MOTM

The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV converter.

The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm asking for your inputs/desires.
Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:

a) fits in 2U panel
b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY shallow)
d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice assignments
e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is used *only* if you SysEx a new OS
(it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is a 'voice', with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock In. The AUX's are like on a
Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones) MIDI controllers to
'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can divide it down, too. May be able to
clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').

The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously endorsed the '650 (it's not his
code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need more pressure). I'm NOT writing
the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think that it can be a ~$229 assembled
module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about as accurate as I can give. The
idea is a prototype at NAMM.

So, I guess what I'm asking is:

a) what features do you want to see
b) would you buy one?

Paul S.

Unfortunately this is one MOTM module I wouldn't buy
This of course is only because I have a Roland 181 and 184 :-)
A modular sequencer however ....
Steve M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 
Sent: 15 October 2002 14:46
To: MOTM listserv
Subject: [motm] MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV converter
 
The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-ch
MIDI-CV converter.

The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm asking
for your inputs/desires.
Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:

a) fits in 2U panel
b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY shallow)
d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice
assignments
e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is used
*only* if you SysEx a new OS
(it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is a 'voice',
with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock In. The
AUX's are like on a
Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones) MIDI
controllers to
'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can divide it
down, too. May be able to
clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').

The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously endorsed
the '650 (it's not his
code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need more
pressure). I'm NOT writing
the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think that it
can be a ~$229 assembled
module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about as
accurate as I can give. The
idea is a prototype at NAMM.

So, I guess what I'm asking is:

a) what features do you want to see
b) would you buy one?

Paul S.







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>  f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal
> row is a 'voice', with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.


Trigger out? Guess you could derive one from the gate using another module,
but would be very nice to have right there on the panel and not have to tie
something else up to produce it....

F**KING MARVELOUS !!!

> The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously endorsed
the '650 (it's not his
> code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need more
pressure). I'm NOT writing
> the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think that it can
be a ~$229 assembled
> module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about as
accurate as I can give. The
> idea is a prototype at NAMM.

yep, i like the idea of this - i like the '4 voice' ness of it, as my system
will / should ultimately consist of a full four voice system complemented by
an extremely complex mono-synth, and a less complex portable synth. i don't
like the 'next spring' ness about it though - i still remember the long
imminent instrument interface :-)
i'd get one, but i have a few items on my shopping list:

1) 'midi in' header on rear of PCB for custom routing of midi signal, also a
midi thru would be pretty essential for me (also on the rear)
2) can i ask that the midi in on the front isn't one of those nasty
eliptical ones, but something like a tuschel which attaches with a locking
nut and is far more elegant
3) so we'll have 4 voice mode, and probably 4 x mono voices, but can we have
two monos and one duo voice..?
4) pitch bend out..?

anyway - just can't wait (again)

cheers
paul b / sheffield / uk

I forgot to mention: the current definition does NOT have LFOs in the converter. These may be
added into the code at a later date. I'm trying to make it *simple* without driving the cost
up/development time out to 2004.

Paul S.

> 
> Trigger out? Guess you could derive one from the gate using another module,
> but would be very nice to have right there on the panel and not have to tie
> something else up to produce it....

What would this drive? You really don't use Trig much for the ADSRs.

Paul S.

>
> The number one feature I would like on a MIDI-2-CV converter that no one has
> is the ability to transform the normal MIDI notes to unusual tunings during
> the conversion. However, no one has that, and I can understand why.
>
 There is a MIDI Microtuning Dump Standard. As far as I know, it has never been implemented by
anyone. Certainly, that's a secondary tier function.

Paul S.

A 4-chan Midi-to-CV sounds great!

Wish List:
1) 16-bit DACs if you please.
2) Gate LEDs and a Midi Clock LED would be very very helpful (as proven by
the Oakley MidiDAC2 and Expressionist breakout panel).
3) Add Trig out per voice for Attack-Decay enveloped drum sounds and
envelope retriggering.
4) Dedicated Arp Clock in and Midi Clock out jacks.
5) Aftertouch, Pitchbend, Mod Wheel, Pedal, Breath Control assignable to
AUXs.
6) Midi In, Out and Thru accessible on a header would be great.
7) Selectable polyphony level (1-Unison).  You might also want to support an
interesting Unison mode (similar to the Jupiter I think?) where if one note
is held, all 4 voices are assigned to that note; if a second note is played,
two voices are assigned to each note; if three, then two-one-one: and
finally if four, each has one voice.
8) When polyphony set to 1, allow each voice to be assigned a different MIDI
chan, like four separate midi-to-cv units.
9) A 440Hz reference out might be a nice addition.
10) Hmm.. did I mention gate LEDs??

