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Misc. Vocoder Qs

Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-28 by Tentochi

What is the typical bandwidth of a classic analog
vocoder?

What is the bandwidth of the '420 in band pass mode? 
Is it possible to adjust this?

Can someone please repost the frequencies each of the
bands of a classic vocoder or point me to a link where
I can find those?  I know Paul posted it about 3 years
ago, but I can't find it.

If you were to create a vocoder out of a modular
synthesizer, what happens to the signal when you split
it through a mult to go to let's say 21 BPFs?  Is this
a problem?  If so, how can you compensate for it?

What are typical ways to condition the input of a
vodocder before it reaches the BPFs?  What about the
oputput (other than mixing in the original signal)?

What is the best way to tune the the cutoff frequency
on the '420 for HP and LP and the center frequency for
BP?

Thanks!
Shemp

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Re: [motm] Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-28 by Sikorsky

hello all,

> What is the bandwidth of the '420 in band pass mode?
> Is it possible to adjust this?

erm, i was under the impression that being a 'notch' filter it was band
reject not band pass..?

> If you were to create a vocoder out of a modular
> synthesizer, what happens to the signal when you split
> it through a mult to go to let's say 21 BPFs?  Is this
> a problem?  If so, how can you compensate for it?

you'd need some kind of distribution amplifier - but i'm not tech...

just some thoughts
cheers
paul

Re: Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-28 by paulhaneberg

To have a true vocoder you need 2 sets of bandpass filters.
Typically you have two sections in a vocoder, the first section 
performs an analysis of sorts, the second section imparts the 
characterisitics of the input of the analysis section to a second 
signal which is typically a harmonic rich source.

To do this properly you take an input signal which is usually from a 
microphone and distribute it ti a number of bandpass filters.  The 
center frequency and bandwidth of these filters varies with the 
frequencies being spaced closer together and the band width being 
narrower in the lower frequencies of the human voice.  Each bandpass 
filter feeds and envelope follower which should have its attack and 
decay times tuned to the filter section it is following.

This gives you control voltage outputs, one for each frequency band.

A harmonic rich signal of your choice is then fed to an identical 
set of bandpass filters, but this time instead of each band feeding 
an envelope follower, each band feeds into a VCA.  The amplitude of 
each VCA is controlled by the envelope followers from the analysis 
section.  For laughs and giggles some vocoders allow you to scramble 
up which follower feeds which VCA.  

The outputs of the VCA are combined and you have your vocoded signal.

Often the uppermost frequency band at 10K or so is fed by a noise 
source to simulate the sibilant sounds of human speech.  A VCA 
controlled by the 10K filter in the analysis section controls the 
amount of noise in the vocoded signal.

To patch together a vocoder using traditional synth modules using 
your example of 21 bands, you would need 21 bandpass filters and 21 
envelope followers for the analysis section, and another 21 bandpass 
filters, 21 VCAs and a noise source for the vocoding section.

This is why good vocoders are quite expensive.  

The frequencies used are not particularly critical, but they should 
be chosen to occupy the spectrum of the human voice.  Many designers 
choose to space the filters at non-harmonic intervals so as to 
minimize resonances which might occur if the input signal were to 
correspond to the center frequency of the filter and the harmonics 
of the input frequency would also correspond to the center frequency 
of other filters at harmonic intervals.

In general the greater number of filters the better the vocoding.

It is critical that the two banks of filters be tuned identically in 
order to properly reproduce the vocal formants of the input signal.

Re: [motm] Re: Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-28 by Paul Schreiber

For the "new" folks, JH and I one day dream of a 19" wide true analog vocoder with 21 bands. The
front panel mock up has 53 controls :)

A crude 7-band version without much attention to performance was breadboarded up, and some quick
demos are at:

www.synthtech.com/demo

look for files beginning with jh_freeze...mp3

With SMT assembly and CAD (lots of 'step-and-repeat') it's not *that* nasty as it used to be. The
cost...errr...maybe $1800ea :)

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Re: MOTM Vocoder Qs

2002-11-28 by Simon

>For the "new" folks, JH and I one day dream of a 19" wide true 
>analog vocoder with 21 bands. The
>front panel mock up has 53 controls :)
>With SMT assembly and CAD (lots of 'step-and-repeat') it's not 
>*that* nasty as it used to be. The
>cost...errr...maybe $1800ea :)

When will it be available?

