MOTM

For the geetar folks out there:

Turns out what I received was a Fender Super Reverb Amp head
and the 4x12 seperate speaker cabinet. Does have the footswitches,
and also 2 of the 50's "Elvis" style metal mics DeKane Model 7A65.

So, what's the poop on this rig? He's also going to send me a Univox
drum machine circa 1972. (He bought all of this stuff new in '72).

Paul S.

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> For the geetar folks out there:
> 
> Turns out what I received was a Fender Super Reverb Amp head
> and the 4x12 seperate speaker cabinet. Does have the footswitches,
> and also 2 of the 50's "Elvis" style metal mics DeKane Model 7A65.

Hmmm.  The Super Reverb I remember was all in one, not a head with separate
cabinet.  And, it had 4 10" speakers instead of 12".  I have never seen the
separate Super Reverb head.  The Super Reverb I remember really rocked.

The cabinet that came with the Dual Showman you thought you were getting
actually had two 15" speakers.  That was the only dual 15 cabinet I ever
saw made especially for guitar.

Larry (non-geetar folk that knew a few of them types over the years) Hendry

In a message dated 10/22/99 6:31:38 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>Hmmm.  The Super Reverb I remember was all in one, not a head with separate
>cabinet.  And, it had 4 10" speakers instead of 12".  I have never seen
>the
>separate Super Reverb head.  The Super Reverb I remember really rocked.

Yes, yes and YES! That "old" (not by Fender standards) Super is really great, 
though you already knew that. I know nothing about the separate head Super, 
or a 4 X 12 cabinet for that matter -- it seems a bit early for Fender to 
have wanted to compete with half stacks. I don't have any of those "Amps of 
the Stars!!!!" books, but I do have a big technical tube amp book called: 
"The Tube Amp Book 4.1th Edition" by Aspen Pittman. It shows several 
schematics for Super and Super Reverb amps. The tube list for the Super 
Reverb is 4 - 7025, 2 - 12AT7, 1 6L6 duet, and possibly a 5U4. Does that look 
familiar? I'm assuming it's a silver face too.

The Supers I'm familiar with were 40 watts (I think) at 2 ohms with the 4 10s 
in parallel, so the 4 12 cabinet isn't a stretch (and I like 12s too, 
especially Celestions or Jensen Special Designs). I believe Fender used 
Jensens in the old days, JBLs in the 60s and in their high end models, and a 
lot of "Fender" speakers in the 60s and up. And of course the typical heads 
are Bassman and Bandmaster, but you knew that too.

>The cabinet that came with the Dual Showman you thought you were getting
>actually had two 15" speakers.  That was the only dual 15 cabinet I ever
>saw made especially for guitar.

I seem to remember that Dick Dale may have had a lot to do with the 
development of the Dual Showman, like Townshend and the Marshall, so the 15 
makes more sense in that respect -- my first real amp was an Acoustic 100 
watt with a 15" Altec, it was the wrong amp for me.

I hope someone else can help you more than I have -- of course you can always 
sell it to Barlow for scrap!
JB

> From: JWBarlow@...
> I don't have any of those "Amps of  the Stars!!!!" books,
> but I do have a big technical tube amp book called: 
> "The Tube Amp Book 4.1th Edition" by Aspen Pittman.
> It shows several schematics for Super and Super Reverb
> amps. The tube list for the Super Reverb is 4 - 7025,
> 2 - 12AT7, 1 6L6 duet, and possibly a 5U4. Does that look 
> familiar? I'm assuming it's a silver face too.

Hey, anything in that book about the Dual Showman?  While Paul was awaiting
his shipment, I actually purchased a Dual Showman (head only).  Although
this one is in fine working order, a schematic would be nice to have. 
However, back when I went to 'lectronics school, we learned to fix tube
amps without schematics.  The Dual Showman uses the same 6L6 push-pull
arrangement as the super reverb and bandmaster, except it has two pair in
parallel.  Officially, Fender rated it for 85 watts I think.

> The Supers I'm familiar with were 40 watts (I think) at 2
> ohms with the 4 10s in parallel.

Wow!  I didn't remember that the total speaker cabinet impedance was that
low.  I guess I always assumed that the 4 speaker cabinets were series /
parallel so that the cabinet impedance was the same as one of the speakers.
 Of course, I was only 17 and slightly influenced by recreational drugs
when we were using these things in high school.  However, the wattage you
remember should be about right. 2 6L6s should yield about 35 to 45 watts. I
think about 22 or 23 watts each was about all the heat the plate could
handle.

Larry (feeling old talking about tubes) Hendry

In a message dated 10/22/99 9:23:34 PM, synth1@... writes:

>The head amp is a "chop job". It *is* a blackface (chassis #A09196) Super
>Reverb Amp.
>But somebody put the "guts" in a custom Fender-ish case. Has Tung-Sol 6L6
>output
>tubes, which means about 1967 (!?!). I'll post to rec.whatever and try
>to
>pin it down. 

I kind of wondered about this since a few years ago a guy at work was tell me 
about a Twin Reverb he had -- I think he mentioned jamming or auditioning for 
some metal band or something and using his Yamaha solid state amp (yuck!). 
When I asked him about his Twin he said he needed more power (?) and didn't 
like the sound (??) and how when you turned up the Intensity to get more 
volume (???) it never got that loud, to which I replied "NO!" and he said 
"but you know how you..." "NO!" We went on for a while and I persuaded him to 
let me see it. It was a total mess, tolex ripped off one of the corners. That 
corner joint had completely failed. Some absurd master volume mod using the 
intensity knob (see lumbo reference below). A whole bunch of other stuff. All 
I could think of was cutting the cabinet down to make a separate head so I 
could use my 25 year old 4 X 12 SMF (same as Sound City) cabinet -- three 
guesses what SMF stands for. He didn't want to let the Twin go, and when he 
got it back he couldn't believe it was the same amp, he had no idea how much 
power it was supposed to have.

As far as the black face goes, in the section of the book about Fender it 
says: "many of the black faced amps, even the few produced by the early CBS 
company are identical in specifications and performance. Only the very early 
silver faced amps suffered from engineering changes that made them less 
desirable for players as compared to the previous generation of amps."
 
>The cabinet has 2 Sunn "Guitar Transducers" speakers, 15" each. There are
>2
>small tube ports
>and a wooden "shelf baffle" inside. The back has a 1/4" plug and the 2
>speakers are just in parallel.
>The damn thing had 36 screws in the rear cover plate.


Whose idea is it for 15' guitar speakers? I seem to remember almost as many 
screws on my old Orange cabinets, and I was reconing speakers all the time.

In a message dated 10/22/99 8:46:29 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>Hey, anything in that book about the Dual Showman?  While Paul was awaiting
>his shipment, I actually purchased a Dual Showman (head only).  Although
>this one is in fine working order, a schematic would be nice to have. 
>However, back when I went to 'lectronics school, we learned to fix tube
>amps without schematics.  The Dual Showman uses the same 6L6 push-pull
>arrangement as the super reverb and bandmaster, except it has two pair
>in
>parallel.  Officially, Fender rated it for 85 watts I think.

85 watts is what I remember too. If you are looking for a good single book 
for tube amps, then I strongly recommend this one. I got it several years ago 
at (the legendary) Mc Cabes Guitar Shop where it was recommended as the best 
amp book for a variety of different amps. It's about 750 pages, with about 
450 pages (!!!) of different schematics (though almost no text about any 
particular amp), I paid about $30 for mine, and I'm sure you can get them 
from Antique Electronics in AZ. It is made by the guys who make Groove Tubes 
so you get a lot of that stuff too -- sort of free advertising.

If you just want schematics for the Dual Showman, I could photocopy those off 
for you (there are a few different schematics, though I don't see any 
noticeable difference in general), though in the book they are about half 
scale so they might not show up so well on an enlargement.


>> The Supers I'm familiar with were 40 watts (I think) at 2
>> ohms with the 4 10s in parallel.

>Wow!  I didn't remember that the total speaker cabinet impedance was that
>low.  I guess I always assumed that the 4 speaker cabinets were series
>/
>parallel so that the cabinet impedance was the same as one of the speakers.
> Of course, I was only 17 and slightly influenced by recreational drugs
>when we were using these things in high school.  

Yeah, working on your "killer sounding Marshall" under the influence of 
"killer lumbo" can get you...well...killed!
 
However, the wattage you
>remember should be about right. 2 6L6s should yield about 35 to 45 watts.
>I
>think about 22 or 23 watts each was about all the heat the plate could
>handle.