Suggestion:
How about a much less congested 3U or 4U layout?  You could add Trig per
voice as well as separate Arp Clock in and Midi Clock out and have plenty of
room for those useful LEDs.

Questions:
1) Could you describe the Arpeggiator functionality?
2) Could you describe the note priority/assignment modes?
3) What power supply will be required?

For the reasonable sum of $229 I would definitely get one!
However, I would definitely prefer (and pay more for) a 3U (or 4U!) format
with more dedicated outs and gate LEDs. ;)

Cheers,
George

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
To: MOTM listserv <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: [motm] MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV converter


> The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-ch
MIDI-CV converter.
>
> The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm asking
for your inputs/desires.
> Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:
>
> a) fits in 2U panel
> b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
> c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY shallow)
> d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice
assignments
> e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is used
*only* if you SysEx a new OS
> (it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
> f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is a 'voice', with
CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
> There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock In. The
AUX's are like on a
> Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones) MIDI
controllers to
> 'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
> g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can divide it
down, too. May be able to
> clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').
>
> The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously endorsed
the '650 (it's not his
> code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need more
pressure). I'm NOT writing
> the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think that it can
be a ~$229 assembled
> module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about as
accurate as I can give. The

> idea is a prototype at NAMM.
>
> So, I guess what I'm asking is:
>
> a) what features do you want to see
> b) would you buy one?

> 1) 16-bit DACs if you please.

Required, and there is most of the cost (dedicated DAC-per-output, no muxing).

> 2) Gate LEDs and a Midi Clock LED would be very very helpful (as proven by
> the Oakley MidiDAC2 and Expressionist breakout panel).

Gate LEDs are 'free', that's the 4 decimal points in the LED display :)

> 3) Add Trig out per voice for Attack-Decay enveloped drum sounds and
> envelope retriggering.

Possible map of Velocity to be Vel/Trig? Adds $1 of hardware. It would probably be "global" for
all 4, then you could move Velocity to an AUX (individually).

> 4) Dedicated Arp Clock in and Midi Clock out jacks.

No room in the inn.

> 5) Aftertouch, Pitchbend, Mod Wheel, Pedal, Breath Control assignable to
> AUXs.

Just SW. But the Velocity/AUX DACs are either 8 or 10-bits. I would think Pitchbend does just
that, it bends the main CV out.

> 6) Midi In, Out and Thru accessible on a header would be great.

In is already on the front, Out is already on a jack at the rear. Will look at Thru.

> 7) Selectable polyphony level (1-Unison).  You might also want to support an
> interesting Unison mode (similar to the Jupiter I think?) where if one note
> is held, all 4 voices are assigned to that note; if a second note is played,
> two voices are assigned to each note; if three, then two-one-one: and
> finally if four, each has one voice.

Just SW.


> 8) When polyphony set to 1, allow each voice to be assigned a different MIDI
> chan, like four separate midi-to-cv units.

See above.

> 9) A 440Hz reference out might be a nice addition.

Wacky.

> 10) Hmm.. did I mention gate LEDs??

No.

>
> Suggestion:
> How about a much less congested 3U or 4U layout?  You could add Trig per
> voice as well as separate Arp Clock in and Midi Clock out and have plenty of
> room for those useful LEDs.

Because I want to keep it under $239.

>
> Questions:
> 1) Could you describe the Arpeggiator functionality?
> 2) Could you describe the note priority/assignment modes?

Later when the SW spec is nailed down.

> 3) What power supply will be required?

The new MOTM-950 with the +5V output.

Paul S.

:> > 3) Add Trig out per voice for Attack-Decay enveloped drum sounds and
:> > envelope retriggering.
:>
:> Possible map of Velocity to be Vel/Trig? Adds $1 of hardware. It
:> would probably be "global" for
:> all 4, then you could move Velocity to an AUX (individually).


Works for me. I *do* need triggers, not just gates. Good for all sorts of
stuff...uh....triggering events and such...

