Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

More on kits

2006-07-06 by Paul Schreiber

> Everything I've bought from Paul so far has
> been a kit. I wish there was some way he could rethink his big change
> and leave some vestige of his kits available.

I am betting that Oakley will 'replace' MOTM as the #1 supplier of large format
modular kits.

Please be aware that I didn't just wake up one day and say to myself "Hmmmm...I
think I'll deep six all the kits today...yawn...."

Sadly, it's a *business* decision, pure and simple. The orders for kits are in
*severe decline* and I think the main reason is most MOTM users have all the
"regular" modules they need and want cool new stuff. As far as new customers
coming on board: it's true that every year about 30 new MOTMers sign on. But,
and this is the frustrating but.....about 40 people "drop off" never to be heard
from again. The most sobering statistic: only 22% of the first *300* MOTM
customers have bought a module from me in the last 18 months.

Hopefully the 15% off sale will convince the wife that you can finish your MOTM
kits.

Paul S.

Future Documentation

2006-07-06 by xamboldt

One small concern I have regards the documentation that will be
available for future modules. I always liked the "peek under the
hood" you'd get with the traditional MOTM docs (detailed explanations
of how the module works, schematics, etc). Of course, these are the
same types of docs you'd probably continue to get with the future
assembled analog modules.

But with the different technology being used in the Audio Engine, and
the likelihood that the software wouldn't be open-sourced (for
understandable reasons), I'm wondering if the docs will be a little
less "meaty." Not being a programmer, I'd probably not be able to
understand much of what could be written anyway. It could very well
be that sophisticated docs won't be necessary. I guess to use a
module you don't need much more than "plug X in to Y and Z will
happen" anyway.

Before I keep on blathering, I'll just ask a question: Any ideas of
what we could expect in terms of documentation for the Audio Engine
modules? Apologies if this is way too premature...

-Chris

Re: More on kits

2006-07-06 by mbedtom

Paul S. said in part...

Sadly, it's a *business* decision, pure and simple. The orders for
kits are in *severe decline* and I think the main reason is most MOTM
users have all the "regular" modules they need and want cool new
stuff. As far as new customers coming on board: it's true that every
year about 30 new MOTMers sign on. But, and this is the frustrating
but.....about 40 people "drop off" never to be heard from again. The
most sobering statistic: only 22% of the first *300* MOTM customers
have bought a module from me in the last 18 months.

----snip----

When I first bought MOTM kits, gasoline was $1.43 a gallon. Today,
the same gas costs me $3.18 per gallon. For me, MOTM products were
purchased with discretionary dollars. Those dollars have been eroded
by many factors beyond the scope of what I am willing to say for the
sake of brevity. The kit business is what put SynthTech on the map.
The death of Larry Hendry and the demise of "Stooge Industries" were
major "hits" as both comprised the best MOTM sales/support machine you
could have ever had. The "lifetime" point system died an early death
and kit prices climbed 35% since I came on board. Now, the kits are
on their last leg. The "main" reason kit sales are on the decline, in
my opinion, has little to do with a need for "cool new stuff" and much
to do with other factors. For your sake Paul, I hope I am dead wrong.

I can appreciate the necessity for profit-centric business decisions,
for which I have no complaint. Maybe kits really are dead. Maybe kit
prices have risen to the point that the size of the market has shrunk
to unsustainable levels. Finding the sweet spot is the holy grail of
business and I understand that.

On the other hand, I think that the DIY spirit is still alive. I
think that if boards and proper documentation were made available at
inexpensive prices, people would buy them even if they had to get
Front Panel Express panels and buy their own parts. If you believe
that the kit business is of no further value, let me have copies of
the PC board Gerber files for the through-hole boards and I'll get
them made at my own expense. I have no business aspirations and if I
shipped out boards at a break-even price that would be okay by me.
For about $25 each any MOTM PC board could be shipped anywhere in the
US and not lose money. I would do this in the spirit of Electronotes,
back in the days when they would sell essential components at very
little margin. The buyers of assembled units would be unfazed and you
would get a market segment in-waiting for the really cool,
assembled-only modules with which I could not help them.

