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Panning VCAs

Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Richard Brewster

Hello all,

I have been experimenting with two-channel stereo panning and wanted to 
share my thoughts and get yours.  My 1980's era homebrew Electronotes 
synth used a pair of EN linear VCAs, for which I provided a panning VC 
input.  That did some convenient internal voltage conversion.  All the 
VCAs I use are similar to the MOTM-190 in taking a control voltage in 
the range of zero to +5V, with zero volts equating to zero gain and +5V 
to unity gain.  (I have two 190 VCAs, a modified Blacet Quad VCA/Mixer, 
and a Quad Low Pass Gates.  The latter is yet to be built, but I will 
calibrate it for a five volt control range.)  Let's say we want to pan a 
signal from left to right in stereo.  We need two VCAs, both taking the 
same signal input, with one going to the left and the other the right 
channel output.  We want to smoothly pan from one side to the other and 
back.  Stands to reason that we need one control going from zero to five 
as the other goes from five to zero volts.  Now my first problem is how 
to get a five to zero volt signal, starting from a zero to five volt 
one.  I can't just use an inverter, because the result will be going 
zero to minus five.  I have to add an offset of five volts.  In my synth 
I have several ways to do this.

I modified my MOTM-800 EGs so that the minus output goes from +5 to 
zero.  (Hint:  It takes one resistor.)  So I could use an 800.  But the 
exponential wave shape may not always be what I want for panning.  
Another module I can use is one of my Blacet EG2070s.  These also have + 
and - outputs like the MOTM-800.  The Blacet by design goes from +5V to 
zero on the minus output.   The upper voltage is adjustable, because 
Blacet standard VCA controls are zero to +10V.  I adjust mine for the 
five volt range to match MOTM.  The Blacet EG is a linear device and can 
self-cycle, so I have a pretty good panning controller there.  But what 
if I need my Blacet EG for something else?   A third candidate is my 
super-custom MOTM-OMS-820, which I modified to add a zero to +5V self 
cycle mode.  Again, that is way overkill for this purpose.  *I just want 
an LFO that goes zero to +5V!*   Blacet's new LFO has zero to 10V and 
10V to zero outputs.  It is built for panning the Blacet VCAs.  But I 
don't have one of those LFOs!  And if I did, I would have to modify it 
for a five volt range.  Back to my 1980's synth.  The panning input took 
a zero to five volt signal and did the conversion internally.  I've seen 
many VCA panners with this feature.  I suspect the long-awaited MOTM 
panning VCA has it.

That's not the end of it.  For proper panning you want a smooth 
transition of the sound field.  It should appear to be moving gracefully 
left to right, without extreme level changes.  This requires the right 
sort of response in the VCA and the right control contour.  I've been 
playing with different combinations.  Using a sine wave as the control 
with an exponential VCA response seemed pretty good.  (That takes a 
MOTM-320R and two of my Mixer-Comparator modules to rig up.)  I'm over 
my head here and just dabbling.  Surely some of you folks know a lot 
more about this.  I haven't researched my Electronotes archive yet on 
this one (I tend to drop those heavy binders on my toes!).

So what do you folks use for VC panning?

Cheers,

Richard Brewster

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Tentochi

There is an easy solution to this one!!!  MOTM-130!!!  I think the design is already done.

> So what do you folks use for VC panning?

Hopefully when Paul gets finished with the expensive modules over the next 6 months, he will get
back to basics and round out the essentials with modules like this one.

--Shemp



		
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Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by cormallen

> So what do you folks use for VC panning?

The sin/cos outputs from the Encore frequency shifter into a pair of
190s works very nicely :-)

Harry

RE: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by John Loffink

I use this patch that I posted recently:

Borrowed from an old idea in Electronotes (GLAP):

Requires 1 VCA, 3 mult segments and 2 mixers with inverting attenuators (two
MOTM-830 first sections or two Oakley Multimixes)

Mults not listed for clarity.

