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Dumb Power Supply Question?

Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by Tkacs, Ken

Is it okay to mount the MOTM-900 Power Module 'anywhere' in regards to other
modules? Are there any that would be sensitive to magnetic fields coming off
the '900 or anything? You know... are those 'vactrols' susceptible or
anything like that?

I'm not asking because I'm having problems-Rather I'm designing a cabinet
and I'm thinking of actually mounting the '900 in the back of the cabinet.
But I'm concerned that this might bring the supply too close to another PCB
in there and cause hum or something.

Re: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by Paul Schreiber

Nope. Put it anywhere.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken <Ken.Tkacs@...>
To: 'MOTM Forum All' <MOTM@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 10:28 AM
Subject: [motm] Dumb Power Supply Question?


>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>Is it okay to mount the MOTM-900 Power Module 'anywhere' in regards to
other
>modules? Are there any that would be sensitive to magnetic fields coming
off
>the '900 or anything? You know... are those 'vactrols' susceptible or
>anything like that?
>
>I'm not asking because I'm having problems-Rather I'm designing a cabinet
>and I'm thinking of actually mounting the '900 in the back of the cabinet.
>But I'm concerned that this might bring the supply too close to another PCB
>in there and cause hum or something.
>
>>

Re: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by improv@xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>Is it okay to mount the MOTM-900 Power Module 'anywhere' in regards to other
>modules? Are there any that would be sensitive to magnetic fields coming off
>the '900 or anything? You know... are those 'vactrols' susceptible or
>anything like that?
>
>I'm not asking because I'm having problems-Rather I'm designing a cabinet
>and I'm thinking of actually mounting the '900 in the back of the cabinet.
>But I'm concerned that this might bring the supply too close to another PCB
>in there and cause hum or something.
>
This is exactly what I did, built a 20-space rack out of some nice-looking
plywood, with 8 spaces of rails in the back, and mounted the 900 in back.
My rack is 15" deep, with the rails set in 1" on each side. I could have
made it narrower, there's still about 3" clearance between the front of the
900 PCB and the back of the front mounted PCB's, but I think it wouldn't be
stable if it was any narrower. Basically, I think you can safely mount the
900 anywhere the cables will reach.


________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@... : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
-Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by Tkacs, Ken

Cool, thanks for the info!

15 inches deep-wow, that's a lot deeper than I was planning. I was thinking
more like 8". Using the MOTM-300 VCO as a baseline, are there any other
modules that are much 'deeper' than that? I don't want to make a case that's
too shallow and then have a module come out with a foot-long PCB on it.

Unfortunately, space is of the essence in my studio, so I'd like to keep the
cabinets as shallow as possible.



^>^>^>This is exactly what I did, built a 20-space rack out
of some nice-looking
plywood, with 8 spaces of rails in the back, and mounted the
900 in back.
My rack is 15" deep, with the rails set in 1" on each side

Re: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by Paul Schreiber

I don't plan on any deep modules *except* the sequencer (and that's just a
definite maybe)

They are ~4 1/2" deep behind the panel. I would say allow at least 2 inches
from the rear of the
power supply to the rear of the modules.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken <Ken.Tkacs@...>
To: 'motm@onelist.com' <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: [motm] Dumb Power Supply Question?


>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>Cool, thanks for the info!
>
>15 inches deep-wow, that's a lot deeper than I was planning. I was thinking
>more like 8". Using the MOTM-300 VCO as a baseline, are there any other
>modules that are much 'deeper' than that? I don't want to make a case
that's
>too shallow and then have a module come out with a foot-long PCB on it.
>
>Unfortunately, space is of the essence in my studio, so I'd like to keep
the
>cabinets as shallow as possible.
>
>
>
> ^>^>^>This is exactly what I did, built a 20-space rack out
>of some nice-looking
> plywood, with 8 spaces of rails in the back, and mounted the
>900 in back.
> My rack is 15" deep, with the rails set in 1" on each side
>
>>

Re: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-18 by CHRIS PARKER

Hello List!

I am also planning on mounting my PS on the rear of my case(s). My plans call for case(s) with 12-inch deep sides and, even though I plan to mount my modules 1/4" back from the face of the case(s), I figure this should give more than enough space.

The attached bitmap shows what my current system will look like when I find time to assemble my 410s. This is rack 1 of at least 3, maybe 4, that I hope to eventually build! Even though this diagram shows the PS in front, the finished racks will each have a Power Supply on the back .

