MOTM

Some of you that are on the Oakley mailing list have seen Tony's recent 
announcement that he is selling off all the current stock of modules and ceasing 
production. This is based on 2 things: economics and RoHS compliance (which 
takes effect July 1 2006).

For those of you not familiar with RoHS....in a nutshell it's the restriction of 
importing electronics that contain "harmful" stuff, and lead is one of them.

MOTM has lead in 3 'areas': the pc board, the components and the solder itself.

PCB - the pc boards are 'coated' with a very thin layer of tin-lead solder (over 
the copper traces). So, to be RoHS compliant, you can do 1 of 2 things: use 
gold-plating or use a form of tin. I am in the process of getting quotes for 
both to see what the impact is. Gold "flashing" has been around 30 years, that's 
no big deal except gold plating itself is a *butt nasty* operation and many pc 
board suppliers charge accordingly. There are several tin-based pcb 
technologies, but some of them have a definite 'shelf-life' (there is a finite 
time from when you unseal the boards to soldering, like say 2 weeks).

COMPONENTS - Currently, 99% of the MOTM parts that are on the pc board contain 
lead in some form or another, mainly in the solder-coating of IC leads and the 
wires on the resistors/caps. It remains to be seen what through-hole parts that 
*are* RoHS compliant will be offered after the July 1 2006 deadline AND at what 
cost. Today, over 70% of SMT parts are compliant, moving to 100% by December. 
What is interesting is all the pots and switches MOTM uses are compliant, but I 
need to check on the jacks.

What does this mean going forward? The honest answer is: right now, I don't 
know! If I can get the parts in RoHS, then maybe nothing at all. But what if say 
Analog Devices doesn't offer the MAT02EH pair used in the VCO? Do I redesign the 
pcb to accommodate?

SOLDER - well obviously this is an issue :)  Kester and other companies are 
going full-tilt-boogie trying to formulate 'no lead' solder. The main problem in 
the solder is that the 'chemistry' is HIGHLY sensitive to lead contamination. 
Meaning, if you have a leaded part and use non-lead solder on it, the lead 
'leeches out' of the part and the solder joint forms tiny cracks. Joy :(

What does this mean for not just MOTM, but everyone (Doepfer, Modcan, .com, 
etc). Here are the possibilities:

1) don't offer products for sale to the EU
2) find through-hole parts that are compliant, change the pcb and use non-lead 
solder
3) reboot and offer SMT product only (a la not kits)

As far as what MOTM plans are, as of this very nanosecond:

a) I'm not changing anything until June, 2006. For all I know, the EU may just 
say "Hey, we were just fooling around!" So, don't panic, don't sell off your 
gear.

b) I'm going to carefully keep track of the parts situation. You CAN solder RoHS 
parts with lead solder, so every colander quarter I will see if RoHS is offered 
in say TL072s and if so, start shipping them. The resistors and caps are what I 
have to check. It may be, for example, that 1% resistors are offered so all the 
resistors in the kits would switch over to 1% which some of you uber-DIYers do 
anyway :)  I may change transistors types. I may change jack vendors. I may 
offer the wire without the "dipped" leads.

c) around April-May of next year, I will have to decide what to *really* do. It 
may boil down to: do I keep the kits as they are and abandon the EU users? Do I 
kill kits altogether and offer SMT, assembled versions only? I can't do both 
because assembled modules have never exceeded 7% of sales.

I suspect both Doepfer and AS will go to 100% SMT: they really have no choice. 
So will Bob Moog.

Yep, being in the synth business sure can be 'fun' at times :(

Meanwhile, the month of July is my R&D month. I will dribble out some assembled 
modules (mostly my tech is soldering the pc boards to allow 100% of the backlog 
to ship by Sept). I really need to 'stop' and get the 650, the 600 and the 485 
out the door.

I hope that Tony can find a way to get back in the game.

Paul S.

On Saturday 18 June 2005 06:17, Paul Schreiber wrote:

> c) around April-May of next year, I will have to decide
> what to *really* do. It may boil down to: do I keep the
> kits as they are and abandon the EU users?

Being from the EU, the above thought gives me the shivers 
big time! If I read this correctly, by june 2006, there is 
a chance that there's no way to get a MOTM module shipped 
to the EU, kit or completed module, right? 

I understand the problem of course, and respect whatever 
you'll do, but what this really means is that I actually 
should not invest in my MOTM until 2006, and if things go 
bad for me by june 2006, sell the 20 modules I own. Ugh... 
And the thing was just getting shape. :(

Burning question for you Paul: how much of your MOTM income 
is based on EU sales? Are they worth it to do all that 
painful work?

- Robert

Okay, I have cooled down a little. That was a bad way to 
wake up. ;)

I wont sell, the stuff is just too good for that. 

