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Additive Synth Tools

Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by paulhaneberg

I have been playing around a lot with additive synthesis on the MOTM 
using a number of oscillators.  I am wondering if anyone has any 
suggestions for a piece of software capable of doing analysis of a 
single note played by a particular instrument, for example a wav 
file of a sax.  I am looking for something that can give me a time 
varying spectra so that I can see the individual envelopes of each 
harmonic as well as determine the individual harmonic amplitudes.  I 
have been using SpectraFoo inside my ProTools setup.  Although it 
works rather well for giving me an average relationship between 
harmonics, it does not show the time varying relationship.  Also 
helpful would be if anyone knows of a source (book or website) for 
this sort of information in a quantitative form, not just some 
general looking graphs.

I have also been contemplating trying to build a MOTM style Fourier 
series generator.  This is a big design project, so I'm asking if 
anyone has any ideas to let me know.  I'd rather not reinvent the 
wheel.  I do realize I can do this sort of thing with a lot of MOTM 
oscillators (as I did on the ELP thing) but I'd like to find 
something a little lower in cost than buying 16 MOTM300s ;)  
And it's not easy to tune a number of 300s precisely enough to get a 
good harmonic series even using sync.  (I've found it is difficult 
to get sync once you get above the 8th harmonic, at least on certain 
partials.)

My idea is to take the triangle output of a MOTM300 and frequency 
multiply it using a series of rectifiers and amplifiers up to 
perhaps 256 times the original frequency.  (A rectified triangle 
wave is a triangle wave at twice the frequency of the original.)
The resulting waveform would be transformed into a clock signal 
driving a series of counters which would count from 0 to 255 then 
reset.  Each counter would address a sine wave lookup table with a 
single sine wave divided into 256 increments.  Each counter would 
increment by an amount equal to the harmonic it was generating.  For 
instance the 3rd harmonic counter would increment by three on each 
pulse, the 13th harmonic counter would increment by 13 each pulse.
This would create a series of sine waves albeit digitally produced 
which would then be filtered down so that there would be individual 
outputs for each harmonic.  Presumably the whole thing would be 
multiplexed and perhaps implemented within a PIC if it's capable of 
going fast enough.

The harmonics above the audio range would not necessarily need to be 
reproduced so perhaps the original frequency could be detected and 
used as a means of determining which harmonics were too high to be 
useful and not reproduced thus saving overhead on the processor.

Each output would have its own attenuator, and ideally each would be 
fed into a VCA with and EG, I think a VCF driven by and EG could 
substitute as upper harmonics tend to decay faster than lower ones 
almost without exception. 

I would think such a module would be very useful and interesting to 
play around with although I'm sure someone will suggest I get a 
Kawai K5000.  (I have one.)

Re: [motm] Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by Paul Schreiber

a) Such tools are used all the time at IRCAM, dating back to 1985. If you poke around enough, I
bet you will find them. Jean-Claude Risset and Barry Truaxe (I think....) were the two people
doing this. I have old issues of Computer Music Journal with 'waterfall' diagrams (what they are
called) for trumpets and clarinets. There may be a waterfall plug-in for SpectraFoo.

b) in hardware, what you need as a modified version of the Cloud Generator (cough cough). I don't
want to give away too much, but such a Fourier series thing is best done in (gasp) DSP.

Paul S.

Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by paulhaneberg

I'm familiar with waterfall diagrams.  I've always been fascinated 
by additive synthesis and Fourier analysis.  For my senior project 
in college I developed hardware and software for doing Fourier 
analysis.  This was in the 70s.  I think the A to D converter was 10 
bits (which was the best I could come up with at the time) and the 
software (which was FFT based) was implemented on a VAX!!!

I have to admit you've really piqued my curiosity about the cloud 
generator.

RE: [motm] Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by Les Mizzell

:: b) in hardware, what you need as a modified version of the
:: Cloud Generator (cough cough). I don't want to give away
:: too much, but such a Fourier series thing is best done in (gasp) DSP.


Well, I was going to ask about just this such use for the Cloud Generator,
but was waiting until you released a little more details on the beast.

However, you've now opened that door yourself!

Care to elaborate?


Thanks,

Les Mizzell

Re: [motm] Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by Paul Schreiber

>
> Well, I was going to ask about just this such use for the Cloud Generator,
> but was waiting until you released a little more details on the beast.
>
> However, you've now opened that door yourself!


The basic design is called a "phase accumulator". It's used in the DX-7 and in the Synergy. A
modified version of it is also used in the Eventide Harmonizers to do the pitch shifting.
Basically, the hardware is an adder and a register. The waveform is in an EPROM. You index
through the EPROM by 'skipping' samples at a *constant rate*. This is different from a MiniWave,
where you are indexing sequentially through the wavetable at a *variable rate*.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-06 by J. Larry Hendry

Well, I do have one suggestion you may want to consider as an inexpensive
way to get very finite control of generating these harmonics of various
amplitudes.  The resulting waves can then be burned into EPROM and used in
the Miniwave.  I have actual recently been successful doing this and having
another list member burn the PROM.

