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Normalizing a MOTM. How?

Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-11 by Robert van der Kamp

Hi all,

to reduce cable clutter, and to improve the patching speed
for 'standard' synth sounds, I'm thinking of normalizing
some of the most obvious routes using the NC connectors of
the jack. I'm thinking of stuff like:

- MIDI CV out -> Larry's 822.
- '822 -> 1V/Oct of '300.
- MIDI Gate out -> EG1 and EG2
- LFO -> '300 PWM

Did anyone ever try that? Does it work, and do you still get
the full freedom when you want to overrule the default
routes?

I'm also interested in what kind of cable was used to
connect the modules. Did you use some kind of connector in
the cable to easily disconnect the modules so that they can
be removed from the cabinet?

Any info welcome.

- Robert

RE: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-11 by J. Larry Hendry

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert van der Kamp [mailto:robnet@...]
to reduce cable clutter, and to improve the patching speed
for 'standard' synth sounds, I'm thinking of normalizing
some of the most obvious routes using the NC connectors of
the jack. I'm thinking of stuff like:

> - MIDI CV out -> Larry's 822.

Robert, This will work fine. Use the TOP switch contact on the "A IN" on
the 822. The "B" in is already normalled from the A if not jacked if you
built it to my instructions. So, only one connection from the MIDI CV is
needed. Your only problem will be if you want to use 2 outputs from the
MIDI CV to the 822. You will need to remove the "normalled" connection from
A down to the "B IN" TOP switch contact.

> - '822 -> 1V/Oct of '300.

I see no problem with that. The 300 has a jumper from the TOP to BEVEL on
the 1/v octave jack. You will need to remove that before you connect your
822 output to the TOP.

> - MIDI Gate out -> EG1 and EG2

Same deal to the TOP on the gate jack. There is no "normal" connection on
the gate switch.

> - LFO -> '300 PWM

This one looks good too as far as I can see. But, you have to predetermine
which LFO wave you want as the default.

> Did anyone ever try that? Does it work, and do you still get the full
freedom when you want to overrule the default routes?

Looks to me like you retain full override capability.

> I'm also interested in what kind of cable was used to connect the modules.

Id use RG-174 coax.

> Did you use some kind of connector in the cable to easily disconnect the
modules so that they can be removed from the cabinet?

That's a good idea IMO. Any decent connector should do. I'd opt for
something light and non conductive on the outside. I'd probably use molex.

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-11 by Sikorsky

> to reduce cable clutter, and to improve the patching speed
> for 'standard' synth sounds, I'm thinking of normalizing
> some of the most obvious routes using the NC connectors of
> the jack. I'm thinking of stuff like:

hello all,
i was thinking along these lines a couple of years ago, but came to the
following conclusions

1) - i've gone for relatively small cabinets, and i'm addicted to my modular
which means that modules move around within my collection of cabinets with
relative frequency
2) - i'm pretty quick at patching a simple mono-synth, and the task of
having to re-patch from scratch keep my sounds fresh rather than preset -
though see note 3
3) - i've been able to get to a stage where i can leave a mono-synth patched
up for weeks on end, and work around it for additional sounds i require -
all i have to do is swap filters

hope that helps..?
cheers
paul

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-12 by Richard Brewster

I think Larry Hendry did a good job answering the 'how' question. As to
the 'why' question, I agree with Paul. The only reason to "normalize"
patches is to achieve some preset configurations. But normal
connections within a full modular goes away from total modularity toward
the direction, ultimately, of a wholly prepatched monosynth. Of course
we want both convenience and flexibility, which often come into conflict
with each other. Hence engineering. Some thoughts:

1) Frequent use of normal patches could get you stuck in habits of using
the synth and you could miss great discoveries that lie before you.
Aways try to find new and interesting patches. It's almost too easy to
make great sound using standard tricks of the trade with 'normal'
patches, whether prewired or just plain patched. To me a modular is
about exploration and discovery and I like to keep pushing at the
frontier. Is normalizing a MIDI output to a VCO 1V/OCT input a handy
shortcut, or is it a slippery slope to conformity? I guess you know my
feelings about it. But then I don't use a keyboard, so I don't need
that shortcut.

2) If you put normal internal connections between modules, I think it's
important to implement this via connectors on the backs of the modules.
That way you can still easily move modules around in the cabinets. And
you can change your mind more easily about where you want the normal
connections to go. I have not done this sort of normal connecting, but
it's the only way I would consider doing it.

