MOTM

> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> Not off hand, but his initials are Paul (Guitarzan Whompass MOTM)
Schreiber! 
> Sorry, but I was making an(other feeble) attempt at humor, due to the
fact 
> that when the list started almost a year ago, and there was almost no 
> traffic, we would often post wish list modules for Paul to ponder. I made
a 
> few lengthy posts regarding the things I like about my small two panel
Serge. 
> I "think" some people felt like I was advertising for STS on the MOTM
list 
> (BTW, all my Serge stuff was bought from Serge T., not Rex P.), but my
real 
> intention was (and is) to relate specific functions that I would truly
desire 
> in a system. So it was surprising to see a thread which seemed to list
all of 
> Paul's competition without mentioning MOTM at all.

I think that getting ideas from what other have done is always a good
source for inspiration.  Sometimes you can learn what NOT to do and well as
what to do.  Those of you on the synth-diy list may have no doubt followed
the thread about the two new D****er modules, one of which seems to be a
blatant use of JHs (of MOTM design fame) scanner idea and design.  Once I
got past the fact that this idea was apparently taken from JHs pages on
synthfool and applied for commercial use (despite JH making it available
only for private use) I had another thought.  Hey, that seems like a really
cool idea for a module.  Of course, I know that the MOTM implementation
would blow away the D****er version.  And, I bet the designer would get
proper credit in that case too.  If you have not seen this new scanner
module, you should go check it out on JHs web page.  The man is true genius
and I am glad to know that he is teamed up with Paul on some MOTM design
work.  You can even visit the D****er site and see what an "apparently"
stolen idea looks like in module form.  Just don't buy it.  Instead come
ask Paul to make us one if you think you would like to have it.

Larry (hint hint) Hendry

And what pisses me off, is that several people on the DIY list (some of which 
may be on the MOTM list too) would've liked to see Paul make a module such as 
this many moths ago but realized how busy he was and what a boutique module 
this would be. So a few bright/talented people (and me too) started to work 
on a DIY co-op of this module WITH JH's permission, but it seemed to die out 
at the breadboard stage (it's a huge circuit). We really appreciated JH's 
help in getting as far as we did, and I for one hope that all those who 
participated in that DIY project will resist the temptation to purchase one 
of these.

Happy to wait for the MOTM version!
John Whompass Barlow

In a message dated 10/30/99 5:25:23 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

> Those of you on the synth-diy list may have no doubt followed
>
>the thread about the two new D****er modules, one of which seems to be
>a
>
>blatant use of JHs (of MOTM design fame) scanner idea and design.  Once
>I
>
>got past the fact that this idea was apparently taken from JHs pages on
>
>synthfool and applied for commercial use (despite JH making it available
>
>only for private use) I had another thought.  Hey, that seems like a really
>
>cool idea for a module.  Of course, I know that the MOTM implementation
>
>would blow away the D****er version.  And, I bet the designer would get
>
>proper credit in that case too.  If you have not seen this new scanner
>
>module, you should go check it out on JHs web page.  The man is true genius
>
>and I am glad to know that he is teamed up with Paul on some MOTM design
>
>work.  You can even visit the D****er site and see what an "apparently"
>
>stolen idea looks like in module form.  Just don't buy it.  Instead come
>
>ask Paul to make us one if you think you would like to have it.
>
>
>
>Larry (hint hint) Hendry

In a message dated 99-10-30 20:25:24 EDT, you write:

<< thread about the two new D****er modules, one of which seems to be a
 blatant use of JHs (of MOTM design fame) scanner idea and design.  Once I
 got past the fact that this idea was apparently taken from JHs pages on
 synthfool and applied for commercial use (despite JH making it available
 only for private use) I had another thought.  Hey, that seems like a really
 cool idea for a module.  Of course, I know that the MOTM implementation
 would blow away the D****er version.  And, I bet the designer would get
 proper credit in that case too.  If you have not seen this new scanner
 module, you should go check it out on JHs web page.  The man is true genius
 and I am glad to know that he is teamed up with Paul on some MOTM design
 work.  You can even visit the D****er site and see what an "apparently"
 stolen idea looks like in module form.  Just don't buy it.  Instead come
 ask Paul to make us one if you think you would like to have it.
  >>




larry,
okay, i`m new here and don`t know who JH is. i haven`t seen the other list 
you mention but look at the d****** web site occasionally and am not sure 
what module you mean nor what you mean by "scanner" - ?   i`m certainly not 
saying that d****** didn`t borrow someones idea but since i don`t know what 
it was, i can`t fairly say that they did. clue me in - what kind of module?  
for that matter, whats "synthfool" - ? a website? got the url? i`d like to 
take a look.  
best,
dave