Korg made only 2 sampling instruments before they bowed out of that market
and moved toward sample ROMS (i.e. just before the M1)  One of those
instruments was the DSS-1.  It was a unique instrument that was a 100%
analog synth except the oscillators were digital waveforms.  The waveform
source could be from one of three sources:  1= actual sampled sounds, 2 =
draw your own wave form, and 3 =  harmonic synthesis.  You could select the
fundamental and any of the first 128 harmonics of that frequency.  You could
individually specify the level of each harmonic is a resolution of 0 to 255.
each time you added a new harmonic, the DSS-1 would calculate the resulting
wave and create a new composite wave.

Korg did a lot of this to produce single cycle waves for use as oscillator
waves in their synth.  For example, they have a "voice wave" and an "organ
wave"  The organ wave has the kind of harmonics you would expect to see in
drawbar style organs.

Now, once these waves are created, they can easily be dumped to PC via MIDI
and converted to the 8 bit binary file required for the Miniwave PROMS.   I
took all the factory Korg single cycle waves and dumped them to this format
and have them in a PROM (thanks to another listmember). So, one could create
harmonic combinations all day long with the DSS-1 and dump them to PC for
Miniwave PROMs.  Of course, once in that format, everything is static.  But,
with the ability to sweep waves and banks in the Miniwave, that becomes very
useable.

Working condition DSS-1s sell for about $250 these days.  Many of them have
broken disk drives (which you don't need) for this feature and sell for much
less.

So, there is another already invented wheel you could consider.
Larry Hendry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: paulhaneberg <phaneber@...>
I have also been contemplating trying to build a MOTM style Fourier series
generator.  This is a big design project, so I'm asking if anyone has any
ideas to let me know.  I'd rather not reinvent the wheel.  I do realize I
can do this sort of thing with a lot of MOTM oscillators (as I did on the
ELP thing) but I'd like to find something a little lower in cost than buying
16 MOTM300s ;)  And it's not easy to tune a number of 300s precisely enough
to get a good harmonic series even using sync.  (I've found it is difficult
to get sync once you get above the 8th harmonic, at least on certain
partials.)

My idea is to take the triangle output of a MOTM300 and frequency multiply
it using a series of rectifiers and amplifiers up to
perhaps 256 times the original frequency.  (A rectified triangle wave is a
triangle wave at twice the frequency of the original.)
The resulting waveform would be transformed into a clock signal driving a
series of counters which would count from 0 to 255 then reset.  Each counter
would address a sine wave lookup table with a single sine wave divided into
256 increments.  Each counter would increment by an amount equal to the
harmonic it was generating.  For instance the 3rd harmonic counter would
increment by three on each pulse, the 13th harmonic counter would increment
by 13 each pulse.This would create a series of sine waves albeit digitally
produced which would then be filtered down so that there would be individual
outputs for each harmonic.  Presumably the whole thing would be multiplexed
and perhaps implemented within a PIC if it's capable of
going fast enough.

Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by Roger Rossen

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: paulhaneberg <phaneber@o...>
> I have also been contemplating trying to build a MOTM style Fourier 
series generator.  This is a big design project, so I'm asking if 
anyone has any ideas to let me know.  I'd rather not reinvent the 
wheel.  

Yet you will be doing so...

Just my input from some experience - you will be definitely 
reinventing the wheel (but please don't take this as a reason to stop 
the pursuit on what your looking for)

Additive synthesis has existed for quite awhile now- especially in 
the  academic sector  - 'modulars' or software based ones for that 
matter have been around for quite awhile.  I've played one down at 
Univ of IL back in the later seventies when I was going to go there 
after HS to major in the veterinary school (love animals) and was 
going to minor (diminish?) in Emusic.  Its a LOT of wanking around 
with minimal effect - my general proof: no major synth manuf. are 
pursuing it anymore.

And keep in mind - ALL motm vcos ARE fourier generating devices 
already - right? They do generate multiple integer harmonics up to 
infinity - eh? (if you can hear that high)- you just subtract off 
then with the filter thingys, right!

I had a good friend - good guy - but not totally an "expert 
synthesist" , mind you, per se - he dreamed of having 8000 sine wave 
VCOs (lotta knobs?) I told him he'd never even be able to get close 
to anything much better than the Kawais already out there...keep in 
mind however that once you 'leap' out of the fourier thinking, then 
you can get fairly off-the-wall, NON-harmonic, and possibly creative 
with it- 

Mr. Fourier really didn't do a whole lot musically speaking, (and he 
wasn't a musician to my knowledge)other than 'prove' that things like 
square, sawtooth, triangle waves, are composed from sines waves - big 
whoop - from a musical standpoint-eh?

