MOTM

Well, I had 3 "candidates" for the Mystery Module, and the winner
is...........

The VC Lag!

This is a JH/PS design using a simple 4 transistor "quasi-OTA" structure.
Here is a rundown
of the panel/controls so far. As always, inputs requested!

Jacks:

IN
OUT
BYPASS - a shorting of tip to sleeve bypasses the lag. Used  for footswitch
control when
playing live from a keyboard.

UP TIME CV - increasing voltage increases the "Attack" portion
DOWN TIME CV - increasing CV increases the "Release" portion
UP & DOWN CV - moves both at once

Pots:

UP
DOWN
UP/DOWN - all 3 are initial controls or act as attenuators when a CV is
inserted
SHAPE - the glide shape is variable from linear to exponential.

There is 1 on-board offset trimmer (0 out for 0 in).

LED - is ON when BYPASSed (need to pick Red or Green)

Price: $125 kit $180 assembled/tested.

Simulation show linear times are 0-4 seconds and Exponential times are 0-10
seconds. Unfortunately,
it's almost impossible to make them equal.

The INPUT can be CV or audio. Low offset, low-drift op amps are used for use
with CVs running into VCOs.
Even though the circuit "looks simple" these op amps are $$$.

This is a 2U wide module. This will be fairly easy to build, a 3 out of 10.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After reading all the comments on the bigger module, I am still leaning
towards 1U X 19".  The main reason, as
several folks pointed out, is to increase market share. This would *not* be
a MOTM branded product. But
I think that it could wind up at places like Sweetwater and generate
revenue. The reason is that my
DSP consulting job is winding down, and I need some more $$$ to fund R&D for
next year (like the Sequencer!).

In about 10 days I'll have some sound samples..shound give Bob Moog concern!
<hint hint>.

Paul S.

> You asked for a vote on the light, if ON when bypassed, I vote RED.
> Although the two color thing would be REALLY cool with green = active and
> red = bypassed.  <grin>  Would it be possible for the bypass to function
> two ways - one as you described but also going into bypass or active when
a
> certain DC voltage is exceed when applied to the tip connection of the
same
> jack ?


Another way to look at it is to have a GREEN LED for when VC lag is ACTIVE.
Maybe GREEN/RED is OK, it's just the little devils are so $$$. Actually
cheaper to do a '700 style with 1 Red and 1 Green.


I can set the switch point to like below 0.5V = bypass. Stooge Larry is
ratcheting up the features
and price. He needs a job at HP.

>
> Seems to me like the "shape" could actually be varied to lots of other
> extremes by attaching an EG output to  one of the voltage inputs.  If I am
> thinking right, using the negative output of the a 800 seems like you
could
> even get reverse-expo effects.


Now you're cookin'! See how fun modulars can be??!?

>
> It also seems to me that it would be useful to be able to control "initial
> controls" even when using CV.   Help me if I am thinking wrong, but it
> looks like you could by putting the CV into the "UP & DOWN" input and
using
> the separate "UP" and "DOWN" pots for initial control.

Correct! It's just into the summing amps.

>
> Someone PLEASE explain to me how this module would be used with audio as
an
> input.  What are other uses other than portamento & glide effects?


Low-pass filter, of course! What if the input was a LFO....hmmm.......tasty!

> Now, when should I tell her to expect it?  And, the one million dollar
> question...... will it be soon enough so I can give my wife MOTM for
> Christmas?  Now, THAT would be a dream gig !!   <grin>

In Jan. December is DSP month for me. And not much MOTM'ing happening from
Dec.20 to Jan. 4th.
Need *some* geetar time! I got my Line6 POD today! I sound like Santana! <OK
when he was 8 years old>

>
> Concerning 1U x 19" phaser.... GIMME !!    MOTM branded or not, it's going
> in my rack.  I have really been wanting a good phaser and saddened that
> such a great looking MF product is in that "pedal-like" format.


Phaser? Who said "make the Moogerfooger 12-stage look like a toy" phaser?
Me??!?

Paul S.

OH, OH, this sounds great.  I guess the main thing I can thing to use a VC
Lag would be portamento.  Are their others?  Tell me more oh modular gods. 
My comments (since you asked):

You asked for a vote on the light, if ON when bypassed, I vote RED. 
Although the two color thing would be REALLY cool with green = active and
red = bypassed.  <grin>  Would it be possible for the bypass to function
two ways - one as you described but also going into bypass or active when a
certain DC voltage is exceed when applied to the tip connection of the same
jack ?