In a message dated 99-10-30 20:48:56 EDT, you write:

<< 
 And what pisses me off, is that several people on the DIY list (some of 
which 
 may be on the MOTM list too) would've liked to see Paul make a module such 
as 
 this many moths ago but realized how busy he was and what a boutique module 
 this would be. So a few bright/talented people (and me too) started to work 
 on a DIY co-op of this module WITH JH's permission, but it seemed to die out 
 at the breadboard stage (it's a huge circuit). We really appreciated JH's 
 help in getting as far as we did, and I for one hope that all those who 
 participated in that DIY project will resist the temptation to purchase one 
 of these.
  >>




john,
arghhh !!!!! what is this module? i`m really curious to know........
i need names, url`s, something........  :^)
best,
dave

In a message dated 10/30/99 8:24:16 PM, DAVEVOSH@... writes:

>arghhh !!!!! what is this module? i`m really curious to know........
>i need names, url`s, something........  :^)

Kevin Lightner's excellent Synthfool site is at:

http://www.synthfool.com/

He hosts Juergen Habile's page including many diy circuits, including his 
Interpolating Scanner at:

http://www.synthfool.com/diy/jh_ipscan.html

Apologies for cryptic references!
JB

> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> Apologies for cryptic references!
> JB

Me too, I apologize too for the abbr.  Thanks to JB for beating me to
getting you the information.

Regarding the Synthfool site,  spend some time looking around.  There are a
lot of great photos there.  And, Kevin Lightner (the fool behind synthfool)
is one super nice guy who has given a lot of help to a lot of people in the
diy community.

LH

From: DAVEVOSH@...

john,
could you resend your last "modules to ponder' posting - ? a twitchy finger

caused me to accidently delete it unread!!!!!  oops!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----------------------------
In case John has already gone to Stooge nighty-nite, I think this is the
one you might have deleted.
LH
----------

> From: JWBarlow@...
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] more module ideas to ponder
> Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:35 PM
> 
> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/30/99 8:24:16 PM, DAVEVOSH@... writes:
> 
> >arghhh !!!!! what is this module? i`m really curious to know........
> >i need names, url`s, something........  :^)
> 
> Kevin Lightner's excellent Synthfool site is at:
> 
> http://www.synthfool.com/
> 
> He hosts Juergen Habile's page including many diy circuits, including his

> Interpolating Scanner at:
> 
> http://www.synthfool.com/diy/jh_ipscan.html
> 
> Apologies for cryptic references!
> JB

In a message dated 99-10-31 00:09:05 EDT, you write:

<< Regarding the Synthfool site,  spend some time looking around.  There are a
 lot of great photos there.  And, Kevin Lightner (the fool behind synthfool)
 is one super nice guy who has given a lot of help to a lot of people in the
 diy community. >>


larry,
i certainly plan to take a look and not to put down mr. lightner, so far, 
everyone i`ve talked to has been helpful and understanding. it`s great to 
"come home"....... :^)
best,
dave

In a message dated 99-10-31 00:31:37 EDT, you write:

<< ---------------------------
 In case John has already gone to Stooge nighty-nite, I think this is the
 one you might have deleted.
 LH
 - >>



larry,
thanks, john did resend it. now, what d****** module is supposed to be 
pirated from this ?  the last time i looked at their webpage, the soon to be 
released stuff included a vc mixer and a new waveshaper. now, various vc 
mixer designs have been around for years and the waveshaper ( and i think 
this might be the one you are refering to ) seems to use non-linear 
breakpoints which is also an idea that has been around for years, i remember 
an article about it from electronotes, probably late 70`s. if they actually 
"stole" jh`s design, yes, i absolutely agree that that would be unethical at 
the very least. if its the non-linear idea, well, thats been "in the air" for 
some time and should certainly be open to implementation by any and all. 
heck, neat waveshapers of any and all types would be a great addition to the 
motm line!!!! there are lots of things out there waiting to be added to a 
system design......
opinions ?
best,
dave

DAVEVOSH@... writes:
>>now, what d****** module is supposed to be pirated from this ?  the last 
time i looked at their webpage, the soon to be released stuff included a vc 
mixer and a new waveshaper.<<

If I may take a guess at this:  After reading the JH section on the synthfool 
site and then probing around the Doepfer site, I believe it is probably the 
A-144 Morphing Controller that he is talking about.  With one control 
voltage, the module can sweep through 4 out of phase triangle ramps that are 
used to control the Voltage Controlled Mixer CVs.  That way, 4 audio inputs 
into the VC Mixer can faded in and out, one after another with just one 
control voltage.