Just further ramblings from a goofball who has long since gone crazy 
having TRIED all these things in his very obsessive, synthesis mind, 
making strange sounds kinda life.

I hope these are some words of wisdom for you.

Let the flaming begin! I can take it!
No just kidding really - don't do that!


Rog

Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by cormallen

> Additive synthesis has existed for quite a while now- especially in 
> the  academic sector  - 'modulars' or software based ones for that 
> matter have been around for quite awhile.  I've played one down at 
> Univ of IL back in the later seventies when I was going to go there 
> after HS to major in the veterinary school (love animals) and was 
> going to minor (diminish?) in Emusic.  Its a LOT of wanking around 
> with minimal effect - my general proof: no major synth manuf. are 
> pursuing it anymore.

I have a K5000 and it's a pretty cool synth, but for me the best part
of it is the formant filter, not the classical additive stuff.  Also,
it's extremely time-consuming to program.

That, I think, is the main problem with additive synthesis; there are
too many 'knobs', none of which make much noticable difference to the
sound.  To effect a broad timbral change requires altering dozens of
knobs at once.

I've been intrigued lately by the Neuron for just this reason. It
seems to be an attempt at a resynthesis scheme in which there are only
a few knobs, but where those few really change the sound dramatically,
and in quite novel ways.   Also, it's always nice to see something
genuinely original in synthesis...

(I recently wrote a little Linux app which uses genetic programming
techniques to 'breed' sounds in the fourier domain and which writes
the results out as samples - cool, semi-random stuff for when I have
*no idea* what sound I want in a piece.  The intention was to have it
write out Halion multisamples, but Steinberg won't release the Halion
file format.  If anyone's interested, I can port it to Windows pretty
easily...).

Harry

RE: [motm] Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by Paul Haneberg

It's not that I think additive synthesis is some new great idea.  I'm
well aware of the history and as I said I do own a Kawai.  I'm a control
freak.  I like having control over as many parameters of a sound as
possible, if for no other reason than asking the question of what
happens when I do this? And being able to answer it.
To achieve that goal, it would be musically useful to be able to
generate a Fourier Series with complete control over the amplitude of
each harmonic over time, which you certainly cannot do at present with
the MOTM. Having harmonically rich waveforms that can be modified with
subtractive synthesis is not the same thing. 
In addition with the design I am contemplating you would be able to
individually exert real-time control over the phase relationship of the
harmonics and would even be able to detune individual harmonics for more
percussive sounds.  All under voltage control.  As Paul S. pointed out,
my design is in fact a modified version of his cloud generator.  (I
would say great minds think alike, but I really don't put myself in the
same class as Paul S. when it comes to design.  Although we both are EEs
he has made his career out of it whereas I have diverted into other
pursuits.)
I'd also like to build an implementation of the DX7 in modular form, as
well as a completely modular vocoder, and I've been after Stooge Moe for
some time to get super-moe out there.  I've told Paul S. that the 450
should have individual outputs for each bank.  Why?  Because I am a
control freak.  I want to be able to experiment with my modular.  That's
a big part of the reason for having one.  I want to be able to ask what
if?  And find the answer.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Rossen [mailto:mididood@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 12:01 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Re: Additive Synth Tools

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: paulhaneberg <phaneber@o...>
> I have also been contemplating trying to build a MOTM style Fourier 
series generator.  This is a big design project, so I'm asking if 
anyone has any ideas to let me know.  I'd rather not reinvent the 
wheel.  

Yet you will be doing so...

Just my input from some experience - you will be definitely 
reinventing the wheel (but please don't take this as a reason to stop 
the pursuit on what your looking for)

Additive synthesis has existed for quite awhile now- especially in 
the  academic sector  - 'modulars' or software based ones for that 
matter have been around for quite awhile.  I've played one down at 
Univ of IL back in the later seventies when I was going to go there 
after HS to major in the veterinary school (love animals) and was 
going to minor (diminish?) in Emusic.  Its a LOT of wanking around 
with minimal effect - my general proof: no major synth manuf. are 
pursuing it anymore.

And keep in mind - ALL motm vcos ARE fourier generating devices 
already - right? They do generate multiple integer harmonics up to 
infinity - eh? (if you can hear that high)- you just subtract off 
then with the filter thingys, right!