Can there be a decimator somewhere so nasty things can
happen to the output before it gets converted to
voltage? Actually more something along the lines of
the program "sample rape" where it just rips off the
last bits of data on raw format wavs and then outputs
whatever mess it creates? can this be done in
firmware? SO basically the data that does to the 16
bit DACs is destroyed. I think it would be mucho fun.

or i could just be thinking out of my ass.

Mark

--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> > 1) 16-bit DACs if you please.
> 
> Required, and there is most of the cost (dedicated
> DAC-per-output, no muxing).

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At 8:46 AM -0500 10/15/02, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>
>The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650
>4-ch MIDI-CV converter.

oh boy...

>So, I guess what I'm asking is:
>
>a) what features do you want to see
>b) would you buy one?

I don't think I would buy one because I already own a Kenton Pro-4.  Btw, I
bought it before I had ever heard of Encore.

>a) fits in 2U panel

Are you sure it's MOTM?? ;)

>b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")

This display should indicate MIDI received and MIDI Timing Clock (F8).
Checking those two things is the most frequent reason I look at my Pro-4.

>d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice
>>assignments

Settings for Note-priority, mono/poly, and legato modes are all useful.
Responding to CC# 68 is important for playing pads and chords.

Portamento is very desirable.  In addition to front panel options, it
should also be able to receive CC #05 and #65.

Pitch Bend is another very practical feature.

>e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is used
>*only* >if you SysEx a new OS

If should have a Thru (especially for live use).  It should also send MIDI
Clock out if it has an "Arpeggiator Clock In".

>There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock In. The
>>AUX's are like on a Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45
>>different ones) MIDI controllers to 'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
>g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can divide it
>>down, too. May be able to clock *multiply* it as well

Having a non-MIDI clock input would be a unique feature, but it would be
much less useful without a MIDI Clock out.  I use both the arpeggiator and
DIN Sync outputs of my Pro-4 all the time.  An arpeggiator output is almost
useless it can be divided down (F8 is System Real Time so MIDI sequencers
can only generate one clock for all the channels).

Given the extreme importance of clocks, these connections should not
sacrifice the aux outputs.

Also, the aux outs should be assignable to polyphonic aftertouch.

>> Trigger out? Guess you could derive one from the gate using
>> another module, but would be very nice to have right there on the panel
>>>> and not have to tie something else up to produce it....
>
>What would this drive? You really don't use Trig much for the ADSRs.

Well, there is this company in Texas that makes EG's with both gate and
trigger inputs  :)  I would also consider how useful this device would be
with synthesizers besides MOTM.  How about using TRS jacks??  Putting note
and velocity on the same jacks will free up four jacks for other features.

>> The number one feature I would like on a MIDI-2-CV converter that no
>> one has is the ability to transform the normal MIDI notes to unusual
>> tunings during the conversion. However, no one has that, and I can
>> understand why.
>>
>There is a MIDI Microtuning Dump Standard. As far as I know, it has never
>>been implemented by anyone. Certainly, that's a secondary tier function.

Isn't tuning standard part of universal SysEx??  Afaik, no MIDI-->CV
converter uses it, and it might require more than a 4 character LED
alpha-numeric display to implement properly.  However a number of synths
(including my Korg Prophecy and Emu UltraProteus) can play different
tunings, and even user-defined scales.  It would be great to be able to do
that with CV without using an unquantized step sequencer.

> Can there be a decimator somewhere so nasty things can
> happen to the output before it gets converted to
> voltage? Actually more something along the lines of
> the program "sample rape" where it just rips off the
> last bits of data on raw format wavs and then outputs
> whatever mess it creates? can this be done in
> firmware? SO basically the data that does to the 16
> bit DACs is destroyed. I think it would be mucho fun.
>
The Munging Decimator module does this function.

Paul S.

In a sea of requests for more and more, maybe I can balance things out.

Having a voice stealing unison mode isn't very useful, even on synths that have 
such a feature. It's sloppy sounding. It's a bit like monophonic synths that 
try to be duophonic by stealing an oscillator for the other voice.

There are a lot of requests for trigger output jacks. Looking at Kentons, 
Encores, and other CD-Midi converters, I don't see them on those big guys. 
Perhaps a software option to change from gate to trigger is just as good. Or if 
all else fails, you could gate a fast Attack/Decay EQ to generate a trigger.