This is just an idea I am floating out there, and I could easily be
out of my mind. (My wife knows I am out of my mind. Still, she has
hung around for 30 years so she must be crazy too!)

Peace.
Tom Farrand
<engage lurk mode & duck>

Re: [motm] Future Documentation

2006-07-06 by Paul Schreiber

> Before I keep on blathering, I'll just ask a question: Any ideas of
> what we could expect in terms of documentation for the Audio Engine
> modules? Apologies if this is way too premature...

The current detail of the documentation is necessary in order to

a) build the kits
b) repair the module (both kits and assembled) in the future (if that is
possible)
c) understand the circuit
d) how to use it

I don't have a problem with future modules having schematics. But source code?
Probably not for many years after the product is in the field.
Binary images so that you can have the factory shipped version? No problem
there, either.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Future Documentation

2006-07-06 by Robert van der Kamp

On Thursday 06 July 2006 14:38, Paul Schreiber wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> I don't have a problem with future modules having schematics. But source
> code? Probably not for many years after the product is in the field.

Hmm, hard times ahead for Doepfer. ;)

- Robert

Re: [motm] Future Documentation

2006-07-06 by Greg Amann

You know, I just NEVER get sick of this joke. It ALWAYS makes me
smile. ;-)

Without any sense of post-modern irony whatsoever, Greg

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On 6-Jul-06, at 9:19 AM, Robert van der Kamp wrote:

> On Thursday 06 July 2006 14:38, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>
>> I don't have a problem with future modules having schematics. But
>> source
>> code? Probably not for many years after the product is in the field.
>
> Hmm, hard times ahead for Doepfer. ;)
>
> - Robert
>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-08 by groovyshaman

No more kits?!? That's a definite downer. Back in 2001 when I decided to
get into modular fun, the reason I chose MOTM was 1) the large format, and
2) availability of kits. I had no idea about the excellent quality I would
end up with, so that did not enter the equation. I really liked Modcan, but
no kits were available, so my decision was made.

Kits are great because they are relaxing, teach you something, and give you
a sense of accomplishment when you look at and listen to the results. The
ability to modify them is also interesting. And if that isn't enough, they
are usually less expensive. I have bought one or more of every module that
Paul has offered in kit form (~50 modules). I had planned to continue to do
so into the future.

I am another one that has not bought kits recently, alas. Paul is right
about module assortment; I have a good enough collection of basic modules at
the moment and am looking forward to the more esoteric modules coming out.
That is why I had set aside some $$$ and placed orders for all of the new
modules, even though most are not kits and are 2-3 times the cost of prior
kits. That being said, Tom F. hits the nail on the head regarding
discretionary cash. There have been a few different factors that have
reduced my budget and forced my regular orders into submission. Gas,
stocking up on non-RoHS parts, rising kit prices, etc.

I respect Paul for what he has accomplished and appreciate the hard work
that is maintaining/growing a personal business. His little hobby has made
my little hobby possible - for which I'm thankful. He must make hard
decisions that will affect his future, hopefully for the better.

That being said, I still want kits, damit. Trust me, the demand for kits is
not dead. Kits put a number of manufacturers on the map, and keep them
there. Kits are why I chose MOTM. Paul is a sharp dude. I believe the
real reason for his stopping kits is because he'd rather spend time
designing new cool stuff than stuffing parts in bags. He has to have fun
too. I respect that.

In any case, the lack of available kits will redirect much of my interest in
other directions. There of course will be some MOTM modules which I will
just *have* to have. And I wouldn't trade the modules I already have for
anything. But it's looking like the face of my ever-growing modular will be
changing, which I guess is inevitable.

Regards,
George Kisslak

PS: Tom - your idea in the spirit of Electronotes is excellent.