But I had big plans for the future with MOTM, expanding to 
40, maybe 60 modules (3 cabinets) at my own slow pace 
(provided that Paul drives carefully ;). 

But even if MOTM makes the move to ready-built modules only, 
using SMT, I may not be able to continue growing my beloved 
MOTM, simply because I can't afford the higher prices. And 
I'll miss building the kits...

So what I'll do is add that 650 (MIDI converter, on order) 
and consider this MOTM cabinet a complete, closed synth. I 
won't build that second cabinet this summer holiday, that 
will have to wait until we get a green light, next year. 
Sure hope everything will be fine then, but as I said, I 
really understand if EU sales would simply be stopped. 
Thanks EU! 

What are my alternatives? Hmmm....
Move to the States? Or order and receive, say, 40 MOTM kits 
before june 2006? LOL! :)

- Robert

well the 'good' news is that the way things are going there might not
actually be an EU in June 2006

cheers
paul

> Some of you that are on the Oakley mailing list have seen Tony's recent
> announcement that he is selling off all the current stock of modules and
> ceasing
> production. This is based on 2 things: economics and RoHS compliance
> (which
> takes effect July 1 2006).

I am really sorry to hear this. Tony is a good guy and I enjoy my two Oakley
modules very much.

> a) I'm not changing anything until June, 2006. For all I know, the EU may
> just
> say "Hey, we were just fooling around!" 

This is not entirely impossible, given the current somewhat shaky relations
in the EU.

> It may be, for example, that 1% resistors are offered so
> all the
> resistors in the kits would switch over to 1% which some of you uber-
> DIYers do
> anyway 

FWIW, I ordered parts from Mouser about a month ago. All of the 1% resistors
were marked as RoHS compliant on the invoice.

> I can't do
> both
> because assembled modules have never exceeded 7% of sales.

7%? Is that a typo? 93% are kits? I'm surprised.

--Adam

> >
> FWIW, I ordered (resistors) from Mouser about a month ago. All of the 1% 
> resistors
> were marked as RoHS compliant on the invoice.

This is what I am thinking will happen.

Also, it is quite possible that I can *still ship kits* but *without solder*. I 
suggest to the EU folks to get 1-2 rolls of both Kester 245 no-clean and 331 
organic. 1 roll of each will solder 50-60 modules :)

In fact, I will venture that at this point in time, this is the *most likely* 
scenario. There will *most likely* be a price increase across the board.

So, buying MOTM kits *before* the July 1 deadline is better than a "I'll wait 
and see" attitude.

>
> 7%? Is that a typo? 93% are kits? I'm surprised.
>

This is a correct figure.

Paul S.

>Gold "flashing" has been around 30 years, that's no big deal except 
 >gold plating itself is a *butt nasty* operation and many pc board 
 >suppliers charge accordingly. There are several tin-based pcb 
 >technologies, but some of them have a definite 'shelf-life' (there is 
a >finite time from when you unseal the boards to soldering, like say 2 
 >weeks)

The gold plating and RoHS compliance have also currently created all 
sorts of problems due to mixing technologies during this transition 
period. At work we're currently having to remove a whole mess of gold 
plated parts, dip the leads, and replace them because of a gold 
embrittlement issue that can lead to bad joints a few years down the 
road. Time will have to be allowed past the July date for the learning 
curve and tooling up and getting the right materials in place after the 
learning curve. Lead was sooo easy :-(   (But on the other hand, my 
Father in Law ended up dying from Parkinson's, they say, due to the 
amount of lead he handled over his lifetime, he was a printer).
Take care, PQ

> Also, it is quite possible that I can *still ship kits* but *without
solder*. I
> suggest to the EU folks to get 1-2 rolls of both Kester 245 no-clean and
331
> organic. 1 roll of each will solder 50-60 modules :)

I have bought 5 big rolls of Sn60Pb38Cu2 for myself a year ago, and I've
suggested
that we buy 50 for our lab at work. (Of course the _production_ is busy
switching
to lead-free processes; they have no choice.) As long as I have a choice, I
won't touch
the lead-free stuff. The _good_ solder joints look like bad (cold)
connections with the
new stuff, and it's hard to get used to this.

Hey, if you're lucky you might be able to stock up for cheap when the shops
must
get rid of it before it becomes illegal. (;->)

JH.

>Also, it is quite possible that I can *still ship kits* but *without
>solder*. I
>suggest to the EU folks to get 1-2 rolls of both Kester 245 no-clean and 331
>organic. 1 roll of each will solder 50-60 modules :)
>
>In fact, I will venture that at this point in time, this is the *most likely*
>scenario. There will *most likely* be a price increase across the board.
>
>So, buying MOTM kits *before* the July 1 deadline is better than a "I'll wait
>and see" attitude.

It's my (flawed) understanding of this that you should be able to get a
low-volume waiver for your assembled modules but it might require the
presence of an EU dealer. Apparently the latter helps with the paperwork.