Patch signal to be panned to VCA input, Mixer 1 input 2 (full +) and Mixer 2
input 2 (full +)
Patch VCA output to Mixer 1 input 3 (full -)
Patch Mixer 1 output to Mixer 2 input 3 (full -)
Patch 0 to 5 volt control source to VCA CV In
Mixer 1 output is first panned output
Mixer 2 output is opposite panned output

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Brewster [mailto:pugix@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 2:28 PM
> To: MOTM List
> Subject: [motm] Panning VCAs
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I have been experimenting with two-channel stereo panning and wanted to
> share my thoughts and get yours.  My 1980's era homebrew Electronotes
> synth used a pair of EN linear VCAs, for which I provided a panning VC
> input.  That did some convenient internal voltage conversion.  All the
> VCAs I use are similar to the MOTM-190 in taking a control voltage in
> the range of zero to +5V, with zero volts equating to zero gain and +5V
> to unity gain.  (I have two 190 VCAs, a modified Blacet Quad VCA/Mixer,
> and a Quad Low Pass Gates.  The latter is yet to be built, but I will
> calibrate it for a five volt control range.)  Let's say we want to pan a
> signal from left to right in stereo.  We need two VCAs, both taking the
> same signal input, with one going to the left and the other the right
> channel output.  We want to smoothly pan from one side to the other and
> back.  Stands to reason that we need one control going from zero to five
> as the other goes from five to zero volts.  Now my first problem is how
> to get a five to zero volt signal, starting from a zero to five volt
> one.  I can't just use an inverter, because the result will be going
> zero to minus five.  I have to add an offset of five volts.  In my synth
> I have several ways to do this.
> 
> I modified my MOTM-800 EGs so that the minus output goes from +5 to
> zero.  (Hint:  It takes one resistor.)  So I could use an 800.  But the
> exponential wave shape may not always be what I want for panning.
> Another module I can use is one of my Blacet EG2070s.  These also have +
> and - outputs like the MOTM-800.  The Blacet by design goes from +5V to
> zero on the minus output.   The upper voltage is adjustable, because
> Blacet standard VCA controls are zero to +10V.  I adjust mine for the
> five volt range to match MOTM.  The Blacet EG is a linear device and can
> self-cycle, so I have a pretty good panning controller there.  But what
> if I need my Blacet EG for something else?   A third candidate is my
> super-custom MOTM-OMS-820, which I modified to add a zero to +5V self
> cycle mode.  Again, that is way overkill for this purpose.  *I just want
> an LFO that goes zero to +5V!*   Blacet's new LFO has zero to 10V and
> 10V to zero outputs.  It is built for panning the Blacet VCAs.  But I
> don't have one of those LFOs!  And if I did, I would have to modify it
> for a five volt range.  Back to my 1980's synth.  The panning input took
> a zero to five volt signal and did the conversion internally.  I've seen
> many VCA panners with this feature.  I suspect the long-awaited MOTM
> panning VCA has it.
> 
> That's not the end of it.  For proper panning you want a smooth
> transition of the sound field.  It should appear to be moving gracefully
> left to right, without extreme level changes.  This requires the right
> sort of response in the VCA and the right control contour.  I've been
> playing with different combinations.  Using a sine wave as the control
> with an exponential VCA response seemed pretty good.  (That takes a
> MOTM-320R and two of my Mixer-Comparator modules to rig up.)  I'm over
> my head here and just dabbling.  Surely some of you folks know a lot
> more about this.  I haven't researched my Electronotes archive yet on
> this one (I tend to drop those heavy binders on my toes!).
> 
> So what do you folks use for VC panning?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Richard Brewster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Richard Brewster

Boy that was a quick response.  Yes, I've heard something about the 
MOTM-130.  Where can we view it?

To follow up, I did find an Electronotes article by Lester Ludwig, EN 
#108 (16).  He gives a circuit using the SSM2020 chip that does cross 
panning and fading.

