MOTM

In a message dated 5/3/2003 5:57:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
gion2archery@... writes:

> Hove a question and I know it is stupid,  I don't
> understand how a sequencer works?  I know in the who
> next album they used a sequencer on wont get fooled
> again,  do you play a note in it and it records it? 
> then I would thind it is a recorder???
> Excuse my stupidity, but maybe there are others like
> me who are afraid to ask these stupid questions?
> and believe me I have allot of them.
> 

I haven't seen an answer to this so I'll try to give it a go.

A "traditional" analog sequencer (like the Miton which I just posted about, 
the fabled SuperMoe, Moog 960 (?), Serge TKB, and the long illusive MOAS) has 
at least one row of pots arranged in stages (typically 8 to 16). Each pot is 
used to set a voltage which then shows up at the sequencer output when that 
stage is selected. I think these were essentially invented by Don Buchla.

If you run a simple clock at 1Hz to 2Hz into a sequencer controlling a VCO 
you get that -- bleep bloop beep beep blap bleep bloop beep beep blap -- 1967 
"SOUND OF THE FUTURE" which grows so tiring after a few short moments. The 
best examples of this that I can think of off hand are Pink Floyd's Dark Side 
of the Moon (I can't remember the name of the track since I'm the one guy 
that never bought that record) and the end of ELP's Brain Salad Surgery Karn 
Evil 9. If the sequencer has multiple rows of pots, you can then have 
harmonic bloops and bleeps or use the rows to control timbre or dynamics as 
simple examples.

But many more powerful things can be done just by making use of up/down, hold 
reset, and random/psuedo random features. For examples of this kind of use I 
suggest (as always) look at the early EM records of Morton Subotnick like 
Silver Apples of the Moon, Touch, The Wild Bull.

In an analog sequencer the voltages can said to be recorded as potentiometer 
settings. Another kind of sequencer exists called a digital sequencer. I know 
ARP made one of these, and I believe they used a simple micro processor to 
digitally store voltages at the inputs and the duration of those voltages. 
The only sequencer I've used like this was a (then) powerful micro processor 
based keyboard on a large Emu modular. It was polyphonic but I don't think it 
had any ability to edit any part of the sequence -- it was very useful for 
storing keyboard performances, but not very useful beyond that. That kind of 
keyboard based sequencer was completely doomed when MID came along. Moe can 
tell you more about both the Emu and the different kinds of sequencers (he 
also refers to two kinds of sequencers: one is a "step sequencer", and the 
other one ....... isn't -- Moe?)

The digital sequencer which Paul is releasing looks to be a very powerful 
controlling instrument (much more than the Emu one I describe) with many of 
the features of an analog sequencer. I have to admit that I only read a 
little bit about it and then ordered one. I'm sure I'll enjoy using it and it 
will be much easier to understand how many uses it has when I can try it out.

Hope that helped somewhat.
JB

Just to muddy the Waters (heh) a bit: Karnevil #9 was actually done 
with the output of a sample&hold to the FM input of a filter (I 
think I read that in  a long-ago keyboard interview with KE's 
tech).  But that's *not* to say that same effect couldn't be 
achieved with a sequencer - the pattern would just be more 
repetitive.

In the guitar world, the AdrenaLinn is a very cool device that uses 
a sequencers to modify the parameters of various well-known guitar 
effects.  The results are spectacular, particularly when the 
sequencer is sync'd to the tempo of the tune.  Move over all you 
keyboard players (oops, now I'm in for it).

More boring syuff: when the AdrenaLinn first came out, I REALLY 
REALLY wanted one but I had an addiction problem (MOTM).  So 
instead, I hooked my guitar through a 440 gated by an 800 driven by 
a 101 and got really nice results.  I put the output of that through 
either an Oakley Equinoxe or a 410 for more funkiness.  Coolio!