I do have one question I would like to throw out to the list. Has there been any discussion about how you would group modules in the racks? For example, is it best to follow a left-to-right, VCO-to-VCF-to-VCA arrangement, or are there better ways to do this? Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!

ChrispyCritter
Busted Flat in Baton Rouge


>>> "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> 10/18/99 01:23PM >>>
From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>

I don't plan on any deep modules *except* the sequencer (and that's just a
definite maybe)

They are ~4 1/2" deep behind the panel. I would say allow at least 2 inches
from the rear of the
power supply to the rear of the modules.

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken <Ken.Tkacs@...>
To: 'motm@onelist.com' <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: [motm] Dumb Power Supply Question?


>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>Cool, thanks for the info!
>
>15 inches deep-wow, that's a lot deeper than I was planning. I was thinking
>more like 8". Using the MOTM-300 VCO as a baseline, are there any other
>modules that are much 'deeper' than that? I don't want to make a case
that's
>too shallow and then have a module come out with a foot-long PCB on it.
>
>Unfortunately, space is of the essence in my studio, so I'd like to keep
the
>cabinets as shallow as possible.
>
>
>
> ^>^>^>This is exactly what I did, built a 20-space rack out
>of some nice-looking
> plywood, with 8 spaces of rails in the back, and mounted the
>900 in back.
> My rack is 15" deep, with the rails set in 1" on each side
>
>>

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-20 by Dave Bradley

I don't think anyone ever responded to this question. The cool thing about
modulars is that there is no universal "best" way. Everyone has different
needs, and different arrangements will be most efficient for them. You may
even find that your needs change over time, and wish to rearrange things
later. You're paying extra for the flexibility of a true modular, you may as
well use it!

A couple of common configs:
1. Arranged around "voices" - for bigger systems that can go polyphonic,
VCO,VCO,VCF,EG,EG,VCA + extras, repeated is common.
2. Arranged around certain module groupings that you commonly patch
together.

One thing that has a big impact on the number of patchcords you have to use
is the distribution of kbd CVs and Gates to everything. Many modular systems
like Moog and Emu have a subsystem for these signals that allow you to "firm
wire" or "normal" them behind the panels using switches. I find that to be
very useful. Our recent discussion about Larry's magic bus also centered on
distributing important signals around the system.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CHRIS PARKER [mailto:CPARKER@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:38 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Dumb Power Supply Question?
>
> I do have one question I would like to throw out to the list.
> Has there been any discussion about how you would group modules
> in the racks? For example, is it best to follow a left-to-right,
> VCO-to-VCF-to-VCA arrangement, or are there better ways to do
> this? Any input would be appreciated!

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-20 by Tkacs, Ken

I may not stick to this configuration at all as my system grows, but for
what it's worth, here's how I envision laying out my modules...

The cabinet configuration I'm planning will be a series of smaller cabinets
sort've like the Moog IIIp (I was even going to cover the cases in Tolex,
but after several list members yelled at me for that ;) I'm rethinking a
nice wood). My plans are for two rows of 10 1u-width modules each with a 3u
'utility row' along the bottom. Sorta FracRack size I guess, but I'm not
using that.

I'm thinking of putting controllers along the top row (Egs, LFOs, etc.), and
on the second row-spanning cabinets-signal sources (VCOs, etc.) and
modifiers (filters, etc.).

The utility panels will be tinkery stuff like multiples, inverters, logic
gates, stuff like that.

I probably wont adhere absolutely to this plan, but that's how I'm thinking.
The signal moves left to right along the middle row with controllers
"overlooking" from the row above, and the utility panels at the bottom for
quick CV modifications. Actually, as I type this, maybe I should reverse the
first & second rows so that the controller modules are closer to the utility
panels. We'll see.

I've got plans to tinker together some nutsy-cuckoo modules of my own, and
they may get their own cabinet after I have enough of them. I'm going for
that "Forbidden Planet" sound so I need some off-the-wall modifiers and
controllers.

When the sequencer comes out, depending upon its dimensions, I will probably
give it its own cabinet, and if there's space, put MUXs and other similar
devices in.

I kinda wish we could see the sequencer before I get too deep into cabinet
building, because I have a feeling that it will be the single biggest module
of the entire MOTM line for a long time, and it would help to see what the
'maximums' look like. But I doubt it will exceed the '19"-rack' wide limit,
and Paul has suggested that PCB depth probably wont exceed more than 2"
beyond the 4.5" standard.

Speaking of cabinets, I just got some rack rails in from Tech America and am
disappointed. They're heavy duty, but have a huge radius in the bend that
will leave a 1" gap between my module rows if I use them. I wasn't allowing
for that in my cabinet blueprints. I hate buying hardware through catalogs
without holding it in my hand first.