3) Normalling can be applied creatively within a single panel design.
Several of the Blacet products feature a panel unit with a main
functional module plus internal supporting modules such as an LFO,
envelope follower or generator. These control sources are normalled
into VC inputs to the main module that can be overridden by an external
patch. Sometimes these control sources are available as outputs, too.
The other end of the design spectrum is the Synthesizers.com approach
where every physical module is limited to its own special function, so
not much can be internally normalled. MOTM seems to lie somewhere in
the middle: take the MOTM-380 as an example of a clever normal
connection scheme with overriding (it has a built-in LFO mixer). When I
design modules and panels, I look for opportunities to separate out
sub-modules and make them available independently by panel jacks and
normal connections between them or by the addition of panel switches for
routing, as on my Mixer-Comparator. I want both convenience and
flexibility, of course. Engineering is name we give to the mode in
which we try to answer this dilemma.

My conclusion is that normal connections are fine, providing they are
easily overridden, don't compromise physical modularity, and don't lead
to habits that ultimately limit the power of the synth.

-Richard Brewster

Sikorsky wrote:

>>to reduce cable clutter, and to improve the patching speed
>>for 'standard' synth sounds, I'm thinking of normalizing
>>some of the most obvious routes using the NC connectors of
>>the jack. I'm thinking of stuff like:
>>
>>
>
>hello all,
>i was thinking along these lines a couple of years ago, but came to the
>following conclusions
>
>1) - i've gone for relatively small cabinets, and i'm addicted to my modular
>which means that modules move around within my collection of cabinets with
>relative frequency
>2) - i'm pretty quick at patching a simple mono-synth, and the task of
>having to re-patch from scratch keep my sounds fresh rather than preset -
>though see note 3
>3) - i've been able to get to a stage where i can leave a mono-synth patched
>up for weeks on end, and work around it for additional sounds i require -
>all i have to do is swap filters
>
>hope that helps..?
>cheers
>paul
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by Robert van der Kamp

On Saturday 11 December 2004 17:49, J. Larry Hendry wrote:

> > - MIDI CV out -> Larry's 822.
>
> Robert, This will work fine. Use the TOP switch contact
> on the "A IN" on the 822. The "B" in is already
> normalled from the A if not jacked if you built it to my
> instructions. So, only one connection from the MIDI CV
> is needed. Your only problem will be if you want to use
> 2 outputs from the MIDI CV to the 822. You will need to
> remove the "normalled" connection from A down to the "B
> IN" TOP switch contact.

Ah I see. Good thinking. Indeed, the '650 is on order. Four
outputs then, which nicely match with the 4 inputs of the
two '822s I have here. :)

>
> > - '822 -> 1V/Oct of '300.
>
> I see no problem with that. The 300 has a jumper from
> the TOP to BEVEL on the 1/v octave jack. You will need
> to remove that before you connect your 822 output to the
> TOP.

Got it.

> > Did you use some kind of connector in the cable to
> > easily disconnect the modules so that they can be
> > removed from the cabinet?
>
> That's a good idea IMO. Any decent connector should do.
> I'd opt for something light and non conductive on the
> outside. I'd probably use molex.

Okay. Thanks!

Robert

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by Robert van der Kamp

On Saturday 11 December 2004 17:55, Sikorsky wrote:

> hello all,
> i was thinking along these lines a couple of years ago,
> but came to the following conclusions
>
> 1) - i've gone for relatively small cabinets, and i'm
> addicted to my modular which means that modules move
> around within my collection of cabinets with relative
> frequency

Same here. They've seen all corners of my cabinet. ;)
But that's one reason why I was thinking of using connectors
for the normalled routes.

> 2) - i'm pretty quick at patching a simple mono-synth,
> and the task of having to re-patch from scratch keep my
> sounds fresh rather than preset - though see note 3
> 3) - i've been able to get to a stage where i can leave a
> mono-synth patched up for weeks on end, and work around
> it for additional sounds i require - all i have to do is
> swap filters

I see your points. I'm also pretty quick at patching a mono
synth, but I still get the cable clutter from very obvious
routes. Getting rid of those gives me more room for the
other, more interesting routes. As long as I can always
overrule the default routes, I think I'm save.

The only danger I see is that the normalled routes may force
me into making the same kind of patch all the time, and
that's what kept me from doing it. The trick is - I think -
to only select very obvious routes for this job.

Robert

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by Robert van der Kamp

On Sunday 12 December 2004 04:21, Richard Brewster wrote:

> Some thoughts:
>
> 1) Frequent use of normal patches could get you stuck in
> habits of using the synth and you could miss great
> discoveries that lie before you. Aways try to find new
> and interesting patches. It's almost too easy to make
> great sound using standard tricks of the trade with
> 'normal' patches, whether prewired or just plain patched.
> To me a modular is about exploration and discovery and I
> like to keep pushing at the frontier. Is normalizing a
> MIDI output to a VCO 1V/OCT input a handy shortcut, or is
> it a slippery slope to conformity? I guess you know my
> feelings about it. But then I don't use a keyboard, so I
> don't need that shortcut.