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "mbedtom" <mbedtom@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:30 AM
Subject: [motm] Re: More on kits

> Paul S. said in part...
>
> Sadly, it's a *business* decision, pure and simple. The orders for
> kits are in *severe decline* and I think the main reason is most MOTM
> users have all the "regular" modules they need and want cool new
> stuff. As far as new customers coming on board: it's true that every
> year about 30 new MOTMers sign on. But, and this is the frustrating
> but.....about 40 people "drop off" never to be heard from again. The
> most sobering statistic: only 22% of the first *300* MOTM customers
> have bought a module from me in the last 18 months.
>
> ----snip----
>
> When I first bought MOTM kits, gasoline was $1.43 a gallon. Today,
> the same gas costs me $3.18 per gallon. For me, MOTM products were
> purchased with discretionary dollars. Those dollars have been eroded
> by many factors beyond the scope of what I am willing to say for the
> sake of brevity. The kit business is what put SynthTech on the map.
> The death of Larry Hendry and the demise of "Stooge Industries" were
> major "hits" as both comprised the best MOTM sales/support machine you
> could have ever had. The "lifetime" point system died an early death
> and kit prices climbed 35% since I came on board. Now, the kits are
> on their last leg. The "main" reason kit sales are on the decline, in
> my opinion, has little to do with a need for "cool new stuff" and much
> to do with other factors. For your sake Paul, I hope I am dead wrong.
>
> I can appreciate the necessity for profit-centric business decisions,
> for which I have no complaint. Maybe kits really are dead. Maybe kit
> prices have risen to the point that the size of the market has shrunk
> to unsustainable levels. Finding the sweet spot is the holy grail of
> business and I understand that.
>
> On the other hand, I think that the DIY spirit is still alive. I
> think that if boards and proper documentation were made available at
> inexpensive prices, people would buy them even if they had to get
> Front Panel Express panels and buy their own parts. If you believe
> that the kit business is of no further value, let me have copies of
> the PC board Gerber files for the through-hole boards and I'll get
> them made at my own expense. I have no business aspirations and if I
> shipped out boards at a break-even price that would be okay by me.
> For about $25 each any MOTM PC board could be shipped anywhere in the
> US and not lose money. I would do this in the spirit of Electronotes,
> back in the days when they would sell essential components at very
> little margin. The buyers of assembled units would be unfazed and you
> would get a market segment in-waiting for the really cool,
> assembled-only modules with which I could not help them.
>
> This is just an idea I am floating out there, and I could easily be
> out of my mind. (My wife knows I am out of my mind. Still, she has
> hung around for 30 years so she must be crazy too!)
>
> Peace.
> Tom Farrand
> <engage lurk mode & duck>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-08 by Paul Schreiber

Well, there is Tony Allgood and his partner gearing Oakley back up. Maybe that
will fill the void next year.

Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I did that I
would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost of the
board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a market for
that? Hard to say. I'm not going to sell $12 pc boards a la CatGirl.

Is there a market for kits? Well, of course there is. But for whatever
reason(s), in my "market space" is is shrinking while assembled modules are
growing. Go figure (shrug).

Paul S.
T minus 1hr, 3min and counting.......

Re: More on kits

2006-07-08 by djbrow54

My cheapest FrontPanelExpress panels are ~$50 so I would consider
purchase at this price. Can't answer if there is a market. I just
bought 6 modules (and only have room for 5) ...

Dave

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:
> Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I
> did that I would probably have to charge $79 across the board
> (because my cost of the board/panel is independent from *what* the
> circuit does). Is there a market for that?

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-08 by David Moylan

This is also an idea I would support. There are synth-diy-ers out there
buying CGS and other PCB only products and this might actually open MOTM
up to more buyers. $79 for pcb/bracket/hi quality panel sounds cheap to
me. And I'd prefer a genuine MOTM panel to an FPE.

Doesn't seem like it would be a lot of labor to put the minimal kits
together. Plus, I think the MOTM community could step up enough to put
parts lists together for the major electronic parts suppliers. Dave
Bradley already has a brief list of MOTM equivalent parts on his site

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/parts_list.htm

Keep us posted Paul.