Mike

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, jwbarlow@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/2003 5:57:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> gion2archery@y... writes:
> 
> > Hove a question and I know it is stupid,  I don't
> > understand how a sequencer works?  I know in the who
> > next album they used a sequencer on wont get fooled
> > again,  do you play a note in it and it records it? 
> > then I would thind it is a recorder???
> > Excuse my stupidity, but maybe there are others like
> > me who are afraid to ask these stupid questions?
> > and believe me I have allot of them.
> > 
> 
> I haven't seen an answer to this so I'll try to give it a go.
> 
> A "traditional" analog sequencer (like the Miton which I just 
posted about, 
> the fabled SuperMoe, Moog 960 (?), Serge TKB, and the long 
illusive MOAS) has 
> at least one row of pots arranged in stages (typically 8 to 16). 
Each pot is 
> used to set a voltage which then shows up at the sequencer output 
when that 
> stage is selected. I think these were essentially invented by Don 
Buchla.
> 
> If you run a simple clock at 1Hz to 2Hz into a sequencer 
controlling a VCO 
> you get that -- bleep bloop beep beep blap bleep bloop beep beep 
blap -- 1967 
> "SOUND OF THE FUTURE" which grows so tiring after a few short 
moments. The 
> best examples of this that I can think of off hand are Pink 
Floyd's Dark Side 
> of the Moon (I can't remember the name of the track since I'm the 
one guy 
> that never bought that record) and the end of ELP's Brain Salad 
Surgery Karn 
> Evil 9. If the sequencer has multiple rows of pots, you can then 
have 
> harmonic bloops and bleeps or use the rows to control timbre or 
dynamics as 
> simple examples.
> 
> But many more powerful things can be done just by making use of 
up/down, hold 
> reset, and random/psuedo random features. For examples of this 
kind of use I 
> suggest (as always) look at the early EM records of Morton 
Subotnick like 
> Silver Apples of the Moon, Touch, The Wild Bull.
> 
> In an analog sequencer the voltages can said to be recorded as 
potentiometer 
> settings. Another kind of sequencer exists called a digital 
sequencer. I know 
> ARP made one of these, and I believe they used a simple micro 
processor to 
> digitally store voltages at the inputs and the duration of those 
voltages. 
> The only sequencer I've used like this was a (then) powerful micro 
processor 
> based keyboard on a large Emu modular. It was polyphonic but I 
don't think it 
> had any ability to edit any part of the sequence -- it was very 
useful for 
> storing keyboard performances, but not very useful beyond that. 
That kind of 
> keyboard based sequencer was completely doomed when MID came 
along. Moe can 
> tell you more about both the Emu and the different kinds of 
sequencers (he 
> also refers to two kinds of sequencers: one is a "step sequencer", 
and the 
> other one ....... isn't -- Moe?)
> 
> The digital sequencer which Paul is releasing looks to be a very 
powerful 
> controlling instrument (much more than the Emu one I describe) 
with many of 
> the features of an analog sequencer. I have to admit that I only 
read a 
> little bit about it and then ordered one. I'm sure I'll enjoy 
using it and it 
> will be much easier to understand how many uses it has when I can 
try it out.

> 
> Hope that helped somewhat.
> JB

In a message dated 5/3/2003 4:28:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mmarsh@... writes:

> Karnevil #9 was actually done 
> with the output of a sample&hold to the FM input of a filter (I 
> think I read that in  a long-ago keyboard interview with KE's 
> tech).  But that's *not* to say that same effect couldn't be 
> achieved with a sequencer - the pattern would just be more 
> repetitive.
> 

Actually, I meant the very end of the record (where the Moog goes crazy and 
blows up with all the smoke coming out of it, and the sequence spins around 
your head in ... QUAROPHONIC!!) not the "Welcome back my friends..." bit.

> In the guitar world, the AdrenaLinn is a very cool device that uses 
> a sequencers to modify the parameters of various well-known guitar 
> effects.  The results are spectacular, particularly when the 
> sequencer is sync'd to the tempo of the tune.  Move over all you 
> keyboard players (oops, now I'm in for it).
> 
> More boring syuff: when the AdrenaLinn first came out, I REALLY 
> REALLY wanted one but I had an addiction problem (MOTM).  So 
> instead, I hooked my guitar through a 440 gated by an 800 driven by 
> a 101 and got really nice results.  I put the output of that through 
> either an Oakley Equinoxe or a 410 for more funkiness.  Coolio!
> 

I'd very much like to check this out. There are actually quite a few of us 
geetar players out here in MOTM land and we're ready to take on all them 
keyboard players!

JB

Does anyone know how those distorted steal drum sounds were made in 
the 2nd Impression in Karnevil 9.  They sound amazing.  Anyone got 
any ideas?

John

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Marsh" <mmarsh@w...> wrote:
> Just to muddy the Waters (heh) a bit: Karnevil #9 was actually 
done 

> with the output of a sample&hold to the FM input of a filter (I 
> think I read that in  a long-ago keyboard interview with KE's 
> tech).  But that's *not* to say that same effect couldn't be 
> achieved with a sequencer - the pattern would just be more 
> repetitive.
>

AFAIK, they are done on a Minimoog with osc. modulating the filter and 
probably osc. 1&2.  It may also use the feedback path trick to get more 
overloading.  I haven't tried to duplicate it myself...Hmmm...gazes over at 
the Minimoog in the corner...