I really like the idea that you can vary from linear to exponential for use
as portamento.  This will allow duplication of some of the non-typical expo
glides of some of the classics.

Seems to me like the "shape" could actually be varied to lots of other
extremes by attaching an EG output to  one of the voltage inputs.  If I am
thinking right, using the negative output of the a 800 seems like you could
even get reverse-expo effects.

It also seems to me that it would be useful to be able to control "initial
controls" even when using CV.   Help me if I am thinking wrong, but it
looks like you could by putting the CV into the "UP & DOWN" input and using
the separate "UP" and "DOWN" pots for initial control.

Someone PLEASE explain to me how this module would be used with audio as an
input.  What are other uses other than portamento & glide effects? 

Too cool Paul !  A "3 out of 10."  Looks like I tell my wife her module is
coming soon.

Now, when should I tell her to expect it?  And, the one million dollar
question...... will it be soon enough so I can give my wife MOTM for
Christmas?  Now, THAT would be a dream gig !!   <grin>

Concerning 1U x 19" phaser.... GIMME !!    MOTM branded or not, it's going
in my rack.  I have really been wanting a good phaser and saddened that
such a great looking MF product is in that "pedal-like" format.

Larry "Stooge" Hendry

P.S.  Just for s**ts and grins (as they say), what were the other two
candidates for the mystery module?

----------
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> To: MOTM listserv <motm@onelist.com>
> Subject: [motm] No more guessing!
> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 8:30 PM
> 
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> Well, I had 3 "candidates" for the Mystery Module, and the winner
> is...........
> 
> The VC Lag!
> 
> This is a JH/PS design using a simple 4 transistor "quasi-OTA" structure.
> Here is a rundown
> of the panel/controls so far. As always, inputs requested!
> 
> Jacks:
> 
> IN
> OUT
> BYPASS - a shorting of tip to sleeve bypasses the lag. Used  for
footswitch
> control when
> playing live from a keyboard.
> 
> UP TIME CV - increasing voltage increases the "Attack" portion
> DOWN TIME CV - increasing CV increases the "Release" portion
> UP & DOWN CV - moves both at once
> 
> Pots:
> 
> UP
> DOWN
> UP/DOWN - all 3 are initial controls or act as attenuators when a CV is
> inserted
> SHAPE - the glide shape is variable from linear to exponential.
> 
> There is 1 on-board offset trimmer (0 out for 0 in).
> 
> LED - is ON when BYPASSed (need to pick Red or Green)
> 
> Price: $125 kit $180 assembled/tested.
> 
> Simulation show linear times are 0-4 seconds and Exponential times are
0-10
> seconds. Unfortunately,
> it's almost impossible to make them equal.
> 
> The INPUT can be CV or audio. Low offset, low-drift op amps are used for
use
> with CVs running into VCOs.
> Even though the circuit "looks simple" these op amps are $$$.
> 
> This is a 2U wide module. This will be fairly easy to build, a 3 out of
10.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> After reading all the comments on the bigger module, I am still leaning
> towards 1U X 19".  The main reason, as
> several folks pointed out, is to increase market share. This would *not*
be
> a MOTM branded product. But
> I think that it could wind up at places like Sweetwater and generate
> revenue. The reason is that my
> DSP consulting job is winding down, and I need some more $$$ to fund R&D
for
> next year (like the Sequencer!).
> 
> In about 10 days I'll have some sound samples..shound give Bob Moog
concern!

> <hint hint>.
> 
> Paul S.

In a message dated 11/24/99 8:42:26 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>OH, OH, this sounds great.  I guess the main thing I can thing to use a
>VC
>Lag would be portamento.  Are their others?


Basic processing of any CV source. For example: if used at the output of a 
S/H, a lag processor would act like a portamento (as you suggested), but if 
used at the input of a S/H, the module can be used to keep the step size 
within a small voltage range (time dependent), but have no effect on 
portamento. And as Paul said, as a (cheesy) LPF.

>You asked for a vote on the light, if ON when bypassed, I vote RED. 
>Although the two color thing would be REALLY cool with green = active and
>red = bypassed.  <grin>  Would it be possible for the bypass to function
>two ways - one as you described but also going into bypass or active when
>a
>certain DC voltage is exceed when applied to the tip connection of the
>same
>jack ?