Dave

djbrow54 wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> My cheapest FrontPanelExpress panels are ~$50 so I would consider
> purchase at this price. Can't answer if there is a market. I just
> bought 6 modules (and only have room for 5) ...
>
> Dave
>
> --- In motm@yahoogroups.com <mailto:motm%40yahoogroups.com>, "Paul
> Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:
> > Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I
> > did that I would probably have to charge $79 across the board
> > (because my cost of the board/panel is independent from *what* the
> > circuit does). Is there a market for that?
>
>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-08 by Michael McGrath

Add me to the list if by some chance PCB+panel would come in at $75

I'm sure I can find all the other parts at digikey or mouser.

------------------------------
This message was sent from
my Blackberry wireless device.

Re: Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-09 by Stephen Drake

On 7/8/06, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

>
> Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I did
> that I
> would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost of the
> board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a market
> for
> that?

I'd buy them for that price!

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Drake
sduck409@...
makeme1witheverything@...

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-09 by Jason Proctor

add my vote to the $79 pcb/panel/bracket crowd please :-)

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>Well, there is Tony Allgood and his partner gearing Oakley back up. Maybe that
>will fill the void next year.
>
>Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I
>did that I
>would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost of the
>board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a
>market for
>that? Hard to say. I'm not going to sell $12 pc boards a la CatGirl.
>
>Is there a market for kits? Well, of course there is. But for whatever
>reason(s), in my "market space" is is shrinking while assembled modules are
>growing. Go figure (shrug).
>
>Paul S.
>T minus 1hr, 3min and counting.......

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-09 by xamboldt

Ditto for me.

-Chris

On Jul 8, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Michael McGrath wrote:

> Add me to the list if by some chance PCB+panel would come in at $75
>
> I'm sure I can find all the other parts at digikey or mouser.
>
> ------------------------------
> This message was sent from
> my Blackberry wireless device.
>
>

RE: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-09 by Adam Schabtach

> Add me to the list if by some chance PCB+panel would come in at $75
>
> I'm sure I can find all the other parts at digikey or mouser.

I agree that the $79 pricetag would be quite acceptable, considering the
quality of the circuit designs and PCB and panel. However, parts
availability is a potential stumbling block: you _can't_ find a CA3080 at
Mouser or Digi-Key, for example; they're no longer made. OP275s are starting
to look like an endangered species also; Digi-Key has 'em but Mouser lists
them as "obsolete" and their suggested substitute is not available in a DIP
package. I assume that such availability issues are another reason for
Paul's decisions regarding kits and SMT fabrication. Just a thought.

--Adam
(hoarding his extra CA3080s)

[motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by Mike Marsh

So would I...

Mike

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Drake"
<makeme1witheverything@...> wrote:

>
> On 7/8/06, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> >
> > Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and

*if* I did

> > that I
> > would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my

cost of the

> > board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is

there a market

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> > for
> > that?
>
> I'd buy them for that price!
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Stephen Drake
> sduck409@...
> makeme1witheverything@...
>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by Scott Juskiw

>Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I
>did that I
>would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost of the
>board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a
>market for
>that?

I believe there is a market, count me in as a customer.

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by Jason Proctor

seriously - $80 for pcb/panel/bracket is a way better deal than $40
for just the pcb.

however the $40 pcb thing does open up possibilities, such as putting
most of an motm-101 behind a 1U FPE panel for example.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>I believe there is a market, count me in as a customer.
>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by groovyshaman

> Well, there is Tony Allgood and his partner gearing Oakley back up. Maybe

that

> will fill the void next year.

Yes - this is really exciting news.

> Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if* I did

that I

> would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost of the
> board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a

market for

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> that? Hard to say. I'm not going to sell $12 pc boards a la CatGirl.

I bet there would be a market in that price range - provided parts are still
available from somewhere. Wouldn't 1U panels be less costly than 2U?