         Eric


At 12:56 AM 5/4/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>Does anyone know how those distorted steal drum sounds were made in
>the 2nd Impression in Karnevil 9.  They sound amazing.  Anyone got
>any ideas?
>
>John
>
>--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Marsh" <mmarsh@w...> wrote:
> > Just to muddy the Waters (heh) a bit: Karnevil #9 was actually
>done
> > with the output of a sample&hold to the FM input of a filter (I
> > think I read that in  a long-ago keyboard interview with KE's
> > tech).  But that's *not* to say that same effect couldn't be
> > achieved with a sequencer - the pattern would just be more
> > repetitive.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Oops, sorry, my bad!  Yes the end is fantastic, too.  That's one of 
my favorite pop-type synth pieces.

I'll post a few MP3s to the files section so you can hear what I 
did.  I'll also post one that I did with an Oakley filter (the 
svf).  The key is a good envelope follower/gate extractor and Tony 
makes a great one.

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, jwbarlow@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/2003 4:28:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> mmarsh@w... writes:
> 
> > Karnevil #9 was actually done 
> > with the output of a sample&hold to the FM input of a filter (I 
> > think I read that in  a long-ago keyboard interview with KE's 
> > tech).  But that's *not* to say that same effect couldn't be 
> > achieved with a sequencer - the pattern would just be more 
> > repetitive.
> > 
> 
> Actually, I meant the very end of the record (where the Moog goes 
crazy and 
> blows up with all the smoke coming out of it, and the sequence 
spins around 
> your head in ... QUAROPHONIC!!) not the "Welcome back my 
friends..." bit.
> 
> > In the guitar world, the AdrenaLinn is a very cool device that 
uses 
> > a sequencers to modify the parameters of various well-known 
guitar 
> > effects.  The results are spectacular, particularly when the 
> > sequencer is sync'd to the tempo of the tune.  Move over all you 
> > keyboard players (oops, now I'm in for it).
> > 
> > More boring syuff: when the AdrenaLinn first came out, I REALLY 
> > REALLY wanted one but I had an addiction problem (MOTM).  So 
> > instead, I hooked my guitar through a 440 gated by an 800 driven 
by 
> > a 101 and got really nice results.  I put the output of that 
through 
> > either an Oakley Equinoxe or a 410 for more funkiness.  Coolio!
> > 
> 
> I'd very much like to check this out. There are actually quite a 
few of us 
> geetar players out here in MOTM land and we're ready to take on 
all them 

> keyboard players!
> 
> JB

hey Paul -

when are we going to see an envelope follower? or will the vc lag do that?

>>when are we going to see an envelope follower?

It's on the "new modules for this fall" list, along with the triple pre-amp. I am going
back-and-forth between 2 designs: a standard MOTM-level design and another totally-insane-level
design.

Paul S.

Hey, that microtonal link is pretty good.  But it doesn't list the MOTM!

I'm bookmarking the page, especially for the scales.  Too bad it doesn't 
list volts in addition to fractions and cents.  There must exist a formula 
to convert from cents to volts. . ..

-- celeste


________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:20:08 -0500

   From: "John Loffink" <jloffink@...>
Subject: RE: sequencers (was Demographics)

Raymond Scott is credited with inventing the sequencer,
http://raymondscott.com/1946.htm , though Buchla's development may have
been independent of that.
John Loffink
jloffink@...

The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

The Wavemakers Modular and Integrated Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com/
A "traditional" analog sequencer (like the Miton which I just posted
about, the fabled SuperMoe, Moog 960 (?), Serge TKB, and the long
illusive MOAS) has at least one row of pots arranged in stages
(typically 8 to 16). Each pot is used to set a voltage which then shows
up at the sequencer output when that stage is selected. I think these
were essentially invented by Don Buchla. 



-- 
Celesteh@...
http://www.berkeleynoise.com/celesteh

MOTM is listed under Synthesis Technology.

John Loffink
jloffink@... 

The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

The Wavemakers Modular and Integrated Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com/

> Hey, that microtonal link is pretty good.  But it doesn't list the
MOTM!
> 
> I'm bookmarking the page, especially for the scales.  Too bad it
doesn't
> list volts in addition to fractions and cents.  There must exist a
formula

> to convert from cents to volts. . ..
> 
> -- celeste
>

1200 cents equals 1 volt equals one octave.

John Loffink
jloffink@... 