I had a good friend - good guy - but not totally an "expert 
synthesist" , mind you, per se - he dreamed of having 8000 sine wave 
VCOs (lotta knobs?) I told him he'd never even be able to get close 
to anything much better than the Kawais already out there...keep in 
mind however that once you 'leap' out of the fourier thinking, then 
you can get fairly off-the-wall, NON-harmonic, and possibly creative 
with it- 

Mr. Fourier really didn't do a whole lot musically speaking, (and he 
wasn't a musician to my knowledge)other than 'prove' that things like 
square, sawtooth, triangle waves, are composed from sines waves - big 
whoop - from a musical standpoint-eh?

Just further ramblings from a goofball who has long since gone crazy 
having TRIED all these things in his very obsessive, synthesis mind, 
making strange sounds kinda life.

I hope these are some words of wisdom for you.

Let the flaming begin! I can take it!
No just kidding really - don't do that!


Rog




 

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[motm] Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by media.nai@rcn.com

At 4:54 AM +0000 5/7/03, cormallen wrote:
>  > Additive synthesis has existed for quite a while now- especially in
>  > the  academic sector  - 'modulars' or software based ones for that
>  > matter have been around for quite awhile.  I've played one down at
>  > Univ of IL back in the later seventies when I was going to go there
>  > after HS to major in the veterinary school (love animals) and was
>  > going to minor (diminish?) in Emusic.  Its a LOT of wanking around
>  > with minimal effect - my general proof: no major synth manuf. are
>  > pursuing it anymore.

While additive synthesis is very old (I have schematics for a tube
additive synth from 1931), and even if you ignore organs with
drawbars, there have been many electronic additive synths, such as
the Technos Axcel, Crumar, DK Synergy, etc, and a number of
"workstations" that included additive as part of their arsenal --
Fairlight, PPG, Synclavier, Kyma, etc.

Afaik, no major synth manufacturer is making FM, DCO, or top-octave
synths either.  So while I agree additive synthesis isn't that
practical ("a lot of wanking around with minimal effect"), I disagree
with your reasoning.

>I have a K5000 and it's a pretty cool synth, but for me the best part
>of it is the formant filter, not the classical additive stuff.  Also,
>it's extremely time-consuming to program.

For a while, I was thinking of buying a K5000R, but yes, they are
difficult to program and imho the sound is kind of weak.  I guess I
liked the idea that it did something different.

>That, I think, is the main problem with additive synthesis; there are
>too many 'knobs', none of which make much noticable difference to the
>sound.  To effect a broad timbral change requires altering dozens of
>knobs at once.

I agree, and I feel the same way about Chowning FM.  Even if you
took a DX7 and gave it a knob for every parameter, it still would be
a PITA to program.

I think both FM and additive synthesis are good candidates for software
control.  Like a cerebellum, the software would translate a
high-level command into a multitude of low-level changes, so an
ergonomic interface with a manageable amount of knobs and switches
could control the actual synth parameters.  Instead of having
hundreds of knobs for the actual parameters, it would have knobs for
qualities like Wood, Metal, Bright, Impulse, Shape, etc.  This would
allow the development of different user-selectable "skins" for the
same synth.

>I've been intrigued lately by the Neuron for just this reason. It
>seems to be an attempt at a resynthesis scheme in which there are only
>a few knobs, but where those few really change the sound dramatically,
>and in quite novel ways.   Also, it's always nice to see something
>genuinely original in synthesis...

I've read about it, but I haven't actually seen one.  Aren't they 
like $5K??  I'm extremely reluctant to spend that much $$$ on 
anything digital.

>(I recently wrote a little Linux app which uses genetic programming
>techniques to 'breed' sounds in the fourier domain and which writes
>the results out as samples - cool, semi-random stuff for when I have
>*no idea* what sound I want in a piece.  The intention was to have it
>write out Halion multisamples, but Steinberg won't release the Halion
>file format.  If anyone's interested, I can port it to Windows pretty
>easily...).

Porting it to OS X would be easier :)

Re: [motm] Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by Adam Schabtach

> I'd also like to build an implementation of the DX7 in modular form

FWIW, the Nord Modular can do this. (Yes, I know, it's not at all the same
thing as a MOTM--which is why I have both--but if you're looking for a DX7
in a modular form, there it is.)

--Adam

RE: [motm] Re: Additive Synth Tools

2003-05-07 by Les Mizzell

>>  I'd also like to build an implementation of the DX7 in modular form
> FWIW, the Nord Modular can do this.


...and just for the record - there's a HUGE archive of DX7 patches that have
been converted for use in the Nord as well, and they sound damn close to the
original, just not as noisy!

As to programming additive or FM, yes, it's tedious, but you've got a
considerable amount of control over your sound as well, so if you're
patient, the results can be worth it.

All it takes is one listen to "Beauty in the Beast" to realize that Wendy
Carlos achieved something amazing using additive synthesis (Crumar
GDS/Synergy platform).  Would I like to do this on a modular?  Uhhh...I'd
love to have that many modules, but I don't think it would be entirely
practical that way.

My two cents worth.

Les

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