I totally agree, there's a danger. I use my MOTM rig for two
kinds of things. One of them is making freak sounds,
totally free, nutty stuff. That's why I got a modular in
the first place. The second use as a mono synth. I've never
heard such a great sounding synth before, so I use it more
and more in my songs. I'm trying to make work more simple
when building that monosynth patch for the Nth time. But if
normalizing takes away from my freedom/creativity, the
default routes go out.


>
> 2) If you put normal internal connections between
> modules, I think it's important to implement this via
> connectors on the backs of the modules. That way you can
> still easily move modules around in the cabinets. And
> you can change your mind more easily about where you want
> the normal connections to go. I have not done this sort
> of normal connecting, but it's the only way I would
> consider doing it.

I came up with the same idea. I'm thinking of using short
pieces of wire with female connectors, soldered to each
module that has a normalled input/output, and use longer
pieces with male connectors on both ends to actually
connect them. This allows me to move the modules around
with minimal cable clutter in the cabinet.

Not sure though if two connectors, or a long piece of cable
to start with, affect the quality of the link. If quality
is an issue I'll simply forget about the whole idea.


> 3) Normalling can be applied creatively within a single
> panel design. Several of the Blacet products feature a
> panel unit with a main functional module plus internal
> supporting modules such as an LFO, envelope follower or
> generator. These control sources are normalled into VC
> inputs to the main module that can be overridden by an
> external patch. Sometimes these control sources are
> available as outputs, too. The other end of the design
> spectrum is the Synthesizers.com approach where every
> physical module is limited to its own special function,
> so not much can be internally normalled. MOTM seems to
> lie somewhere in the middle: take the MOTM-380 as an
> example of a clever normal connection scheme with
> overriding (it has a built-in LFO mixer). When I design
> modules and panels, I look for opportunities to separate
> out sub-modules and make them available independently by
> panel jacks and normal connections between them or by the
> addition of panel switches for routing, as on my
> Mixer-Comparator. I want both convenience and
> flexibility, of course. Engineering is name we give to
> the mode in which we try to answer this dilemma.

I understand. I wonder how a combination of a '800 and a
'190 with normalled connections would sell. Of course it
would need a LED to make it a success, heh. ;) I think I
would like it, since I have two pairs of those sitting
together. If all the jacks and pots are still available,
why not?

>
> My conclusion is that normal connections are fine,
> providing they are easily overridden, don't compromise
> physical modularity, and don't lead to habits that
> ultimately limit the power of the synth.

Very true. I guess I'll only find out about the habit
forming by doing it.

Robert

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by Sikorsky

hello all,
this whole subject is very much 'horses for courses' - i still consider my
modular as in the construction phase (since 1999) - though when it settles
down, i may well consider some normalisation. at the moment i tend to use
DIY switching modules, for semi-permanent patching (and great for live use)
i have a pair of two way switches with built in mults permanently connected
to a kenton pro-solo and a roland m181 keyboard as voltage & gate sources

cheers
paul

RE: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by J. Larry Hendry

I don't see how that is any different/worse than a patch cable with a
connector on each end. :-)
LH


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert van der Kamp [mailto:robnet@...]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 3:58 AM

Not sure though if two connectors, or a long piece of cable
to start with, affect the quality of the link. If quality
is an issue I'll simply forget about the whole idea.

Re: [motm] Normalizing a MOTM. How?

2004-12-13 by Robert van der Kamp

On Monday 13 December 2004 14:50, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
> I don't see how that is any different/worse than a patch
> cable with a connector on each end. :-)
> LH

Heh :)

Well I was thinking thick, braided patch cables with
relatively large contact points vs a thin, less shielded,
skinny cable with small connectors.

I know, I know. I should try to think when dealing with
electronics. ;)

- Robert

Stooge cables

2004-12-17 by Neil Bradley

Shameless plug for Larry - His cables kick butt! Don't hesitate to order
them! I got my batch today in the mail - what a great Christmas gift!
Woohoo!!

-->Neil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Bradley "The true axis of evil in America is the brilliance of
Synthcom Systems, Inc. our marketing combined with the stupidity of our
people.." - Bill Maher

RE: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-17 by J. Larry Hendry

Thanks Neil. All the orders except two have been shipped. Those people
have been contacted and their cables will ship on Monday.
Thanks to everyone for buying.
Larry


-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Bradley
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:49 PM
Cc: MOTM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Stooge cables


Shameless plug for Larry - His cables kick butt! Don't hesitate to order
them! I got my batch today in the mail - what a great Christmas gift!
Woohoo!!

-->Neil

RE: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-17 by Adam Schabtach

> Shameless plug for Larry - His cables kick butt! Don't hesitate to order
> them! I got my batch today in the mail - what a great Christmas gift!
> Woohoo!!