If need be, portamento can simply be done after the Midi interface using a lag 
processor. Not everything has to come from Midi, especially if the aux jacks 
are only going to be 8 or 10 bit.

The Midi output socket could be changed to a thru under software control to 
save a connector. Two of my current Midi-CV interfaces have no Midi out.

media.nai@... writes:
>>How about using TRS jacks??  Putting note and velocity on the same jacks will 
free up four jacks for other features.<<

Wait a second, aren't you the guy who so opposes the use of splitter cables 
with the MOTM? You'd have to buy some of those crappy Radio Shack stereo Y-
cables for this and then go sifting around to find them. :-0

>>Isn't tuning standard part of universal SysEx??...However a number of synths 
(including my Korg Prophecy and Emu UltraProteus) can play different tunings, 
and even user-defined scales.  It would be great to be able to do that with CV 
without using an unquantized step sequencer.<<

If memory serves me, I think Tony of Encore mentioned this as a possible 
feature in his upcoming converter. If a tuning table can be set from the front 
panel display it or course would have nothing to do with whether Midi supports 
it or not, so it's easier to implement. Much the same way Midi has no idea if 
you've detuned an oscillator. That's why those digital synths do it so easily. 
But for those people who want greater than 12 note microtonal scales, they're 
still probably out of luck.

It's too bad the 650 is coming out so late in the game. Many people have 
already taken care of their Midi-CV needs including me.

-Elhardt

Paul,

I like the four rows of outputs. CV/Gate/Velocity are a MUST. Would like
to be able to map the additional four to release velocity, if possible.
Mapping after touch and mod wheel stuff is also fine.

Buy one? YOU BET!

Scott
-----------------------------------------
Paul Schreiber wrote:

> 
> The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV converter.
> 
> The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm asking for your inputs/desires.
> Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:
> 
> a) fits in 2U panel
> b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
> c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY shallow)
> d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice assignments
> e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is used *only* if you SysEx a new OS
> (it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
> f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is a 'voice', with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
> There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock In. The AUX's are like on a
> Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones) MIDI controllers to
> 'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
> g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can divide it down, too. May be able to
> clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').
> 
> The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously endorsed the '650 (it's not his
> code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need more pressure). I'm NOT writing
> the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think that it can be a ~$229 assembled
> module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about as accurate as I can give. The
> idea is a prototype at NAMM.
> 
> So, I guess what I'm asking is:
> 
> a) what features do you want to see
> b) would you buy one?
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I would support a larger format for more features as well.

Scott
----------------------------------------------------------
groovyshaman@... wrote:

> 
> Suggestion:
> How about a much less congested 3U or 4U layout?

>
>So, I guess what I'm asking is:
>
>a) what features do you want to see
>b) would you buy one?
>

The ability to "daisy-chain" 2/3 together for 8/12 note polyphony would be great!

I'd buy 2 or 3.

-Chris-





 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I've gotta disagree with Elhardt here. That is a cherished feature of 
my Chroma, and I don't find it 'sloppy' sounding at all. It works 
great for when you need maximum fat. Other times its inappropriate, 
so I just turn it off.

Moe

>>>>
Having a voice stealing unison mode isn't very useful, even on synths 
that have such a feature. It's sloppy sounding. It's a bit like 
monophonic synths that try to be duophonic by stealing an oscillator 
for the other voice.
<<<<

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
>
> > 2) Gate LEDs and a Midi Clock LED would be very very helpful (as
> > proven by the Oakley MidiDAC2 and Expressionist breakout panel).
> 
> Gate LEDs are 'free', the 4 decimal points in the LED display

If the decimal points are going to indicate gate activity for each 
channel, I assume the actual digits will indicate the note playing? 
(Obviously only when the UI is "idle" - as in, user is not actively 
editing some parameter in a menu.)  That would be pretty cool :)


Someone asked about the possibility of stacking functions onto a 
single TRS jack in order to get certain functions (clocks and whatnot) 
onto dedicated jacks.  As long as there isn't some electrical reason 
not to dot this (not good to short an unused output or whatever) - it 
seems like a neat idea.  So - if it were note and velocity on the same 
jack, ideally the note CV would be on the tip and velocity on the ring 
- that way if you didn't care about the velocity signal (possible) you 
could just use a regular TS patch cable.  And if you want both, you 
could use a TRS "Y" cable.