A little bird tells me that Bob Williams, the owner of Analogue Systems,
already has a waiver of some sort...


The impending death of through-hole, no-lead solder, Apple switching to
Intel--I can't take much more upheaval right now.

-- 

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

Wonder why lead is banned:

http://www.newark.com/services/rohs/lead.html

In short, it is because after your MOTM module goes into a landfill, the 
lead could leach into drinking water and hence could poison people.  PC 
boards have a relatively short lifetime before being scrapped.  (Synth 
boards have some of the longest life spans, no doubt.)  It makes you 
wonder whether it would be more efficient to seal the landfills than to 
change the manufacturing process in thousands of manufacturing plants 
around the globe.  Landfills leach plenty of other bad stuff besides 
lead, too.

Are we hobbyists in danger from lead poisoning because we solder our own 
boards?  It is a quantitative question about how much lead might enter 
our bodies from soldering.  I suspect the answer for the amount of 
soldering most of use do is: very little. Some of what I have read 
regarding lead solder danger refers to solder in plumbing or in cans of 
food -- in proximity to a consumable substance.  It is an ecological 
bio-hazard problem the ROHS is directed at.  I use a fan to blow the 
smoke away when I solder.  But this ROHS directive is aiming elsewhere 
than my soldering station.

It is too bad that such big governmental directives targetting large 
manufacturers, who produce the goods in pollution quantity, also impact 
small businesses like Oakley and SynthTech.  Since it really is a 
quantitative issue, the laws could provide exemption for low-volume 
manufacturers.

-Richard Brewster

PQ wrote:

> >Gold "flashing" has been around 30 years, that's no big deal except 
> >gold plating itself is a *butt nasty* operation and many pc board 
> >suppliers charge accordingly. There are several tin-based pcb 
> >technologies, but some of them have a definite 'shelf-life' (there is 
>a >finite time from when you unseal the boards to soldering, like say 2 
> >weeks)
>
>The gold plating and RoHS compliance have also currently created all 
>sorts of problems due to mixing technologies during this transition 
>period. At work we're currently having to remove a whole mess of gold 
>plated parts, dip the leads, and replace them because of a gold 
>embrittlement issue that can lead to bad joints a few years down the 
>road. Time will have to be allowed past the July date for the learning 
>curve and tooling up and getting the right materials in place after the 
>learning curve. Lead was sooo easy :-(   (But on the other hand, my 
>Father in Law ended up dying from Parkinson's, they say, due to the 
>amount of lead he handled over his lifetime, he was a printer).
>Take care, PQ
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>

Does anybody know where I can get some THAT2180 VCA
chips (in the US)?

I tried to find them at mouser, digikey, newark and
jameco - no luck....

Many thanks in advance,

Dino




		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

Errr.www.thatcorp.com :)

Ask nice for a free sample.


Paul S.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dino Leone" <d_p_leone@...>
To: "'MOTM litserv'" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: [motm] THAT2180 chip source?


> Does anybody know where I can get some THAT2180 VCA
> chips (in the US)?
> 
> I tried to find them at mouser, digikey, newark and
> jameco - no luck....
> 
> Many thanks in advance,
> 
> Dino
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Sports 
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Hi Paul,

errr... you mean a sample of 8 chips?  Hmm... I could
try, of course!

With Best Wishes,

Dino




--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

> Errr.www.thatcorp.com :)
> 
> Ask nice for a free sample.
> 
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dino Leone" <d_p_leone@...>
> To: "'MOTM litserv'" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:31 PM
> Subject: [motm] THAT2180 chip source?
> 
> 
> > Does anybody know where I can get some THAT2180
> VCA
> > chips (in the US)?
> > 
> > I tried to find them at mouser, digikey, newark
> and
> > jameco - no luck....
> > 
> > Many thanks in advance,
> > 
> > Dino
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> ____________________________________________________
> 
> > Yahoo! Sports 
> > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy
> Football 
> > http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >    motm-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> 



		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

> errr... you mean a sample of 8 chips?  Hmm... I could
> try, of course!
>


THAT has no distribution channel (like Mouser). They will sell you 8 parts over 
the phone.

Paul S.

On 2005-06-18 19:31 -0700, Dino Leone wrote:

> Does anybody know where I can get some THAT2180 VCA
> chips (in the US)?
> 
> I tried to find them at mouser, digikey, newark and
> jameco - no luck....

Contact Dave Forsyth ("polar" plus "is30" at "ncx." plus "com").
He has a group order pending. For 8 pieces, that should be around
5.50 USD each plus shipping. Price down to 5.00 USD for 10 pieces,
4.50 USD for 20 pieces, etc.

-- 
Andr\ufffd Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Do not use this account for regular correspondence.
See the URL above for contact information.