I have no more expansion room in my D**pher system so I was hoping they 
wouldn't come out with anymore interesting modules.  But damn, I am probably 
going to have to pull out my two vocoder modules, and pop in some of their 
new modules.  I keep getting pulled back in.  The spending of money never 
ends.

-Elhardt

In a message dated 99-10-31 02:42:19 EST, you write:

<< The spending of money never 
 ends. >>



elhardt,
certainly with a modular system, that is the case. my wife is dismayed / 
bemused by my on-going plans to expand mine.
best,
dave

In a message dated 99-10-31 02:42:19 EST, you write:

<< With one control 
 voltage, the module can sweep through 4 out of phase triangle ramps that are 
 used to control the Voltage Controlled Mixer CVs.  That way, 4 audio inputs 
 into the VC Mixer can faded in and out, one after another with just one 
 control voltage. >>



just to play "devils advocate" ( forgive me!!! ), might this not be a scaled 
down version of a shepard function module ? i`m not familiar with theirs from 
using one but i had a paia one in my last modular/homebrew machine and used 
it for just this sort of thing along with out of phase multi 
vibrato/modulation in a single "voice"/patch. i never had 8 of anything to 
try the actual shepard function ( well, not quite true but..... )! i saw it 
as a source of strange modulation control voltages. i don`t know. if they 
ripped off the guy`s design, at the very least, uncredited, then as i said 
before, thats ABSOLUTELY WRONG.  BUT, we also need to be sure of what mud we 
are slinging and at whom. if true, i wouldn`t buy the module on principle but 
with so much "in the air" in terms of ideas ( which aren`t copyrightable, 
only implementations ) we should try to be careful. i don`t advocate piracy 
but i do advocate innovation.
best,
dave

As I write this (worked a full 13 hours at my day-gig) I see that someone
else has already answered the "which modules is it" question.  Looks like
blatant borrowing for commercial use from most of the guys over on
synth-diy (those that voiced an opinion).

Certainly JH intended to share his ideas and schematics freely for
"personal use" and clearly says that on his site.  Certainly commercial
production for profit is a different animal if you don't:
1 - ask permission
2 - credit the proper people
3 - pay royalties in whatever the manner then norm is for this use.

I don't want to drag that thread out.  I just wanted to say what a cool
idea the scanner is and how it might be a future candidate for future (hint
hint) MOTM consideration.

I could make some self-righteous statement like it would be a cold day in
hell before I bought any D****er stuff because of this incident.  But, I
wasn't planning on buying any of it anyway.  Paul is doing a fine job of
keeping my spare music money well spoken for (I did sneak in that Dual
Showman head, he he).

Larry H


> From: DAVEVOSH@...
> larry,
> thanks, john did resend it. now, what d****** module is supposed to be 
> pirated from this ?  the last time i looked at their webpage, the soon to
be 
> released stuff included a vc mixer and a new waveshaper. now, various vc 
> mixer designs have been around for years and the waveshaper ( and i think

> this might be the one you are refering to ) seems to use non-linear 
> breakpoints which is also an idea that has been around for years, i
remember 
> an article about it from electronotes, probably late 70`s. if they
actually 
> "stole" jh`s design, yes, i absolutely agree that that would be unethical
at 
> the very least. if its the non-linear idea, well, thats been "in the air"
for 
> some time and should certainly be open to implementation by any and all. 
> heck, neat waveshapers of any and all types would be a great addition to
the 

> motm line!!!! there are lots of things out there waiting to be added to a

> system design......
> opinions ?
> best,
> dave

In a message dated 99-10-31 20:22:26 EST, you write:

<< I just wanted to say what a cool
 idea the scanner is and how it might be a future candidate for future (hint
 hint) MOTM consideration. >>



certainly true if either okayed by creator or  "clean room "reverse 
engineered. unusual control voltage modules are one of the things that make 
modulars so much fun to play with!
best,
dave

DAVEVOSH@... writes:
>>just to play "devils advocate" ( forgive me!!! ), might this not be a 
scaled down version of a shepard function module ? .... if they ripped off 
the guy`s design, at the very least, uncredited, then as i said before, thats 
ABSOLUTELY WRONG.  BUT, we also need to be sure of what mud we are slinging 
and at whom. if true, i wouldn`t buy the module on principle but with so much 
"in the air" in terms of ideas ( which aren`t copyrightable, only 
implementations ) we should try to be careful. i don`t advocate piracy but i 
do advocate innovation.<<

You are correct.  People like to get up in arms over almost anything anymore. 
 D**pfers A-144 Morphing Controller is similar to the shepard generator, of 
which D**pfer already has implimented on one of their midi modules.  It is 
even more similar to the Polyfusion's VC-Quadrature Oscillator, which 
generates 4 sinewaves 90 degrees out of phase with each other, controled from 
one CV.  That module has been around about 20 years before JH's idea on the 
Synthfool website.  So enough with the D**pfer bashing.

