starting the piece I have to do a rough run through 
its possibilties to avoid "noise cancelling" ... or getting stuck like 
Robert names it.

I took two excerpts of the above mentioned improvisation.

The first one is probably a bit like the talking chaos patch Robert 
mentioned above.

The first track is the rough mix from the impro (Eric and me playing) 
the second one is just the modular synth (aiff and mp3)

http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-1b.mp3 
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-1b.aif  (12MB)
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-1s.mp3
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-1s.aif   (12MB)

The third track is also the rough mix of a later part of the very same 
improvisation, where I played a dirty and pulsing bass sound using the 
very same patch  (different settings of course). The fourth one again is 
just the analouge track. Beware of the LF!

http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-2b.mp3
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-2b.aif   (34MB)
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-2s.mp3
http://blauwurf.info/audio/demos+excerpts/e+m-070912_xcrpts-2s.aif   (34MB)

Btw, there is no abuse of modules ... ok, maybe be playing them with a 
hammer ...
No, seriously ... explore the limits, and beyond.
Don't be afraid of for instance higher noise level just because you have 
to crank up the gain or such.
Think of functions ... use "flaws" (like unstable voltages ... ok, well 
this is a MOTM list  :-p )  as part of the patch etc. (like the drooping 
bass above).


       HTH a bit,    Michael.

PS: Always leave "record" on ;-)



-- 
nonconform? noiseconform: http://blauwurf.at/

While I don't own an MPX-1 myself, as far as I can remember, it has
both input and output level knobs, and -10/+4 switches in the back.
So I don't think you would need any any sort of I/O module.  Also,
considering that the MPX-1 can send most of its internal mod sources
as MIDI data, you could use it with a MIDI-->CV converter to create
LFO's, envelope followers, etc.

Anyway, it wouldn't be too difficult to build a 1U triple preamp.
Just put an attenuator before an op-amp, then you would have
adjustable gain from "negative infinity" to whatever you gain set the amp
(eg. 15-20 dB).  You could build it on a MUUB, MOTM breadboard, etc.
You could even use an Oakley multimix panel if you didn't mind the
knobs being labeled wrong.

On 9/19/07, Richard Brewster put forth:

>Great!  Thanks.  I get stuck in a rut or two myself.
>
>About this suggestion by Robert:  I use a Lexicon MPX-1 to add effects
>through my external mixer send and return.  Great idea to take the MPX-1
>output and feed it back into the MOTM.  But it is at line level.  I
>don't have an external input module yet.  This looks like another DIY
>project.  Blacet has an input module with envelope follower, but I want
>a stereo unit.  Ideas?

I built an interface to my reel-reel for echo and delay using the cgs-
23 board.  Makes for a great preamp.
http://modularsynthesis.com/modules/DJB-012/djb012.htm

I added a switchable gain to my multimix.
http://modularsynthesis.com/oakley/oakley.htm

I added a variable gain to my MOTM-890.
http://modularsynthesis.com/motm/MOTM-890.jpg
http://modularsynthesis.com/motm/MOTM-890_panel.jpg

None of these are stereo but the cgs-23 would probably be the easiest 
to do. I like the variable gain the best as it seems to work best 
across a number of different external units.  I've found that some of 
my rack units can take pretty high levels also.

Dave


--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Mark <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
> 
> While I don't own an MPX-1 myself, as far as I can remember, it has
> both input and output level knobs, and -10/+4 switches in the back.
> So I don't think you would need any any sort of I/O module.  Also,
> considering that the MPX-1 can send most of its internal mod sources
> as MIDI data, you could use it with a MIDI-->CV converter to create
> LFO's, envelope followers, etc.
> 
> Anyway, it wouldn't be too difficult to build a 1U triple preamp.
> Just put an attenuator before an op-amp, then you would have
> adjustable gain from "negative infinity" to whatever you gain set 
the amp
> (eg. 15-20 dB).  You could build it on a MUUB, MOTM breadboard, etc.
> You could even use an Oakley multimix panel if you didn't mind the
> knobs being labeled wrong.
> 
> On 9/19/07, Richard Brewster put forth:
> >Great!  Thanks.  I get stuck in a rut or two myself.
> >
> >About this suggestion by Robert:  I use a Lexicon MPX-1 to add 
effects
> >through my external mixer send and return.  Great idea to take the 
MPX-1
> >output and feed it back into the MOTM.  But it is at line level.  I
> >don't have an external input module yet.  This looks like another 
DIY
> >project.  Blacet has an input module with envelope follower, but I 
want
> >a stereo unit.  Ideas?
>

The MPX-1 has in input level switch to choose between Unbalanced (8 dBu 
to -14 dBu) and Balanced (+20dBu to -2dBu).  I am using the inputs 
unbalanced at the higher sensitivity, patched from my mixer effects 
sends.  I suppose I could switch to the lower sensitivity, but the MOTM 
outputs are unbalanced.  Shouldn't matter if the ring lug gets grounded 
by a patch cord, right?  The outputs are +18 dBu at max scale.  I'll 
just have to try it.  The only thing I did with the MIDI on the MPX-1 
was hook it to my keyboard MIDI out.  But I did not try using it as a 
controller for the MOTM-650.  I'll try that too.  Thanks for the ideas.

-Richard

Mark wrote:

> While I don't own an MPX-1 myself, as far as I can remember, it has
> both input and output level knobs, and -10/+4 switches in the back.
> So I don't think you would need any any sort of I/O module.  Also,
> considering that the MPX-1 can send most of its internal mod sources
> as MIDI data, you could use it with a MIDI-->CV converter to create
> LFO's, envelope followers, etc.
>
> Anyway, it wouldn't be too difficult to build a 1U triple preamp.
> Just put an attenuator before an op-amp, then you would have
> adjustable gain from "negative infinity" to whatever you gain set the amp
> (eg. 15-20 dB).  You could build it on a MUUB, MOTM breadboard, etc.
> You could even use an Oakley multimix panel if you didn't mind the
> knobs being labeled wrong.
>
> On 9/19/07, Richard Brewster put forth:
>   
>> Great!  Thanks.  I get stuck in a rut or two myself.
>>
>> About this suggestion by Robert:  I use a Lexicon MPX-1 to add effects
>> through my external mixer send and return.  Great idea to take the MPX-1
>> output and feed it back into the MOTM.  But it is at line level.  I
>> don't have an external input module yet.  This looks like another DIY
>> project.  Blacet has an input module with envelope follower, but I want
>> a stereo unit.  Ideas?
>>     
>
>

On 9/23/07, Richard Brewster put forth:
>The MPX-1 has in input level switch to choose between Unbalanced (8 dBu
>to -14 dBu) and Balanced (+20dBu to -2dBu).

MOTM is about 13dB.  I'm not sure what those numbers mean, but I'm
guessing the lower number is minimum full scale (below that the S/N
goes out the window), that clipping the analogue input is not much of
an issue, and the input knob is before the AD.

>I am using the inputs unbalanced at the higher sensitivity, patched
>from my mixer effects sends.

Well, most mixers should be able to send a hotter signal.

>I suppose I could switch to the lower sensitivity, but the MOTM
>outputs are unbalanced.  Shouldn't matter if the ring lug gets grounded
>by a patch cord, right?

It shouldn't, although it might reduce the level slightly.  While
Lexicon boxes generally have rather high input impedances (higher
than many other effects), afaik, the "unbalanced" setting has a lower
impedance than the "balanced" setting.

>The outputs are +18 dBu at max scale.  I'll just have to try it.

Unlike most Lexicon boxes, the MPX1 has the convenience of an output knob :)

>The only thing I did with the MIDI on the MPX-1 was hook it to my
>keyboard MIDI out.  But I did not try using it as a controller for
>the MOTM-650.  I'll try that too.  Thanks for the ideas.

Yes, the MPX1 is rather unique in that regard.  With the tap input
you can use an MOTM-650 to generate synced LFO's.  My PCM-80's can't
do that.  Also, you can use the pedal input as a CV input, so you can
use an MOTM-320 as a mod source.  Although, if it like most Lexicon
boxes, it doesn't like negative voltages, so you need to scale and
offset the 320 output.

Not long ago I built a module for my MOTM system that has four
unbalanced-to-balanced line drivers/converters and two
balanced-to-unbalanced line receivers. The latter act as outputs from the
synthesizer; the former are inputs. This lets me make balanced connections
between the synth and my Apogee converter. I did this mostly because my
studio layout makes it necessary to run longish cables between the synth and
the converter, but I think that it improved the sound quality of the
connection a bit also. Thanks in part to the excellent support for external
hardware in Cubase, this module lets me use my synthesizer as both an
instrument and an insert effect within my DAW.

The module was pretty easy to build. I just used balanced line driver and
receiver chips from THAT Corp. and followed the design suggestions in their
app notes.

--Adam

Can you post a circuit schematic diagram, Adam?

Thanks,

Richard Brewster
http://www.pugix.com

Adam Schabtach wrote:

> Not long ago I built a module for my MOTM system that has four
> unbalanced-to-balanced line drivers/converters and two
> balanced-to-unbalanced line receivers. The latter act as outputs from the
> synthesizer; the former are inputs. This lets me make balanced connections
> between the synth and my Apogee converter. I did this mostly because my
> studio layout makes it necessary to run longish cables between the synth and
> the converter, but I think that it improved the sound quality of the
> connection a bit also. Thanks in part to the excellent support for external
> hardware in Cubase, this module lets me use my synthesizer as both an
> instrument and an insert effect within my DAW.
>
> The module was pretty easy to build. I just used balanced line driver and
> receiver chips from THAT Corp. and followed the design suggestions in their
> app notes.
>
> --Adam
>
>
>
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Richard,
 
There's really nothing to post. I copied the circuits directly from the
application notes for the THAT 1646 and THAT 1246 chips. You can find PDFs
of the app notes at THAT's website. Arguably if I did post my circuits it
would be a copyright violation. :-)
 
The chips are dead-simple to use. The only external components you need are
some caps that are actually optional but improve performance somewhat (if I
remember correctly). You can order the chips from Mouser although they don't
seem to carry the entire THAT line. 
 
--Adam
 


  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Brewster
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:29 PM
To: lists@...
Cc: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: External feedback; was Re: [motm] Stuck in a rut (help)



Can you post a circuit schematic diagram, Adam?

Thanks,

Richard Brewster
http://www.pugix. <http://www.pugix.com> com

Adam Schabtach wrote:
> Not long ago I built a module for my MOTM system that has four
> unbalanced-to-balanced line drivers/converters and two
> balanced-to-unbalanced line receivers. The latter act as outputs from the
> synthesizer; the former are inputs. This lets me make balanced connections
> between the synth and my Apogee converter. I did this mostly because my
> studio layout makes it necessary to run longish cables between the synth
and
> the converter, but I think that it improved the sound quality of the
> connection a bit also. Thanks in part to the excellent support for
external
> hardware in Cubase, this module lets me use my synthesizer as both an
> instrument and an insert effect within my DAW.
>
> The module was pretty easy to build. I just used balanced line driver and
> receiver chips from THAT Corp. and followed the design suggestions in
their

> app notes.
>
> --Adam
>
>
>
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>