Seth

--- In motm@y..., "strohs56k" <strohs@e...> wrote:
>
> Someone asked about the possibility of stacking functions onto a 
> single TRS jack in order to get certain functions (clocks and
> whatnot) onto dedicated jacks [...] it seems like a neat idea [...]

After reading more of the posts, I already have second thoughts.  
Maybe it is better NOT to do stacked up functions on TRS jacks - 
instead, have a header on the PCB with those clock signals such that 
if someone really wants dedicated jacks for these, they can be put on 
some type of companion jack panel?


Seth

> It's too bad the 650 is coming out so late in the game. Many people have
> already taken care of their Midi-CV needs including me.
>

Well, I haven't yet.  Since I'm partial to MOTM, I could be willing to wait
until spring for this.  I hope it won't be delayed like some other modules
(that I am also waiting on!).  Since I have the aleatoric bent and am not
much of a keyboardist, I can get by for a while.  Heck, my first cabinet
isn't even half populated and I'm already planning out the second one.

-Richard Brewster

I'd buy one tomorrow.  4 voices foe $229 is killer.

Mike

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-
ch MIDI-CV converter.
> 
> The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm 
asking for your inputs/desires.
> Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:
> 
> a) fits in 2U panel
> b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
> c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY 
shallow)
> d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice 
assignments
> e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is 
used *only* if you SysEx a new OS
> (it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
> f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is 
a 'voice', with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
> There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock 
In. The AUX's are like on a
> Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones) 
MIDI controllers to
> 'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
> g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can 
divide it down, too. May be able to
> clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').
> 
> The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously 
endorsed the '650 (it's not his
> code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need 
more pressure). I'm NOT writing
> the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think 
that it can be a ~$229 assembled
> module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about 
as accurate as I can give. The

> idea is a prototype at NAMM.
> 
> So, I guess what I'm asking is:
> 
> a) what features do you want to see
> b) would you buy one?
> 
> Paul S.

Agreed.  I expect to get one.

I think most of the things I'd want have already been touched on.  I'm glad
to hear it has a clock output option.

I do think it might be useful to have a pitch bend output and be able to
turn the bend effect on the cv down to 0, just to have a controller on the
keyboard that's seperate from pitch some times.  But its not a big deal.

For the aux outputs, will it be possible to get all the aux controllers from
one channel, and cv/gate/velocity from four channels?  Or one "lead" channel
you get all the controllers from and three secondary channels that are just
cv/gate/velocity.

Would it be possible to make the velocity outputs just another set of aux
outputs, and be able to choose velocity or something else?

                                        ...Craig

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mike Marsh" <mmarsh@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:04 PM
Subject: [motm] Re: MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV converter


>
> I'd buy one tomorrow.  4 voices foe $229 is killer.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> > The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-
> ch MIDI-CV converter.
> >
> > The design group for this is in the product definition stage. I'm
> asking for your inputs/desires.
> > Here is what I have sketched out as a first stab:
> >
> > a) fits in 2U panel
> > b) has 4 character, LED alpha-numeric display ("British flag")
> > c) 4 or 5 pushbuttons/LEDs for data entry (the menu is VERY
> shallow)
> > d) 4 channels (ie 4 notes at a time polyphony) with multiple voice
> assignments
> > e) MIDI In on the front. There is a MIDI Out on the pcb that is
> used *only* if you SysEx a new OS
> > (it's used to read back the SW checksums as you dump into it).
> > f) I am thinking 4 rows of 4 jacks. Each horizontal row is
> a 'voice', with CV/Gate/Velocity outs.
> > There are 4 AUX outs, with Aux #4 also sharing Arpeggiator Clock
> In. The AUX's are like on a
> > Kenton Pro-2000, you can select from a FEW (not 45 different ones)
> MIDI controllers to
> > 'intercept' such as Aftertouch.
> > g) AUX #3 can be programmed to be MIDI Clock out, and you can
> divide it down, too. May be able to
> > clock *multiply* it as well (not sure, it's a programming 'trick').
> >
> > The idea is to have a "mini Expressionist". Tony has graciously
> endorsed the '650 (it's not his
> > code), as it takes pressure off on him and onto me (like I need
> more pressure). I'm NOT writing
> > the code, so don't worry (it's generic 8051 assembly). I think
> that it can be a ~$229 assembled
> > module (sorry, all the DACs are SMT). When? "Next Spring" is about
> as accurate as I can give. The
> > idea is a prototype at NAMM.
> >
> > So, I guess what I'm asking is:
> >
> > a) what features do you want to see
> > b) would you buy one?
> >
> > Paul S.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

At 7:33 PM +0000 10/15/02, elhardt@... wrote:
>
>There are a lot of requests for trigger output jacks. Looking at Kentons,
>Encores, and other CD-Midi converters, I don't see them on those big guys.