-Elhardt

In a message dated 10/31/99 10:24:40 PM, Elhardt@... writes:

>>>just to play "devils advocate" ( forgive me!!! ), might this not be a
>scaled down version of a shepard function module ?

<edit by JB>

>i 
>do advocate innovation.<<

I agree about advocating innovation. But let me then play the part of the 
Angel for which I'm so well suited! I believe a Shepard Function Generator is 
a very different module than a Morphing module (Interpolating Scanner).

>You are correct.  People like to get up in arms over almost anything anymore.
> D**pfers A-144 Morphing Controller is similar to the shepard generator,
>of 
>which D**pfer already has implimented on one of their midi modules.  It
>is 
>even more similar to the Polyfusion's VC-Quadrature Oscillator, which 
>generates 4 sinewaves 90 degrees out of phase with each other, controled
>from 
>one CV.  That module has been around about 20 years before JH's idea on
>the 
>Synthfool website.  

I believe the Quadrature Oscillator is very different from a 4 channel 
Scanner (I think the diy-pcb list was working on an 8 channel version as I 
recall). The Scanner is "like" several VCAs, and lets you index through 
different input sources (either audio or CV). Of course a VC mixer isn't a 
terribly unique idea either. 

And hey, if you want to index between say 4 different sources (CV or audio) 
via a single CV source.....let me see.... 
1) take one MOTM 700, 
2) take one CV to the CV inputs of both switches (adjust the input knobs 
appropriately), 
3) apply desired inputs to the two switches, 
4) take the two outputs to 2 MOTM VCAs (one VCA has inverted CV source of the 
other VCA) ..... hmmm 4 channel MOTM morphing! 

But of course you can use the 700 for other things too, which is the beauty 
of modular!

>So enough with the D**pfer bashing.

But you are right -- I'll stop bashing what's his name.

John (Just Call Me Angel ....) Barlow

JWBarlow@... writes:
>>I believe a Shepard Function Generator is a very different module than a 
Morphing module (Interpolating Scanner).<<

It is somewhat different, not VERY different.  The Shepard Generator can do 
sawtooth waves for barberpole type effects, but also does triangle.

>>I believe the Quadrature Oscillator is very different from a 4 channel 
Scanner<<

It is NOT very different from the A-144 Doepfer Morphing Controller.  Both 
the Polyfusion and Doepfer units don't do anything on their own.  But once 
you hook them up to 4 VCAs, you get something like the 4 channel scanner.

-Elhardt

In a message dated 99-11-01 00:24:39 EST, you write:

<<  Polyfusion's VC-Quadrature Oscillator, >>



elhardt,
gee, talk about overlooking the obvious! notwithstanding the polyfusion 
version which i`ve never seen, certainly a v.c. quadrature oscillator would 
provide a similar source of control voltages with the required phase 
relationships.
best,
dave

In a message dated 99-11-01 01:12:57 EST, you write:

<< I believe the Quadrature Oscillator is very different from a 4 channel 
 Scanner  >>



john,
probably in terms of the circuitry, yes, but in terms of the concept of a 
source of 4 control voltages each 90 degrees out of phase with voltage 
control of the source, well, we are now talking about matters of degree. 
ditto using a shepard type module, if you were to use something like a PLL as 
a voltage input to control the frequency of the phased functions. me, i like 
alternate sources of control voltages beyond the standard adsr`s and lfo`s.
best,
dave

Not enough to do Shepard effects-8 control lines is the minimum to simulate
the barberpole.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	DAVEVOSH@... [mailto:DAVEVOSH@...]
		certainly a v.c. quadrature oscillator would 
		provide a similar source of control voltages with the
required phase 
		relationships.

>>***DAVEVOSH@...*** writes:
 elhardt,
 gee, talk about overlooking the obvious! notwithstanding the polyfusion 
 version which i`ve never seen, certainly a v.c. quadrature oscillator would 
 provide a similar source of control voltages with the required phase 
 relationships.<<

This is exactly what I have been saying !  I was the one who brought up the 
Quadrature Oscillator in the first place.  I have noticed here and a few 
messages before that people are confusing who wrote what.  I put other 
peoples comments in brackets as above.  <-- This written by Elhardt

-Elhardt

In a message dated 99-11-02 09:35:18 EST, you write:

<< 
 Not enough to do Shepard effects-8 control lines is the minimum to simulate
 the barberpole.
  >>


right on "shepard" type effects but for a "morpher", 4 should be enough.
best,
dave