-Richard

Tentochi wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>There is an easy solution to this one!!!  MOTM-130!!!  I think the design is already done.
>
>  
>
>>So what do you folks use for VC panning?
>>    
>>
>
>Hopefully when Paul gets finished with the expensive modules over the next 6 months, he will get
>back to basics and round out the essentials with modules like this one.
>
>--Shemp
>
>
>
>		
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 
>
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>  
>

Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Richard Brewster

I assume that you use VCA 2 of the 190, so you can adjust the initial 
gain and VC level accordingly.

-Richard

cormallen wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>So what do you folks use for VC panning?
>>    
>>
>
>The sin/cos outputs from the Encore frequency shifter into a pair of
>190s works very nicely :-)
>
>Harry
>
>
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>  
>

Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by cormallen

Yup.

Harry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I assume that you use VCA 2 of the 190, so you can adjust the initial 
> gain and VC level accordingly.
> 
> -Richard
> 
> cormallen wrote:
> 
> >>So what do you folks use for VC panning?
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >The sin/cos outputs from the Encore frequency shifter into a pair of
> >190s works very nicely :-)
> >
> >Harry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >  
> >

Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by mate_stubb

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/motm/m-130.jpg

Moe

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster <pugix@n...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Boy that was a quick response.  Yes, I've heard something about the 
> MOTM-130.  Where can we view it?
>

Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Richard Brewster

Here is Dave's response, that he intended for the MOTM list too.

djbrow54 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster <pugix@n...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Now my first problem is how > to get a five to zero volt signal,
>>starting from a zero to five volt one.  I can't just use an
>>inverter, because the result will be going zero to minus five.
>>    
>>
>
>I built myself a set of inverters for this purpose.  They're part of 
>my analogic module.  They're switchable for inverting 0-5 volt
>signals or +/-5 volt signals.
>
>  
>
>>I just want an LFO that goes zero to +5V!
>>    
>>
>
>I use my PSIM for this.  Programmed it up with five selectable 
>waveforms and four outputs per waveform - three at 120 degrees and a 
>fourth that is variable.  The outputs can be in any range from 0 - 10 
>volts.  It's easy to program it for 5 volts
>
>  
>
>>So what do you folks use for VC panning?
>>    
>>
>
>I build an output module out of the Charlie Lamm / Mike Irwin VCA
>with dual inputs on each channel.  The inputs are or'd with diodes
>so it takes the greater of the inputs.  One input is to a jack and
>the other is to a 0-5 volt control.  This way I can set my minimum
>threshold for each channel.  The VCA is followed by an overall
>volume control for my power amp.  I also have a remote switch
>for control of the power amp (Carver PM-600)
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-11 by Scott Juskiw

>So what do you folks use for VC panning?

I built my own dual VCAs with enough controls on them so that I can 
easily do VC panning without having to tie up a bunch of other 
modules. I have an initial gain knob, a linear VC input (with 
reversing attenutator), and an exponential VC input (also with 
reversing attenuator).

http://www.tellun.com/motm/diy/tln132/TLN-132.html

I can easily set these up to pan with linear or exponential voltage 
sources that are +/- 5Vpp or 0-5V. I believe the MOTM-130 (RIP?) will 
also have the necessary features for auto-panning.

I find the smoothest panning uses sine waves (rather than triangle 
waves). But I also like to use various Miniwave waveforms for really 
bizarre panning. See the above link for some VC panning samples with 
sine waves and linear vs. exponential response.

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by Richard Brewster

Nice looking VCA, that TLN-132.  Did you know that Googling for 'SSM 
2022' turns up your TLN-132 User Guide at the top of the list!

Great tip about using the Miniwave for VC of panning.  Of course it 
needs to be attenuated from 10V to 5V range.  I was playing around with 
the sine wave outputs on the MOTM-320R (with your DB320 daughterboard 
giving dual outputs) for panning control.  Remember, the shape of these 
sine outputs is also morphed by the SHAPE controls.