My Kenton Pro-4 has separate trigger and gate outputs.

>>How about using TRS jacks??  Putting note and velocity on the same
>>jacks will free up four jacks for other features.<<
>
>Wait a second, aren't you the guy who so opposes the use of splitter cables
>with the MOTM? You'd have to buy some of those crappy Radio Shack stereo Y-
>cables for this and then go sifting around to find them. :-0

It would use insert cables, not Y-cables.  Quality insert cables are
available from Clarke, Whirlwind, ProCo, etc.  All of mine have Neutrik
ends.  Besides, insert cables are something most people already use.

In my experience, while CV outputs for velocity might seem utterly
necessary, they are used less often than one might think.  So it might be
more practical to have them on the rings of the note outputs, than on a row
of dedicated jacks.


Anyway, for me all of this largely academic, since I already own a
MIDI-->CV converter.  Although I might want better pitch accuracy at a
later time.  Regardless, a four-channel unit with MOTM build quality for
only $230 is a great deal, even if it doesn't have every feature.

Does the 4 voice polyphony require that the controller be able to send on
more than one midi channel?  I use my Prophet 5 as my only keyboard
modular  controller and it can send midi info on only one of its 5 voices
(am I making sense? - I've avoided this midi stuff as much as possible).
Jeff

> Does the 4 voice polyphony require that the controller be able to send on
> more than one midi channel?  

No. You have 3 choice: 4 notes/1ch, 2 notes/2ch, 4 notes/4ch

Paul S.

Ya know, Paul, this is the most traffic I've seen generated in a 
while.  In my humble opinion, I think there is enough interest here 
to push this up in priority.  I know the software is the long pole, 
but boy I'd *love* to play multiple simultaneous phat notes...not 
that I could actually *play* them very well.

 :)

Mike

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> 
> > Does the 4 voice polyphony require that the controller be able to 
send on

> > more than one midi channel?  
> 
> No. You have 3 choice: 4 notes/1ch, 2 notes/2ch, 4 notes/4ch
> 
> Paul S.

On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Mike Marsh wrote:

> Ya know, Paul, this is the most traffic I've seen generated in a
> while.  In my humble opinion, I think there is enough interest here
> to push this up in priority.  I know the software is the long pole,
> but boy I'd *love* to play multiple simultaneous phat notes...not
> that I could actually *play* them very well.
>
I'm not convinced that the number of messages about the motm 650 alone
indicates a relative interest for one module over another, especially
since many of the messages were option responses to Paul's original motm
650 post.

Paul stated that motm 650 is in "R&D" and there are several modules that have
been in the queue (R&D or otherwise) that IMHO deserve their 'due',
e.g., pan/fade, dual pulse divider (personal biases: Yes).

A better (although still problematic) indicator is to ask for a rank vote
on users' interests in a specified selection of modules.  Paul has done
this in the past, and I suspect would do it again if he has an interest
in knowing our opinions.
Jeff

I would definitely buy one - I might even definAtely buy one :)  (This seems
to be the word-du-jour to misspell on the email lists I read - drives me
crazy!)

For whatever marketing research value it has, here's my situation - which I
suspect is similar to others'.  I'm one of those "inactive" MOTM users :) -
which means that after my initial order (900, 800, 440, 110) I haven't
ordered any more - yet.  I have been saving diligently for the VCOs/MIDI-CV
next, which has been "the big hurdle".  Two 300s and a Kenton Pro 2000
(though I've waffled between the Pro 2000, JKJ CV5, and even the PAiA at
different times - always coming back to the Pro 2000).  Oh yeah, and another
EG for good measure.  In my particular situation, I've "had" to buy a
significant amount of other gear in the year and a half since I made my
first MOTM order (my job as a pastor has expanded to include "worship
pastor" and leading worship in church regularly - probably as close to a
professional musician as I'll ever get :).  I had pretty much decided to get
the VCOs first and then wait until I save for the MIDI-CV later - which
could've been several months later if I went for the Kenton (I'm also one of
those guys for whom this is a luxury).  The 650 just makes things happen
sooner (and better) for me.

