MOTM

OK, I'll have to chime in here I guess.   I have to agree that some EGs
ought to have VC of the parameters.  It seems to me that the implementation
is really the big issue.  Just where should the HOLD points be.  One which
is pretty obvious to me is the HOLD that can be created at the sustain level
by simply extending the gate.  This would commonly be the sustain pedal.
So, we A and D up to the hold at S, and the D once the pedal is released and
complete R.  Hold before seems to be no more than a gate delay.  I think I
would just as soon have gate delay as a separate module and add it to my EG
when needed.  But, am I understanding some folks want hold between A and D?
If so, I do not understand.  I am doing my favorite imitation of Stooge
Larry in a Lucille Ball outfit asking Ricky to "splain" it to me.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: <synth1@...>
To: Scott Juskiw <scott@...>
Cc: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: [motm] VCEG



Well, it's not that I don't *want* to do a VCEG. The "problem" is I have 2
MOTM designers *both* with a VCEG design :)

Crow's CS-80 design has more parts and is more esoteric than JH's. I'm
waiting for Crow to source some hard-to-find parts. If it turns out that
these parts are just too much of a pain, then I can use JH's. However,
with things as they are, I'm only focusing on the here-and-now.

Paul S.





Yahoo! Groups Links

I think you are using hold to explain what the sustain pedal does and I 
am using hold to describe an extra segment in the envelope. AHDSR 
allows the sound to attack, stay at full level, then decay to the 
sustain portion.

On Sep 2, 2004, at 1:36 PM, J. Larry Hendry wrote:

> OK, I'll have to chime in here I guess.   I have to agree that some EGs
>  ought to have VC of the parameters.  It seems to me that the 
> implementation
>  is really the big issue.  Just where should the HOLD points be.  One 
> which
>  is pretty obvious to me is the HOLD that can be created at the 
> sustain level
>  by simply extending the gate.  This would commonly be the sustain 
> pedal.
>  So, we A and D up to the hold at S, and the D once the pedal is 
> released and
>  complete R.  Hold before seems to be no more than a gate delay.  I 
> think I
>  would just as soon have gate delay as a separate module and add it to 
> my EG
>  when needed.  But, am I understanding some folks want hold between A 
> and D?
>  If so, I do not understand.  I am doing my favorite imitation of 
> Stooge
>  Larry in a Lucille Ball outfit asking Ricky to "splain" it to me.

> Hold before seems to be no more than a gate delay.

Just the opposite. Gate isn't delayed, it's "held". It's like a monoflop,
only that the
hold time starts when the gate is removed (not applied), so the resulting
internal gate signal is the sum of the time you hold the key and the
(voltage controlled)
Hold parameter.
Hold before the ADSR, as the MS-20 has it, and as it's part of my VC-HADSR
design,
allows you to trigger a long envelope, even with long attack, by just
sending a very short
gate signal. I use this a lot when I make complex soundscapes "live in the
studio": Trigger
the JH-720 (where this env in implemented) for a long self-evolving sound,
and then
quickly go on playing other synths. Combinations of different H, A and D
times create
different contour shapes (very much unlike the also self-completing AD shape
of
some other classic EGs).

JH.

Thanks JH.  This makes a ton of sense.  I appreciate everyone's comments to
help "enlighten" me.  Sometimes I can be quite a stooge.

Later,
Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: JH. <jhaible@...>
To: MOTM List <motm@yahoogroups.com>; J. Larry Hendry <jlarryh@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] My take on this EG thing.


> Hold before seems to be no more than a gate delay.

Just the opposite. Gate isn't delayed, it's "held". It's like a monoflop,
only that the
hold time starts when the gate is removed (not applied), so the resulting
internal gate signal is the sum of the time you hold the key and the
(voltage controlled)
Hold parameter.
Hold before the ADSR, as the MS-20 has it, and as it's part of my VC-HADSR
design,
allows you to trigger a long envelope, even with long attack, by just
sending a very short
gate signal. I use this a lot when I make complex soundscapes "live in the
studio": Trigger
the JH-720 (where this env in implemented) for a long self-evolving sound,
and then
quickly go on playing other synths. Combinations of different H, A and D
times create
different contour shapes (very much unlike the also self-completing AD shape
of
some other classic EGs).

JH.

>But, am I understanding some folks want hold between A and D?
>If so, I do not understand.  I am doing my favorite imitation of Stooge
>Larry in a Lucille Ball outfit asking Ricky to "splain" it to me.

Draw this out (in your head or on paper): a gate is applied to the 
EG, the EG output starts at 0 volts, attacks to +5V, immediately 
decays down to +2.5V (the sustain level) and drops back to zero when 
the gate is dropped. That's your standard ADSR envelope. Now draw a 
horizontal line at +3V and erase everything above the +3V line. 
That's your AHDSR envelope. It attacks then holds before decaying to 
the sustain level. It's good for adding punch to percussive sounds. 
It seems to over emphasize the attack, almost like having a limiter. 
Think of it as simply a "clamped" envelope.

I can think of two ways to do this with MOTM. The easiest is to use 
an Oakley Wavefolder to clamp the output from an MOTM-800 so that it 
doesn't go above N volts. Apply the 800 output to the Wavefolder 
input. Use the CLAMP output on the Wavefolder. Set the GAIN to 8, the 
THRESHOLD to 2. Granted, that's not an MOTM module.

Another way is to use an MOTM-700 and a MOTM-830 (or JLH-822 or 
Oakley multimix with my mods so that it can act as a DC source). Run 
the MOTM-800 output to the CV and IO A inputs on the 700. Plug a DC 
source (the 830 or 822) to the IO B input. Set the MODE to VOLTAGE 
and the SWITCH level to +3 on the 700. Take the clamped EG output 
from IO X on the 700. You'll have to tweak the DC level so that it 
perfectly matches the SWITCH level to avoid any clicking from 
discontinuity.

There may be other ways, but these two work, I just patched them up to verify.

> But, am I understanding some folks want hold between A and D?
> If so, I do not understand.  I am doing my favorite imitation of Stooge
> Larry in a Lucille Ball outfit asking Ricky to "splain" it to me.

The main reason AFAIK for this ever becoming an issue is due to a flaw in the Minimoog EG which
many began revering as a feature.  This flaw was that a slight hold (aka flat spot) was held at
the peak between the Attack and Decay.  Many people believe (I don't have any evidence one way or
the other myself) that this is one of the things that give the Minimoog is extra umph (oomf?).

If any one ever designed an EG with this phase included, a practical range might be somewhere in
the range of 0 sec. to 10 millisec.  My guess is that the proof would be in the pudding and that
this phase might be better controlled with a trim pot--set it and forget it.  The only real way to
know would be to actually test it at different lengths using different source material.  Who
knows, this might be a really cool thing to have a know and/or VC for.  Regardless, it would still
be very subtle and many people wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference either way.

--Shemp


		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush