MOTM

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> Actually, when I "undig" in about 2 weeks I'll have
> the sheet metal shop quote a 12U "end buttable"
> rail with the small bend radius used on the 19A
> rails. These will have a wider back flange with 
> countersunk holes for wood screws. You can line
> them up end-to-end as long as your heart's content.

I would be very interested in these rails.  I agree that 12U end buttable
would be a decent length or maybe about 14U.  I think it would be nice if
you could get the length to 1/2 the longest expected span.  I mention 14U
because I recall that Dave B was going to be about 26 (maybe my memory
ain't so good).  Could you get them to 14U without going to the expensive
brake?

I would NOT countersink the holes on the back flange.  Some of these might
be bolted back to back instead of screwed to wood.  Anyone wanting to screw
to wood can - 1:countersink them himself, 2: use sheet metal screws into
wood like a true American.

> The "problem" still remains about a 'double row' 
> system without some flat board in-between to 
> screw the rails to.

Actually, I don't see this as a problem. Each case builder may deal with
this in his own way.  For me, I plan to have my multiple row (magic bus) in
between.  However, even of a person only wanted to bolt two rows back to
back, it still works OK if you do the splicing correctly.  Splice as shown:

upper row: = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = =
lower row: = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = =

This shows how four 12 space rails could be spliced, cutting one of them
into two 6-space units causing the lower splices to be staggered from the
upper splice.  The splice points would be user selectable based on width. 
It would be cool if the mounting holes on the long flange side were in
multiples of unit width so they would line up for any varied width (one
every 1.75").

For Barlow, he gets by with 3 rails in the middle (sell them in pairs
though so he has to buy an extra one).

upper: = = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = =  14+7
lower: = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = =   7+14

Three of the 14u rails with staggered splices gets 21 units wide.  Of
course, I am making a dangerous assumption that the Curly stooge can
operate a metal saw.
 
And, of course, this still leaves open the "anything in-between option."

upper: = = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
tween:++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
lower: = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = =

The "tween" stuff could be wood, or a horizontal multiple strip like I have
planned for mine.  No jokes about "taint" here... OK.

> I could make a long (24U) flat piece with 2 horizontal
> rows (like 2 19As's welded together) and assume that
> the stiffness of the panels, coupled with screwed-in-wood
> top and bottom rails is sufficient to support 2 rows
> without "bowing".  

I think that would work, but the flat bar would not be near as strong as
two rails bolted back-to-back like I have suggested above.

Stooge Larry

1. Need 12U, end buttable for a total of 24U (I misquoted my cab earlier,
it's actually 24U). This takes care of top and bottom rails easily.

2. Need some workable solution for a center rail in a 2 module high cab.
Gaps between the rows are NOT acceptable cosmetically. This system is too
nice to allow that. So we need rails with short sharp radius bends, that
have the holes spaced back from the edge such that you can bolt the module
right to the edge of the rail. If the 12U rails mentioned in (1) above
satisfy this criterion, then we can just use them bolted together back to
back for the center rail.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

>
> From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>
> > From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> >
> > Actually, when I "undig" in about 2 weeks I'll have
> > the sheet metal shop quote a 12U "end buttable"
> > rail with the small bend radius used on the 19A
> > rails. These will have a wider back flange with
> > countersunk holes for wood screws. You can line
> > them up end-to-end as long as your heart's content.
>
> I would be very interested in these rails.  I agree that 12U end buttable
> would be a decent length or maybe about 14U.  I think it would be nice if
> you could get the length to 1/2 the longest expected span.  I mention 14U
> because I recall that Dave B was going to be about 26 (maybe my memory
> ain't so good).  Could you get them to 14U without going to the expensive
> brake?
>
> I would NOT countersink the holes on the back flange.  Some of these might
> be bolted back to back instead of screwed to wood.  Anyone
> wanting to screw
> to wood can - 1:countersink them himself, 2: use sheet metal screws into
> wood like a true American.
>
> > The "problem" still remains about a 'double row'
> > system without some flat board in-between to
> > screw the rails to.
>
> Actually, I don't see this as a problem. Each case builder may deal with
> this in his own way.  For me, I plan to have my multiple row
> (magic bus) in
> between.  However, even of a person only wanted to bolt two rows back to
> back, it still works OK if you do the splicing correctly.  Splice
> as shown:
>
> upper row: = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = =
> lower row: = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = =
>
> This shows how four 12 space rails could be spliced, cutting one of them
> into two 6-space units causing the lower splices to be staggered from the
> upper splice.  The splice points would be user selectable based on width.
> It would be cool if the mounting holes on the long flange side were in
> multiples of unit width so they would line up for any varied width (one
> every 1.75").
>
> For Barlow, he gets by with 3 rails in the middle (sell them in pairs
> though so he has to buy an extra one).
>
> upper: = = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = =  14+7
> lower: = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = =   7+14
>
> Three of the 14u rails with staggered splices gets 21 units wide.  Of
> course, I am making a dangerous assumption that the Curly stooge can
> operate a metal saw.
>
> And, of course, this still leaves open the "anything in-between option."
>
> upper: = = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> tween:++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> lower: = = = = = = =s= = = = = = = = = = = = = =s= = = = = = =
>
> The "tween" stuff could be wood, or a horizontal multiple strip
> like I have
> planned for mine.  No jokes about "taint" here... OK.
>
> > I could make a long (24U) flat piece with 2 horizontal
> > rows (like 2 19As's welded together) and assume that
> > the stiffness of the panels, coupled with screwed-in-wood
> > top and bottom rails is sufficient to support 2 rows
> > without "bowing".
>
> I think that would work, but the flat bar would not be near as strong as
> two rails bolted back-to-back like I have suggested above.
>
> Stooge Larry
>
> >

> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
> 
> 1. Need 12U, end buttable for a total of 24U (I misquoted my cab earlier,
> it's actually 24U). This takes care of top and bottom rails easily.

Ahh Moe.... I'm really disappointed to hear you may have made a mistake. 
:)  
 
> 2. Need some workable solution for a center rail in a 2 module high cab.
> Gaps between the rows are NOT acceptable cosmetically. This system is too
> nice to allow that. So we need rails with short sharp radius bends, that
> have the holes spaced back from the edge such that you can bolt the
module
> right to the edge of the rail. If the 12U rails mentioned in (1) above
> satisfy this criterion, then we can just use them bolted together back to
> back for the center rail.

It sure looks like they would work to me Moe.  If you bolt the existing 19"
rails together, they leave no gap.  So, as I understand it, we are talking
about exactly the same hardware except with the rack ears cut off and 12U
wide instead of 10U.

Stooge (I thought I had made a mistake once, but was wrong) Larry

In a message dated 10/22/99 11:49:39 AM, daveb@... writes:
>1. Need 12U, end buttable for a total of 24U (I misquoted my cab earlier,
>it's actually 24U). This takes care of top and bottom rails easily.

It sounds like 12U would be the best solution for all of us, given that we 
can't get them any wider.

>2. Need some workable solution for a center rail in a 2 module high cab.
>Gaps between the rows are NOT acceptable cosmetically. This system is too
>nice to allow that. So we need rails with short sharp radius bends, that
>have the holes spaced back from the edge such that you can bolt the module
>right to the edge of the rail. If the 12U rails mentioned in (1) above
>satisfy this criterion, then we can just use them bolted together back
>to
>back for the center rail.

It seems that gaps would only be a problem for those who don't use Larry's 
Magic Bus strip idea (since the bus itself would introduce a gap which would 
have to be dealt with) -- maybe we need to get a count on this to see if 
anyone other than Larry and I are interested in the bus.

Strength probably won't be an issue with two of the welded rails bolted 
together (or bolted to Larry's Bus strip) since they are so dang strong 
anyway, and will be stronger if the mounting flange is made wider, and 
stronger still when bolted together.

Here's a couple more thoughts: 

1) THE SLOPED CABINET PROBLEM. I do seem to remember there being a fair 
interest in having a sloped cabinet like the Moog 35. I wonder if the rails 
could be offered in <gulp> two different styles: one a 90 degree bend and the 
other a sloped bend. Maybe there's another way around this.

2) JOINING THE RAILS TO THE CABINET SIDES. Possibly using largish (maybe 3") 
"L" brackets -- this might also provide a solution to mounting the top and 
bottom rails in a sloped front cabinet configuration.

It seems as though there is an interest with cabinet rails. I know I'll be 
interested in seeing what Paul comes up with -- especially since I just ran 
out of room for more MOTM with my rack rails, and when Paul sends that 
miscellaneous box out to me....
John B.

I sent this earlier today, but it apparently didn't make it, so here it is:

In a message dated 10/22/99 11:49:39 AM, daveb@... writes:
>1. Need 12U, end buttable for a total of 24U (I misquoted my cab earlier,
>it's actually 24U). This takes care of top and bottom rails easily.

It sounds like 12U would be the best solution for all of us, given that we 
can't get them any wider.

>2. Need some workable solution for a center rail in a 2 module high cab.
>Gaps between the rows are NOT acceptable cosmetically. This system is too
>nice to allow that. So we need rails with short sharp radius bends, that
>have the holes spaced back from the edge such that you can bolt the module
>right to the edge of the rail. If the 12U rails mentioned in (1) above
>satisfy this criterion, then we can just use them bolted together back
>to
>back for the center rail.

It seems that gaps would only be a problem for those who don't use Larry's 
Magic Bus strip idea (since the bus itself would introduce a gap which would 
have to be dealt with) -- maybe we need to get a count on this to see if 
anyone other than Larry and I are interested in the bus.

Strength probably won't be an issue with two of the welded rails bolted 
together (or bolted to Larry's Bus strip) since they are so dang strong 
anyway, and will be stronger if the mounting flange is made wider, and 
stronger still when bolted together.

Here's a couple more thoughts: 

1) THE SLOPED CABINET PROBLEM. I do seem to remember there being a fair 
interest in having a sloped cabinet like the Moog 35. I wonder if the rails 
could be offered in <gulp> two different styles: one a 90 degree bend and the 
other a sloped bend. Maybe there's another way around this.

2) JOINING THE RAILS TO THE CABINET SIDES. Possibly using largish (maybe 3") 
"L" brackets -- this might also provide a solution to mounting the top and 
bottom rails in a sloped front cabinet configuration.

It seems as though there is an interest with cabinet rails. I know I'll be 
interested in seeing what Paul comes up with -- especially since I just ran 
out of room for more MOTM with my rack rails, and when Paul sends that 
miscellaneous box out to me....
John B.

> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> It seems that gaps would only be a problem for those
> who don't use Larry's Magic Bus strip idea (since the
> bus itself would introduce a gap which would have to be
> dealt with) -- maybe we need to get a count on this to see
> if anyone other than Larry and I are interested in the bus.

Actually, I disagree with what I think you might be saying here.  When Paul
talked about a wider flange, I interpreted that as more depth.  If you take
two of Paul's rails now, and connect them back to back (same as when in the
rack) there is no gap between the panels.  If I understood Paul right, the
new rails would have that same bend radius so that there would be no gap
when bolted back to back.

As far as the magic bus horizontal multiple strip, there will be no gap
there either.  I plan to attach the rails slightly offset back to the side
of the horizontal strip so that the front of the horizontal strip will
actually be exactly even with the front of the MOTM panels without any gap.
 I have tried this with Paul's existing strips and it works fine. If the
new ones are essentially the same bend but 12U instead of 10 without the
rack flanges, I am set.
 
> Strength probably won't be an issue with two of the
> welded rails bolted together (or bolted to Larry's Bus
> strip) since they are so dang strong anyway, and will
> be stronger if the mounting flange is made wider, and 
> stronger still when bolted together.

I agree.  No middle support will be needed.

> Here's a couple more thoughts: 
> 
> 1) THE SLOPED CABINET PROBLEM. I do seem to
> remember there being a fair interest in having a sloped
> cabinet like the Moog 35. I wonder if the rails could be
> offered in <gulp> two different styles: one a 90 degree
> bend and the other a sloped bend. Maybe there's
> another way around this.

I have actually thought about this some too.  If you look at the actual
slope of the front, it is not a big issue.  It appears to me that this
could easily be fixed by taking a router to the inside of the cabinet and
cutting the slight angle (number will vary by cabinet design) into the
inside of the cabinet wood.
 
> 2) JOINING THE RAILS TO THE CABINET SIDES. Possibly using largish (maybe
3") 
> "L" brackets -- this might also provide a solution to mounting the top
and 
> bottom rails in a sloped front cabinet configuration.
> 
> It seems as though there is an interest with cabinet rails. I know I'll
be 
> interested in seeing what Paul comes up with -- especially since I just
ran 
> out of room for more MOTM with my rack rails, and when Paul sends that 
> miscellaneous box out to me....
> John B.

Certainly, I am interested in the recent 12U cabinet rails that Paul
described.  However, I still have plenty of room, so I am not in a hurry. 
However, it sounds like two of the stooges may interested in similar
cabinet designs.  My lower cabinet will be 2 rows 24U wide (sloped).  My
top cabinet will be 1 row 24U wide (not sloped).  Each will have one magic
bus 12 X 4 multiple.  Additionally, I have two lower cabinets planned that
will sit side by side under the lower cabinet.  These cabinets will be
standard 19" racks X 5 units.  I can put rack effects of whatever in them
(or more MOTM with Paul's rack rails).  Since they could be stacked to 10U
of standard 19" stuff, they could have stuff I use with my MOTM and stuff
that goes out without MOTM.

Larry H

I'm telling you, this list is haunted! I sent this a long time ago.

DIE e-mail DIE!



In a message dated 10/31/99 7:37:54 PM, JWBarlow@... writes:

>In a message dated 10/22/99 11:49:39 AM, daveb@... writes:
>>1. Need 12U, end buttable for a total of 24U (I misquoted my cab earlier,
>>it's actually 24U). This takes care of top and bottom rails easily.
>
>It sounds like 12U would be the best solution for all of us, given that
>we 
>can't get them any wider.
>
>>2. Need some workable solution for a center rail in a 2 module high cab.
>>Gaps between the rows are NOT acceptable cosmetically. This system is
>too
>>nice to allow that. So we need rails with short sharp radius bends, that
>>have the holes spaced back from the edge such that you can bolt the module
>>right to the edge of the rail. If the 12U rails mentioned in (1) above
>>satisfy this criterion, then we can just use them bolted together back
>>to
>>back for the center rail.
>
>It seems that gaps would only be a problem for those who don't use Larry's
>
>Magic Bus strip idea (since the bus itself would introduce a gap which
>would 
>have to be dealt with) -- maybe we need to get a count on this to see if
>
>anyone other than Larry and I are interested in the bus.
>
>Strength probably won't be an issue with two of the welded rails bolted
>
>together (or bolted to Larry's Bus strip) since they are so dang strong
>
>anyway, and will be stronger if the mounting flange is made wider, and
>
>stronger still when bolted together.
>
>Here's a couple more thoughts: 
>
>1) THE SLOPED CABINET PROBLEM. I do seem to remember there being a fair
>
>interest in having a sloped cabinet like the Moog 35. I wonder if the rails
>
>could be offered in <gulp> two different styles: one a 90 degree bend and
>the 
>other a sloped bend. Maybe there's another way around this.
>
>2) JOINING THE RAILS TO THE CABINET SIDES. Possibly using largish (maybe
>3") 
>"L" brackets -- this might also provide a solution to mounting the top
>and 
>bottom rails in a sloped front cabinet configuration.
>
>It seems as though there is an interest with cabinet rails. I know I'll
>be 
>interested in seeing what Paul comes up with -- especially since I just
>ran 
>out of room for more MOTM with my rack rails, and when Paul sends that
>
>miscellaneous box out to me....
>John B.
>

Really? You can't find rails longer than 12U? Hmm, I'll have to look around.
I have some rails that I bout 10 years ago (don't remember where) that are,
no lie, seven feet long!

Can you at least but them together to make 24? Personally, I'm using 10U,
but I feel sure there are longer lengths out there somewhere. I hear
Sweetwater Sound has decent deals (now that I bought 50 pounds of 'em from
Tech America...argh!).


		-----Original Message-----
		From:	JWBarlow@... [mailto:JWBarlow@...]
		It sounds like 12U would be the best solution for all of us,
given that we 
		can't get them any wider.