Or maybe. the module is bypassed when the tip voltage goes to ground, else it 
stays active??? I say just one LED.

>It also seems to me that it would be useful to be able to control "initial
>controls" even when using CV.   Help me if I am thinking wrong, but it
>looks like you could by putting the CV into the "UP & DOWN" input and using
>the separate "UP" and "DOWN" pots for initial control.

That CV Rise/Fall control is crying out for a reversing attenuator!!!!
JB
It really is!

synth1@... writes:

>>LED - is ON when BYPASSed (need to pick Red or Green)<<

Sounds backwards to me.  Shouldn't the LED be on when ENABLED.  That kind of 
represents turning the module on, as it were.  However the other suggestion 
of a combo red/green would make this a moot point.

>>Another way to look at it is to have a GREEN LED for when VC lag is 
ACTIVE.<<

Just noticed that your above comment is saying the same thing I said.

>>Maybe GREEN/RED is OK, it's just the little devils are so $$$.<<

30 cents is expensive?

-Elhardt

> > jlarryh@... writes:
> > I guess the main thing I can thing to use a
> > VC Lag would be portamento.  Are their others?
> 
> From: JWBarlow@...
> Basic processing of any CV source. For example:
> if used at the output of a S/H, a lag processor would
> act like a portamento (as you suggested), but if 
> used at the input of a S/H, the module can be used
> to keep the step size within a small voltage range 
> (time dependent), but have no effect on 
> portamento. And as Paul said, as a (cheesy) LPF.

Thanks JB and Paul.  I will have to invest some time thinking about "how"
the LPF would work.  What else is this puppy good for ?
 
> From:  jlarryh@... :
> You asked for a vote on the light, if ON when bypassed,
> I vote RED.  Although the two color thing would be REALLY
> cool with green = active and red = bypassed.  <grin> 

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> Another way to look at it is to have a GREEN LED for when
> VC lag is ACTIVE. Maybe GREEN/RED is OK, it's just the
>  little devils are so $$$. Actually cheaper to do a '700 style
>  with 1 Red and 1 Green.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> I say just one LED.

I have to agree with Stooge JB here.  One LED would be preferable.  If no
one wants the dual color, then I say go with just one also.  I just thought
two color would be cool and another place where it seems to "fit",  ala
320.

> From:  jlarryh@... :
> Would it be possible for the bypass to function two ways
> - one as you described but also going into bypass or active
> when a certain DC voltage is exceed when applied to the tip
> connection of the same jack ?

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> I can set the switch point to like below 0.5V = bypass. Stooge
> Larry is ratcheting up the features and price. He needs a job at HP.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> Or maybe. the module is bypassed when the tip voltage goes to
> ground, else it  stays active???

Whatever.  I don't want to drive up the price.  But it just seems natural
that this input jack should be able to be used for either a switch input or
voltage input. (voltage input as a switch).  That way those of use using
MIDI2CV converters could assign some controller to a aux voltage output and
use that output voltage to key portamento on and off without having to
dedicate a foot switch.  However, I think the footswitch feature is great
when MIDI is not in the picture.

> > From:  jlarryh@... :
> > It also seems to me that it would be useful to be able
> >  to control "initial controls" even when using CV.   Help
> > me if I am thinking wrong, but it looks like you could by
> > putting the CV into the "UP & DOWN" input and using
> > the separate "UP" and "DOWN" pots for initial control.

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> Correct! It's just into the summing amps.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> That CV Rise/Fall control is crying out for a
> reversing attenuator!!!!   It really is!

Yes, I agree John.  Just that one input (rise&fall).  Like the FM1 input is
done on the MOTM-420 ?  That really seems like a cool idea to me.  That way
you would could use positive or negative going envelopes or whatever
without being concerned about the polarity.  John, you are the man !!

LH

> >>Maybe GREEN/RED is OK, it's just the little devils are so $$$.<<
> 
> 30 cents is expensive?

Not the version I buy with a lens assembly and pre-wired leads. Try $5.40

Paul S.

RE: the bypass light - don't really care. Green = ON, I guess.

RE: bypass jack - should be able to bypass with a gate signal as well as a
footswitch. Nothing plugged in should mean it's active.