The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

The Wavemakers Modular and Integrated Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com/

> I'm bookmarking the page, especially for the scales.  Too bad it
doesn't
> list volts in addition to fractions and cents.  There must exist a
formula
> to convert from cents to volts. . ..
>

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jpyyz@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know how those distorted steal drum sounds were made in 
> the 2nd Impression in Karnevil 9.  They sound amazing.  Anyone got 
> any ideas?
> 
Chiming in late here..
Yes, this is a great 'steel' sound - the patch for the sound on the 
minimoog is actually in the users/owners manual from the original 
mmoog (ok -this is about 300 years ago...)We crusty old folk are good 
for this sort of info-eh?

Rog

Very cool Rog.  And thanks to the others for the input.  I think I'm 
gonna have fun trying to recreate this.  Those are probably my 
favorite sounds on that Album, besides the whacked out sequence at 
the end.

John


--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rossen" <mididood@a...> wrote:
> Chiming in late here..
> Yes, this is a great 'steel' sound - the patch for the sound on 
the 
> minimoog is actually in the users/owners manual from the original 
> mmoog (ok -this is about 300 years ago...)We crusty old folk are 
good 

> for this sort of info-eh?
> 
> Rog

It is an interesting sound.  I duplicated it last night with osc.3 FM'ing 
osc. 1&2. Osc. 1&2 were running at 4' and tuned in unison while osc.3 was 
at 16' and tuned up about a maj. 3rd.  Playing with the tuning of osc. 3 
gets the different harmonics but you will have to retune your main osc. 
since the FM is not linear.

Enjoy,
         Eric


At 05:48 PM 5/4/2003 +0000, John wrote:

>Very cool Rog.  And thanks to the others for the input.  I think I'm
>gonna have fun trying to recreate this.  Those are probably my
>favorite sounds on that Album, besides the whacked out sequence at
>the end.
>
>John
>
>
>--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rossen" <mididood@a...> wrote:
> > Chiming in late here..
> > Yes, this is a great 'steel' sound - the patch for the sound on
>the
> > minimoog is actually in the users/owners manual from the original
> > mmoog (ok -this is about 300 years ago...)We crusty old folk are
>good
> > for this sort of info-eh?
> >
> > Rog
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

At 12:56 AM +0000 2003/05/04, John wrote:
>Does anyone know how those distorted steal drum sounds were made in
>the 2nd Impression in Karnevil 9.  They sound amazing.  Anyone got
>any ideas?

I don't have an MOTM patch for this sound, but I've got two other patches.

1. On the back cover photo of the WBMFTTSTNE live album it sure looks 
like a MiniMoog on top of Keith's grand piano. It's too small to see 
on the CD version, look at the vinyl version (for those old timers 
that still have their vinyl albums). Since he played that steel drum 
sound and the piano at the same time on the second impression, it's 
likely that he used a MiniMoog.

Also, in the MiniMoog patch manual there's an "Emerson's Steel Drum 
 From Brain Sald Surgery" patch:

Osc 1: range=2', wave=sawtooth, mixer level=10
Osc 2: range=2', tune=0, wave=sawtooth, mixer level=10
Osc 3: range=16', tune=7, wave=sawtooth, keyboard control=off, mixer level=0
Oscillator modulation=off

Filter: cutoff=-2, emphasis=5, EG amount=5
Filter EG: a=0, d=10ms, s=0
Filter modulation=on
Filter keyboard control=1+2

Amp: a=0, d=400ms, s=0

Glide=off
Decay=on
Mod Wheel=up all the way

2. I made a similar sounding patch for a Pro-One many years ago. It 
uses FM on the oscillators, rather than the filter, to produce the 
steel drum sound:

Osc A: wave=sawtooth, pitch=10, octave=1
Osc B: wave=triangle, pitch=2, octave=1
Mixer: osc A=10, osc B=10
Filter: cutoff=3.95, res=3.0, envelope amount=4.2, keyboard amount=4.8
Filter EG: a=0, d=3.8, s=3.8, r=5.0
Amp EG: a=0, d=5, s=0, r=5

Modulation From:
Filter EG: amount=1.95, route=direct
Osc B: amount=5.15, route=direct

Modulation To:
Osc A Freq=direct

The two oscillators are not tuned to any standard musical interval. 
Osc A is FM modulated by Osc B and the filter envelope. Osc A must be 
tuned while playing the patch to get the appropriate enharmonic (sp?) 
overtones that steel drums produce.

He did indeed use a Mini for that sound live. I recall from seeing them perform this piece live several times. I also remember reading that in an interview awhile back..ok,more than a while. (see,the recreational drug use didn't take that big of toll)  

Gary