Yeah, that's from memory, but the 2 ohm output impedance is from the 
schematic (2 ohms? What were they thinkin?), as is the parallel speaker 
arrangement. So, if that cabinet is 8 ohms that's a fair difference. I've 
been using my Deluxe (8 ohm output) for about 20 years with a 12" 16 ohm 
Celestion, and I really like the sound of it. But I "recently" received a 
Vibro Champ which wasn't working (same guy). After I got it going, it blew 
away my other Champ both in terms of volume and tone -- I came to the 
conclusion that the Champ I've had for a long time had its 4 ohm speaker 
replaced with some type of 8 ohm speaker (apparently this is a common problem 
with champs), so there must be somthin to this impedance thing.

Thinkin you should send the cabinet to Larry (to complete his Dual Showman), 
and the head to me (as scrap of course), though I don't know what I'd do with 
a 2 ohm head.
JB

>  synth1@... writes:
> But somebody put the "guts" in a custom Fender-ish
> case. Has Tung-Sol 6L6 output tubes, which means
> about 1967 (!?!). I'll post to rec.whatever and try to
> pin it down. 

Well, if they are the original tubes, the date code on the tubes might get
you close.  Back then, tubes didn't sit around on shelves for years. 
People used them,  Musicians ABused them.  :)

> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> As far as the black face goes, in the section of the book about Fender it

> says: "many of the black faced amps, even the few produced by the early
CBS 
> company are identical in specifications and performance. Only the very
early 
> silver faced amps suffered from engineering changes that made them less 
> desirable for players as compared to the previous generation of amps."

Hmmm.  My Dual Showman is one of the Silver faced ones.  I wonder how to
tell if I suffer from "early silver face syndrome."  I know I am certainly
suffering from " early solver hair syndrome."

From: JWBarlow@...
> 85 watts is what I remember too. If you are looking for a good single
book 
> for tube amps, then I strongly recommend this one. I got it several years
ago 
> at (the legendary) Mc Cabes Guitar Shop where it was recommended as the
best 
> amp book for a variety of different amps. It's about 750 pages, with
about 
> 450 pages (!!!) of different schematics (though almost no text about any 
> particular amp), I paid about $30 for mine, and I'm sure you can get them

> from Antique Electronics in AZ. It is made by the guys who make Groove
Tubes 
> so you get a lot of that stuff too -- sort of free advertising.
> 
> If you just want schematics for the Dual Showman, I could photocopy those
off 
> for you (there are a few different schematics, though I don't see any 
> noticeable difference in general), though in the book they are about half

> scale so they might not show up so well on an enlargement.

Thanks. I'll look for the book.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> Thinkin you should send the cabinet to Larry (to complete his Dual
Showman), 
> and the head to me (as scrap of course), though I don't know what I'd do
with 
> a 2 ohm head.
> JB

Reminds me of my favorite stupid impedance matching story.  Back in the
early days (15-16 years old), before any of us long-haired musicians knew
anything about electronics, I was in a pretty decent band.  We just bought
a big new PA system.  The cabinets were 8 ohm 3 way passive crossover EVs
with the folded W bass bins (very nice for the time).  The power amp was
the "you cannot tear up this amp" Sunn Coliseum "slave" head as they were
called in those days.  The guy at the music store had one he used for
demos.  He always started by dropping the head from cabinet height to the
floor.  The cabinet looked like hell, but it always worked when he picked
it up and plugged it in.  Anyway, the rated output for the amp was 2 ohms. 
Little did we know that meant 4 or 8 was fine (just less power).  So, since
we only had 2 cabinets, the music store fixed us up with 8 ohm power
resistors at the cabinet connected in parallel.  Ta da, instant fix!! 
Hell, we didn't know any better.  We were about 1/2 way through the first
song at the first gig and these resistors are on putting out smoke and fire
(go figure).  So, we disconnected them an finished the gig.  The guy at the
music store assured us we needed to match the impedance or damage the amp
and made us custom "Y" cords each with two 1/4 plugs and one 1/4 jack.  The
two plugs went into the amp and the cabinet plugged into the jack.  Since
each cabinet impedance (8 ohms) now appeared twice at the amp output, we
were officially down to 2 ohms.  Ain't that magic??  We were too stupid to
know any better and used those special "Y" cords for a year before I
learned that we were accomplishing nothing.

Sorry to ramble, but I thought it was funny.
Larry (who dated Mary Jane in High school) Hendry