-----Original Message-----
> I do have one question I would like to throw out to the
list.
> Has there been any discussion about how you would group
modules
> in the racks? For example, is it best to follow a
left-to-right,
> VCO-to-VCF-to-VCA arrangement, or are there better ways to
do
> this? Any input would be appreciated!

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-20 by improv@xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

> I do have one question I would like to throw out to the list.
> Has there been any discussion about how you would group modules
> in the racks? For example, is it best to follow a left-to-right,
> VCO-to-VCF-to-VCA arrangement, or are there better ways to do
> this? Any input would be appreciated!
>

I've put a fair amount of thought into this, and when a recent disaster
made me dismantle my MOTM and ship it back to Paul for repairs, I
re-assembled it like this:

20-space rack containing (from top down):
Doepfer MAQ (4 spaces)
Peavey SPAF Filter (1 space) - this is pretty much just there to fill the
space, I may replace it with either my PAIA Vocoder or a digital delay
First row of MOTM with: 2-space wide homebrew patch panel with mults and
outputs from the MAQ and SPAF, MOTM 100 Noise/S/H, 2 300 VCO's, and 2
spaces open, will probably hold 2 microVCO's when available.
2nd Row of MOTM: 120 Sub8vaMux, 2 420 filters, 410 filter, 2 open spaces
which will probably hold the 310 LFO.
3rd row of MOTM: 700 VC-switch, 2 blank-spaces for 2 more EGs eventually, 2
800 EGs, 2 110 VCA's.

The basic design idea was to put sound sources on top, audio modifiers in
the middle and control sources on the bottom. I'd though about doing a left
to right voice structure on each row, but decided that I didn't want to
limit myself conceptually to standard synth signal paths, and this top down
approach seemed the best way to make me think in non-standard patches. The
only problem with this layout is that it'll be full soon and Paul keeps
building more modules!

Speaking of which, how wide is the DoMoAS going to be? When it comes out,
I'll probably replace the MAQ with it, and if it's less than a full 19"
wide, it'll give me some more space for modules.

I now kind of wish I hadn't gone with a standard 19" rack, my original idea
was that I'd integrate the MOTM with other stuff, but as the MOTM has
grown, it's crowded out the other stuff, and now I wish I'd made the rack
1.5x as wide, more of the Moog-ish design with the sloping bottom, etc.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@... : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
-Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-20 by improv@xxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

At 12:12 PM 10/20/99, Tkacs, Ken wrote:
>The utility panels will be tinkery stuff like multiples, inverters, logic
>gates, stuff like that.

Y'know, these are the kind of modules that I miss from the MOTM, things
like trigger delays, gates, clock dividers, etc. I find myself using these
kind of modules from my Doepfer system all the time. I'm not a real DIYer,
assembling the MOTM kits is about the limit of my electrical abilities, but
I've been led to believe that modules like these are fairly simple. Since
they don't seem to be in the queue fromPaul until at least after the
DoMoAS, where would I look to build my own, if that's a possibility? Or
should I just buy more Doepfer (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@... : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
-Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-20 by Tkacs, Ken

There are schematics sprinkled around the web that are at least sources for
thoughtful chin-rubbing. I pulled down the schematics for the Moog Modular
off someone's site at one point-I wouldn't bother building anything
significant out of it (Paul's 'modern' implementations blow them away, and
the kits cut way down on the DIY effort), but it shows the thought processes
for some things. And things like multiples, passive high-pass & low-pass
filters, mixers and so on are easy to tinker together (I use that word a lot
lately), a lot of them without even using circuit boards!

I also thumb through my old copies of Polyphony magazine (EM when it was for
DIYers) and there are ideas in those, too. You can even find old Paia 4700
schematics in there and on the web, which probably isn't worth much except
for things like the 4-channel mixer, etc. A lot of people talk about
"Electronotes" but I think the only way to get those is to pay Bernie
Hutchins (sp?) a big lump $um for back-issue photocopies.

When I get some "utility" modules built and tested, I'll throw some
schematics up on my site. But like I say, modules of real substance (VCOs,
VCFs, etc.) I'm going to get from MOTM and only hack together simple but
useful things myself.

Things like Gate Delays... my belief is that these are simply integrators
followed by Schmitt triggers, which is like a 2 op-amp solution. I have yet
to build one, but I think it's a helluva useful module to have around (like
the HADSR in my Korg MS-10... almost nobody implements that 'hold' feature,
but I used to use it all the time). Changing the times that gates and
therefore envelopes come & go is an important sound-shaping function.