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

Re: [motm] Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-30 by Tentochi

Thanks for all of the vocoder feedback!

Unfortunately none of my questions got answered.  I
know how to build a modular vocoder; I don't know how
to fine tune everything--so hence my Qs.  Thanks
Jurgen for the expanded explanations of a few
commercial analog vocoders!  And also thanks for
addressing the NS input for enhanced silabence

I will leave it to the alert reader to figure out what
I am doing and how I am accomplishing it (sound like
anyone you know???).

More info: 
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jul00/articles/synthsec.htm

Some HW vocoders in production and a few tips: 
http://archive.keyboardonline.com/features/vocoderwars/index.shtml

Ciao!!!!
Shemp

What are the differences between a frequency vocoder
and a phase vocoder?  Have there been any phase
vocoders put into production?  What is the difference
in sound between a classic vocoder and a phase
vocoder?

> What is the typical bandwidth of a classic analog
> vocoder band?
> 
> What is the bandwidth of the '420 in band pass mode?
> 
> Is it possible to adjust this?
> 
> Can someone please repost the frequencies each of
> the
> bands of a classic vocoder or point me to a link
> where
> I can find those?  I know Paul posted it about 3
> years
> ago, but I can't find it.
> 
> If you were to create a vocoder out of a modular
> synthesizer, what happens to the signal when you
> split
> it through a mult to go to let's say 21 BPFs?  Is
> this
> a problem?  If so, how can you compensate for it?
> 
> What are typical ways to condition the input of a
> vodocder before it reaches the BPFs?  What about the
> oputput (other than mixing in the original signal)?
> 
> What is the best way to tune the the cutoff
> frequency
> on the '420 for HP and LP and the center frequency
> for BP?


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Re: [motm] Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-30 by elhardt@att.net

Tentochi writes:
>>What are the differences between a frequency vocoder and a phase vocoder?  
Have there been any phase vocoders put into production?  What is the difference 
in sound between a classic vocoder and a phase vocoder?<<

Some virtual analog synths have phase vocoders. I believe those by Novation and 
Access do to name a couple. And if I'm not mistaken (and maybe I am mistaken), 
phase vocoders have something to do with fourier transforms, and are therefore 
geared toward software implementations. They usually feature a lot more bands 
than found in your typical analog vocoder.

-Elhardt

Re: [motm] Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-30 by Craig Critchley

From: <jhaible@...>
>
> A typical BPF (like the Emu UAF, Oberheim SEM filter in BPF mode, and many
> many similar filters) are two pole designs. For a good vocoder filter (a
single
> vocoder BPF!) you'd connect 3 such filters in series, two of them with the
> same Q factor, the 3rd with a different Q, and center frequencies spread
such
> that the "middle" filter is halfway between the "outer" filters on a log
frequency
> scale. Two such blocks are needed for analysis and synthesis of one
channel,
> and 20 channels were a good choice for the "classic" Sennheiser vocoder.

Out of curiosity, what sort of response is this and why is it good for
vocoders?  (I would guess that for vocoder channels you'd want plenty of
discrimination between channels.)

                    ...Craig

Re: [motm] Misc. Vocoder Qs

2002-11-30 by mate_stubb

I think you answered your own question. Normal arrays of 2 pole 
bandpass filters would have a large amount of band overlap due to 
their rather gentle slopes . If you use an array of high Q filters, 
the bands would be so narrow that you'd have to use a zillion of them 
to cover the spectrum. A good compromise is to use a 2 pole filter in 
the center of the band, with a high Q filter at the upper and lower 
edge of each band to "square the corners" and maximize the separation.

Moe

>>>>>
Out of curiosity, what sort of response is this and why is it good for
vocoders? (I would guess that for vocoder channels you'd want plenty 
of discrimination between channels.)
<<<<<
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> A typical BPF (like the Emu UAF, Oberheim SEM filter in BPF mode, 
> and many many similar filters) are two pole designs. For a good 
> vocoder filter (a single vocoder BPF!) you'd connect 3 such filters 
> in series, two of them with the same Q factor, the 3rd with a 
> different Q, and center frequencies spread such that the "middle" 
> filter is halfway between the "outer" filters on a log frequency
> scale. Two such blocks are needed for analysis and synthesis of one
> channel, and 20 channels were a good choice for the "classic" 
> Sennheiser vocoder.