RE: Up & down rate pots - 2 ways to go here are that pots switch to become
attenuators on the jax, or pots remain offset level and jax are
unattenuated. I'd probably prefer the latter, although it's a close call.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 10:18 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] No more guessing!
>
>
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> > You asked for a vote on the light, if ON when bypassed, I vote RED.
> > Although the two color thing would be REALLY cool with green =
> active and
> > red = bypassed.  <grin>  Would it be possible for the bypass to function
> > two ways - one as you described but also going into bypass or
> active when
> a
> > certain DC voltage is exceed when applied to the tip connection of the
> same
> > jack ?
>
>
> Another way to look at it is to have a GREEN LED for when VC lag
> is ACTIVE.
> Maybe GREEN/RED is OK, it's just the little devils are so $$$. Actually
> cheaper to do a '700 style with 1 Red and 1 Green.
>
>
> I can set the switch point to like below 0.5V = bypass. Stooge Larry is
> ratcheting up the features
> and price. He needs a job at HP.
>
> >
> > Seems to me like the "shape" could actually be varied to lots of other
> > extremes by attaching an EG output to  one of the voltage
> inputs.  If I am
> > thinking right, using the negative output of the a 800 seems like you
> could
> > even get reverse-expo effects.
>
>
> Now you're cookin'! See how fun modulars can be??!?
>
> >
> > It also seems to me that it would be useful to be able to
> control "initial
> > controls" even when using CV.   Help me if I am thinking wrong, but it
> > looks like you could by putting the CV into the "UP & DOWN" input and
> using
> > the separate "UP" and "DOWN" pots for initial control.
>
> Correct! It's just into the summing amps.
>
> >
> > Someone PLEASE explain to me how this module would be used with audio as
> an
> > input.  What are other uses other than portamento & glide effects?
>
>
> Low-pass filter, of course! What if the input was a
> LFO....hmmm.......tasty!
>
> > Now, when should I tell her to expect it?  And, the one million dollar
> > question...... will it be soon enough so I can give my wife MOTM for
> > Christmas?  Now, THAT would be a dream gig !!   <grin>
>
> In Jan. December is DSP month for me. And not much MOTM'ing happening from
> Dec.20 to Jan. 4th.
> Need *some* geetar time! I got my Line6 POD today! I sound like
> Santana! <OK
> when he was 8 years old>
>
> >
> > Concerning 1U x 19" phaser.... GIMME !!    MOTM branded or not,
> it's going
> > in my rack.  I have really been wanting a good phaser and saddened that
> > such a great looking MF product is in that "pedal-like" format.
>
>
> Phaser? Who said "make the Moogerfooger 12-stage look like a toy" phaser?
> Me??!?
>
> Paul S.
>
> >

In a message dated 11/29/99 10:43:45 AM, daveb@... writes:

>RE: Up & down rate pots - 2 ways to go here are that pots switch to become
>attenuators on the jax, or pots remain offset level and jax are
>unattenuated. I'd probably prefer the latter, although it's a close call.

Once again, Bradley is WRONG! 

You need one initial rate pot for each (rise and fall) segment of the glide. 
You also need VC jacks and pots (attenuators), as well as a common VC jack 
(controlling both rise and fall times simultaneously) which MUST have a 
reversing attenuator. I would think this (and on VC EGs) is an even more 
important place for the reversing attenuator than the VCF (which I really 
like as well).

JB

In a message dated 11/29/99 9:16:06 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>> From: JWBarlow@...

>> You need one initial rate pot for each (rise and fall) segment of the
>glide. 
>> You also need VC jacks and pots (attenuators), as well as a common VC
>jack 
>> (controlling both rise and fall times simultaneously) which MUST have
>a 
>> reversing attenuator. I would think this (and on VC EGs) is an even more
>> important place for the reversing attenuator than the VCF (which I really
>> like as well).

How about this: one rise pot and one fall pot (both initial times) and one 
reversing attenuator for a CV input as well as two unattenuated CV inputs 
(for rise and fall times of course). This is the basic layout of (one half 
of) the Serge DSG when used as a VC lag processor. My thought was the MOTM 
module might benefit from some additional front panel features as Dave 
Bradley had mentioned in his reference to a "studley" VC lag processor. 