I'll second that sentiment, after having just received my third batch of
Stooge Cables.

--Adam

RE: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-18 by Dino Leone

I received my cable order yesterday and have been
drooling over them ever since....

This is definitely Christmas! Those stooge cables are
unbelievable! They're so cool, beautiful and
professional! Anybody using a MOTM system without them
- you're missing something!

Oh damn, I need more of them!!!
Fantastic work stooge Larry!!!!

Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to all the members
of this list! It's a wonderful thing!


Dino


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Re: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-18 by Paul Schreiber

Logo or non-logo??!?

Paul S.
pays for the logo, wants logo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dino Leone" <d_p_leone@...>
To: <MOTM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: [motm] Stooge cables


>
> I received my cable order yesterday and have been
> drooling over them ever since....
>
> This is definitely Christmas! Those stooge cables are
> unbelievable! They're so cool, beautiful and
> professional! Anybody using a MOTM system without them
> - you're missing something!
>
> Oh damn, I need more of them!!!
> Fantastic work stooge Larry!!!!
>
> Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to all the members
> of this list! It's a wonderful thing!
>
>
> Dino
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-18 by Dino Leone

Of course *with* logo!!! That's part of it!

With Best Wishes,

Dino
(drooling over the just-finished MOTM101)




--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

> Logo or non-logo??!?
>
> Paul S.
> pays for the logo, wants logo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dino Leone" <d_p_leone@...>
> To: <MOTM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [motm] Stooge cables
>
>
> >
> > I received my cable order yesterday and have been
> > drooling over them ever since....
> >
> > This is definitely Christmas! Those stooge cables
> are
> > unbelievable! They're so cool, beautiful and
> > professional! Anybody using a MOTM system without
> them
> > - you're missing something!
> >
> > Oh damn, I need more of them!!!
> > Fantastic work stooge Larry!!!!
> >
> > Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to all the
> members
> > of this list! It's a wonderful thing!
> >
> >
> > Dino
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
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Re: [motm] Stooge cables

2004-12-19 by Neil Bradley

> Of course *with* logo!!! That's part of it!

Yeah, me too with my cables, FWIW...

-->Neil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Bradley "The true axis of evil in America is the brilliance of
Synthcom Systems, Inc. our marketing combined with the stupidity of our
people.." - Bill Maher

Stooge cables & Synthesis Technology Logo

2004-12-19 by J. Larry Hendry

Thanks to all for the kind words about cables. For those new to the
process, let me expand on a couple of comments.

I sell two different kinds of cable. One is the translucent cable. ALL of
these cables have the Synth Tech Logo on them. Every time you guys buy one
of those, Paul pays me for the printing charge. He basically saves you each
50 cents a cable. So, say "thanks" Paul. My original intention was to sell
ONLY these cables.

However, some of you wanted solid color cables. And, many of you wanted 3.5
mm connectors. I could not get either at any decent price from the first
vendor. So, I went to a second vendor to supply the second set of cables
which have the printing "wise guy synth" on the heatshrink. The first time
I purchased cables for you guys, over 90% of the cables were Synth Tech
Logo. I could not see paying $100 set up fee for the Synth Tech Logo for
just a few cables from vendor # 2. So, I went with the "wise guy synth"
printing for free.

In the last couple of cable runs, the percentage has been much closer to
half and half of each type. Many more of you than I ever expected are
ordering cables with 3.5 mm plugs on one or both ends. I stayed with the
"wise guy synth" printing because I thought it was a good way to help
differentiate the two types of cable when ordering.

If people would rather see the Synth Tech Logo on both types of cables, and
Paul is willing to shell out extra money for it, I could make them all Synth
Tech Logo. But, that would take a little of the Stooge out of Stooge
cables. And, it doesn't seem right to put Synth Tech logos on cables with
3.5 mm connectors to me since Paul sells nothing with those connectors.

As always, what I supply is driven by the demands of this list.

Larry

Normalizing the '800 GATE input

2005-05-06 by Robert van der Kamp

Okay guys,

I just installed my 3rd '800 and decided it's time to try my
first attempt at normalizing the gate signals from the
MIDI->CV unit to the GATE input of all 3 MOTM-800 modules.

Problem is that the normalized gate signal must be broken
when a jack is inserted in *either* the GATE or the TRIG
input. Right now, if I give the top lug of the '800's GATE
input a normalled gate signal, and insert a jack in the
TRIG input as well, I get (of course) a mixed signal. This
means that the TRIG would be more or less useless when
normalizing the GATE input of an '800.

Is there an easy way to fix this?

Another question. I was advised to use RG-174 coax to carry
the normalled signals. Why? Wouldn't I only be using the
coax part?

Thanks,
Robert