-Richard Brewster

Scott Juskiw wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>So what do you folks use for VC panning?
>>    
>>
>
>I built my own dual VCAs with enough controls on them so that I can 
>easily do VC panning without having to tie up a bunch of other 
>modules. I have an initial gain knob, a linear VC input (with 
>reversing attenutator), and an exponential VC input (also with 
>reversing attenuator).
>
>http://www.tellun.com/motm/diy/tln132/TLN-132.html
>
>I can easily set these up to pan with linear or exponential voltage 
>sources that are +/- 5Vpp or 0-5V. I believe the MOTM-130 (RIP?) will 
>also have the necessary features for auto-panning.
>
>I find the smoothest panning uses sine waves (rather than triangle 
>waves). But I also like to use various Miniwave waveforms for really 
>bizarre panning. See the above link for some VC panning samples with 
>sine waves and linear vs. exponential response.
>
>
>  
>

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by synth1@airmail.net

The MOTM-130 is "done" in terms of design R&D, meaning it's been entered
into my CAD schematic database. It has as many parts as the CS-80 filter.
So, I need to deside how to 'market' it. Since it's the 3rd MOTM VCA, I am
guessing the desire will be 50 units or less. So, if I introduce it next
year, it will more than likely be a limited run, semi-assembled affair as
the CS-80 VCF is.

It *is* a pretty slick JH design: all discrete signal path.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by ixqy@aol.com

Regarding the future MOTM-130 pan/fade, would a "constant-power" pan feature 
be desirable?

http://hummer.stanford.edu/sig/doc/classes/Pan/overview.html

 I already have a pan/fade module in my system, but for some reason the 
response doesn't seem quite right. I just realized now that this may be why. Not 
sure how constant-power would apply to the fade mode. I guess it would(?).

 Andrew Sanchez

Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by Sikorsky

hello all,
this got me thinking, so i multed a signal into two VCAs (motm 110) then
used a CGS37 CV Cluster to create the two control voltages, initially i used
an LFO to create the clock pulse and divided this down using an MOTM120R.
Sub 1 output went to the CV cluster voltage input, while Sub 2 output went
to the Modulator input. Alternatively the LFO outputs from an OMS410 we fed
into the CV Cluster

food for thought...

cheers
paul
sheffield
uk

RE: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by Greg James

Paul,
You're approach got me thinking (uh oh). If "both" sides are controlled independently,
then you'd have more control over how the panning occurs. Sometimes, you might not
want a competely "summed" pan - you may want one side or the other to be higher or
lower than it might otherwise be if both sides always summed to 100%. That could be
used for some more natrual or interesting sounding pans, no?
-Greg
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Sikorsky [mailto:vulture.squadron@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 6:57 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

hello all,
this got me thinking, so i multed a signal into two VCAs (motm 110) then
used a CGS37 CV Cluster to create the two control voltages, initially i used
an LFO to create the clock pulse and divided this down using an MOTM120R.
Sub 1 output went to the CV cluster voltage input, while Sub 2 output went
to the Modulator input. Alternatively the LFO outputs from an OMS410 we fed
into the CV Cluster

food for thought...

cheers
paul
sheffield
uk


Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

2004-09-12 by J. Larry Hendry

I agree Greg. That was why I suggested independent bias of the individual outputs.
Larry H
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg James
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

Paul,
You're approach got me thinking (uh oh). If "both" sides are controlled independently,
then you'd have more control over how the panning occurs. Sometimes, you might not
want a competely "summed" pan - you may want one side or the other to be higher or
lower than it might otherwise be if both sides always summed to 100%. That could be
used for some more natrual or interesting sounding pans, no?
-Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Sikorsky [mailto:vulture.squadron@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 6:57 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs

hello all,
this got me thinking, so i multed a signal into two VCAs (motm 110) then
used a CGS37 CV Cluster to create the two control voltages, initially i used
an LFO to create the clock pulse and divided this down using an MOTM120R.
Sub 1 output went to the CV cluster voltage input, while Sub 2 output went
to the Modulator input. Alternatively the LFO outputs from an OMS410 we fed
into the CV Cluster

food for thought...

cheers
paul
sheffield
uk