But, you know... mixers, inverters, that sort of stuff you can find the
basics of in $10 books at, dare I say it, Radio Shack, too. Sometimes its
fun to thumb through non-music electronics circuits and just think, "hmm...
would something like this destroy a musical signal in a really rude way that
I can use...?" I'm always on the lookout for that kind of stuff. Cheapie
circuits to compliment the quality, rock-solid modules. "What if you take
the weird thing on this page and follow it a couple of diodes and then with
the weird little circuit on THAT page and put a feedback pot on it?" Who
knows, maybe there are some cool simple modules yet undiscovered. It's worth
playing with.

(The only significant-and it really is big-thing I've ever been tempted to
build out of the old Moog schemos was the Bode Frequency Shifter. But Jurgen
Haible is working on his own, which is interesting to follow. I don't know
if Paul would ever tackle an FS... it's a specialty module that seems to
require a hell of a lot of circuitry.)



-----Original Message-----
>The utility panels will be tinkery stuff like multiples,
inverters, logic
>gates, stuff like that.

Y'know, these are the kind of modules that I miss from the
MOTM, things
like trigger delays, gates, clock dividers, etc... where
would I look to build my own, if that's a possibility? Or
should I just buy more Doepfer (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

Re: RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-21 by JWBarlow@xxx.xxx

In a message dated 10/20/99 9:17:51 AM, Ken.Tkacs@... writes:

>I'm thinking of putting controllers along the top row (Egs, LFOs, etc.),
>and
>on the second row-spanning cabinets-signal sources (VCOs, etc.) and
>modifiers (filters, etc.).

The standard arrangement (as you almost certainly already know) is to have
signal sources move from left to right and CV and utility sources on the
bottom.

>The utility panels will be tinkery stuff like multiples, inverters, logic
>gates, stuff like that.
>I probably wont adhere absolutely to this plan, but that's how I'm thinking.
>The signal moves left to right along the middle row with controllers
>"overlooking" from the row above, and the utility panels at the bottom
>for
>quick CV modifications. Actually, as I type this, maybe I should reverse
>the
>first & second rows so that the controller modules are closer to the utility
>panels. We'll see.

I think some of the motivation for CV sources on the bottom is that the
keyboard is at the bottom any CV processors would be very handy right above
it.

>Speaking of cabinets, I just got some rack rails in from Tech America and
>am
>disappointed. They're heavy duty, but have a huge radius in the bend that
>will leave a 1" gap between my module rows if I use them. I wasn't allowing
>for that in my cabinet blueprints. I hate buying hardware through catalogs
>without holding it in my hand first.

Since I mentioned getting my 21U rails from Tech Am previously I feel a
little guilty about what you said regarding the 1" gap. This isn't what I
found though upon inspection. I set both the rails next to each other as if I
had bolted them together. Then I lined up spare MOTM panels on adjacent sides
of each rail. I then measured the distance between the two edges of the
panels which I believe to be about 1/4". Were the rails you got the Penn Fab
rails? Did you measure the distance between the modules? I don't see the
radius as being very large at all so I hope you didn't get different rails.

Sorry if I led you astray!
JB

Re: RE: Dumb Power Supply Question?

1999-10-21 by J. Larry Hendry

> Ken.Tkacs@... writes:
>
> Speaking of cabinets, I just got some rack rails in from
> Tech America and am disappointed. They're heavy duty,
> but have a huge radius in the bend that will leave a 1" gap
> between my module rows if I use them. I wasn't allowing
> for that in my cabinet blueprints. I hate buying hardware
> through catalogs without holding it in my hand first.
>
> From: JWBarlow@...
> Since I mentioned getting my 21U rails from Tech Am
> previously I feel a little guilty about what you said regarding
> the 1" gap. This isn't what I found though upon inspection.
> I set both the rails next to each other as if I had bolted them
> together. Then I lined up spare MOTM panels on adjacent sides
> of each rail. I then measured the distance between the two
> edges of the panels which I believe to be about 1/4".

I got a pair of rails from Musician's Friend and experienced about the same
results as JWB. Like Ken, I was hoping they would allow the modules to be
flush (like the nice ones that Paul makes). However, they did not, so I am
not certain I am going to use them for that purpose. I still have room for
12 more 2-space wide MOTM modules in my rack even after I get my two 320s
before I have to move to a case, so I have a while before I have to cross
that bridge.

Larry H