My continuing references to the reversing attenuator for the VC Lag module 
are due to my reliance on that pot on the DSG -- just swinging it from about 
the 1 O'clock to 11 O'clock positions can dramatically change the personality 
of a patch and the direction one takes as a result. Of course one could have 
a separate reversing attenuator and patch it in to see if it is useful in 
that particular circumstance, and then unpatch it and patch in the proper CV 
(positive or negative) and use it in another place. In my experience, this 
would be one of the most advantageous places for a reversing attenuator.

JB

> >In a message dated 11/29/99 10:43:45 AM, daveb@... writes:
> >RE: Up & down rate pots - 2 ways to go here are that pots switch to
become
> >attenuators on the jax, or pots remain offset level and jax are
> >unattenuated. I'd probably prefer the latter, although it's a close
call.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> Once again, Bradley is WRONG! 
> You need one initial rate pot for each (rise and fall) segment of the
glide. 
> You also need VC jacks and pots (attenuators), as well as a common VC
jack 
> (controlling both rise and fall times simultaneously) which MUST have a 
> reversing attenuator. I would think this (and on VC EGs) is an even more 
> important place for the reversing attenuator than the VCF (which I really

> like as well).

1. Once again JWB is only 1/2 right <stooge snicker>.  I'll go with Dave
here "prefer the latter" that the "UP Rate and DOWN Rate" pots remain
offset level and jax unattenuated.  At some point we have to say "OK, I
need a reversing attenuator" as a separate module so that every single
module that Paul makes does not have to have DC attenuation as part of the
design.  I can't see two pots on every MOTM module DC input, one for
initial and one for attenuation.

2. Now, to argue with myself (since I know everyone else will chime in
too).  Looking at the former MOTM modules (like the 410 for example) it
seems that initial pots do become attenuators once a CV in inserted.  so,
maybe from a consistency of application, that is the right answer (Dave
said it was a close call).

3. Now, to support John's weak argument, some VC inputs do deserve BOTH
attenuation and initial (PWM on the VCO).

I think an argument can be made for any of the three. If I had to pick, 3
would be the most control assuming the two extra pots don't expand the size
(knowing they will already significantly expand the cost).  However,
picking between 1 and 2 I would go with Dave B's close call and pick # 1.

Since John may feel picked on right now, I like the idea that the single UP
& DOWN pot is a reverse attenuator CV when CV source is plugged.

Larry (don't call me a diplomatic stooge) Hendry

> From: JWBarlow@...
> My thought was the MOTM module might benefit
> from some additional front panel features as Dave 
> Bradley had mentioned in his reference to a "studley"
> VC lag processor. 

As always, I vote for the "studley" version.
 
> My continuing references to the reversing attenuator for the VC Lag
module 
> are due to my reliance on that pot on the DSG -- just swinging it from
about 
> the 1 O'clock to 11 O'clock positions can dramatically change the
personality 
> of a patch and the direction one takes as a result. Of course one could
have 
> a separate reversing attenuator and patch it in to see if it is useful in

> that particular circumstance, and then unpatch it and patch in the proper
CV 
> (positive or negative) and use it in another place. In my experience,
this 
> would be one of the most advantageous places for a reversing attenuator.

You are no doubt correct John.  I think that would indeed be a cool feature
on the UP & DOWN CV control.  And, if you insist, on the others too.  :)

LH

JWBarlow@... bleated:
>
> Once again, Bradley is WRONG!
>
> You need one initial rate pot for each (rise and fall) segment of
> the glide.
> You also need VC jacks and pots (attenuators), as well as a
> common VC jack
> (controlling both rise and fall times simultaneously) which MUST have a
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Wrong???

Moi???

Why you, I oughtta...

I was merely trying to show mercy to Paul, who was moaning about Larry
jacking the price of the Lag module up to $500.

Moe

> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
> 
> I was merely trying to show mercy to Paul, who was moaning about Larry
> jacking the price of the Lag module up to $500.
> 
> Moe

In your words:

Moi???
Why you, I oughtta...

I ask for one cool LED and all the sudden I am responsible for a 300%
escalation in the Lag processor price?
Nyuck, Nyuck.

Stooge Larry

In a message dated 99-11-30 00:09:11 EST, you write:

<<  DSG  >>




larry,
another dsg fan........IMHO, possibly the most versatile synth module ever 
produced by ANY company! i miss mine....... :^(
best,
dave