-George

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by Robert van der Kamp

Me too, provided getting the parts is relatively easy. Meaning only one or two
sources, and a list of part numbers, so I won't have to think stuff like
"Capacitor? What KIND of capacitor? There are TONS of types of capacitors!"

- Robert

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Monday 10 July 2006 02:37, Mike Marsh wrote:
> So would I...
>
> Mike
>
> --- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Drake"
>
> <makeme1witheverything@...> wrote:
> > On 7/8/06, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> > > Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and
>
> *if* I did
>
> > > that I
> > > would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my
>
> cost of the
>
> > > board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is
>
> there a market
>
> > > for
> > > that?
> >
> > I'd buy them for that price!
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Stephen Drake
> > sduck409@...
> > makeme1witheverything@...

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by synth1@airmail.net

> Me too, provided getting the parts is relatively easy. Meaning only one or
> two
> sources, and a list of part numbers, so I won't have to think stuff like
> "Capacitor? What KIND of capacitor? There are TONS of types of
> capacitors!"

I would have Mouser and Digikey part numbers. You can buy from them or
anywhere else. But, there would be a point of refenence to at least look
at datasheets.

My current thinking is $79 for 1U wide modules and $89 for the 2U wide.

Also, there are some parts like the dual FET in the VCO that is non-trival
to buy a few. So I suppose I'll open a parts department (ack!).

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by tom.adam@telenet.be

Me too,
ToAd

>
>--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Drake"
><makeme1witheverything@...> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/8/06, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Many people has asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and
>*if* I did
>> > that I
>> > would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my
>cost of the
>> > board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is
>there a market
>> > for
>> > that?
>>
>> I'd buy them for that price!
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Stephen Drake
>> sduck409@...
>> makeme1witheverything@...
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [motm] Re: More on kits

2006-07-10 by Robert van der Kamp

On Monday 10 July 2006 07:24, synth1@... wrote:

> > Me too, provided getting the parts is relatively easy. Meaning only one
> > or two
> > sources, and a list of part numbers, so I won't have to think stuff like
> > "Capacitor? What KIND of capacitor? There are TONS of types of
> > capacitors!"
>
> I would have Mouser and Digikey part numbers. You can buy from them or
> anywhere else. But, there would be a point of refenence to at least look
> at datasheets.

Very nice! :)

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> My current thinking is $79 for 1U wide modules and $89 for the 2U wide.
>
> Also, there are some parts like the dual FET in the VCO that is non-trival
> to buy a few. So I suppose I'll open a parts department (ack!).

Heh, it never ends, does it? ;)

- Robert

Re: More on kits (sorry, old thread)

2006-08-03 by Larry T.

Sorry it this is a little 'late' but I'm still trying to get through
the digests that stacked up while I was on vacation at the beginning
of July.

1) I'm sorry to hear that kits are being dropped. I only order a
couple per year, and then generally in the November (my birthday) or
December/January (Christmas) timeframe.

2) The idea of paying $79.00 for pcb/bracket/front panel is great!
The front panel is often the biggest issue. I have a number of Cat
Girl PCB's, and with the untimely demise of Stooge Industries, I may
never build them as I'm not hot on making my own fron panels.

3) My 'mad money' has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY in the last couple of
years makeing it even hard to get modules. Since kits save money,
then let me get more for what little I had.

Keep up the good work Paul. I'll still be ordering no matter what, it
just may be every 2-3 years instaed of 1 or 2 per year.

Larry T.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:
>
> Many people have asked for "pcb + panel/bracket only" kits and *if*
I did that I
> would probably have to charge $79 across the board (because my cost
of the
> board/panel is independent from *what* the circuit does). Is there a
market for
> that? Hard to say. I'm not going to sell $12 pc boards a la CatGirl.
>
> Is there a market for kits? Well, of course there is. But for whatever
> reason(s), in my "market space" it is shrinking while assembled
modules are
> growing. Go figure (shrug).
>
> Paul S.
> T minus 1hr, 3min and counting.......
>