There are three main reasons I would buy the 650 over the Kenton - the
price, the quality, and the size/form-factor.  (If I understand correctly
"2U" means a 2U wide MOTM size panel, and not a standard 2U 19" rack panel,
right?)  It's a no brainer for me - I prefer the MIDI-CV to be right in the
cabinet and easily patchable to other modules, I expect the design and build
quality to be as good as Kenton or better, and the price is about half -
sign me up!

As for features, I will want to use it live as a monosynth and in the studio
as a mono/poly with computer control of CV parameters - the basic stuff that
probably everyone here does.  The ability to chain two or more together,
and/or an expansion module sounds good too, so you can add polyphony
gradually as your system grows.  I also like the idea of velocity CV on the
ring of the note CV (assuming that frees up a panel jack for something
else), though without ever using such a system I don't know if this is a
good idea practically speaking.  I don't care much for SW LFOs and
portamento/lag.  I wouldn't mind them, especially until I get my HW modules,
but I would rather not pay for them in the 650 and put the savings toward
the "real thing" in the HW - the MOTM portamento is one of the big draws for
me, the portamento freak.  (Of course since SW is free, you might as well
through them in there for good measure! :)  I'll buy a 650 either way.  In
the end I trust those with more experience with these things - and Paul
especially, based on his output so far - to come up with a feature set that
will serve my basic needs quite well.

Larry David


> The behind-the-scenes R&D activity continues with the MOTM-650 4-ch MIDI-CV
> converter...

<snip>

> ...
> a) what features do you want to see
> b) would you buy one?
> 
> Paul S.

Larry David <ldavid@...> wrote:


> I would definitely buy one - I might even definAtely buy one :)  (This
seems
> to be the word-du-jour to misspell on the email lists I read - drives me
> crazy!)

Guilty as charged. :)

>  (Of course since SW is free, you might as well through
>  them in there for good measure! :)

Being a "softhead" by profession, it always burns me up when I see someone
say:

"Of course since SW is free, you might as well thrOW them in there for good
measure!". (heh)

Hey, it's the old 90/10 rule - the last 10% of any software project takes
90% of the total time - and time is money.

<bfg>

Cheers,
George

>   I'm  also a bit confused about how this works.  I understand what
>you're saying  below but I'm trying to figure out how I would send 4
>played notes over 4  different midi channels.  All my midi tracking has
>been with keyboards or  modules that support multi timberal (sp?) play. 
>That is, each midi channel  has a different patch.   Keyboard wise I have
>a nord lead 2, and old ensoniq VFX that I use  as a controller only, and
>soon a moog voyager.  How would I set any of  these to send 4 played notes
>on 4 different midi channels?   Sorry  if this sounds dense but this is
>territory I haven't visited  yet.   -  chris

Perhaps you are just confused.  You wouldn't do that in order to play a
four-note polyphonic MOTM setup with a MIDI-->CV converter  Instead, you
would use one of its polyphonic modes, with the converter and keyboard on
the same MIDI channel.  Does that make sense??

Anyway, there are controllers that can output more than one MIDI channel at
a time (eg. keyboard splits), and there are people who use more than one
controller.  However, one of the most common ways to use several channels
at once is with a MIDI sequencer.  This is especially useful when trying to
get several patches to work together.

groovyshamon writes: >>Hey, it's the old 90/10 rule - the last 10% of any 
software project takes 90% of the total time - and time is money.<<

That doesn't appear to be the case these days. Now the last part of a software 
project is rushing the product out the door to meet short deadlines with 
unimplimented features and lots of bugs.

Just found an old trial version of Steinberg's Wavelab on my drive, installed 
it and tried out the 3D spectrum graphing. The freqencies are off by about 2 
octaves! It's totally useless. Who writes this crap? I'm convinced that the 
world will never see a future piece of software that actually works. Never.

-Elhardt

"I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled. 
Do you suppose I come to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to 
bring division."

<elhardt@...> wrote:

> groovyshamon writes: >>Hey, it's the old 90/10 rule - the last 10% of any
> software project takes 90% of the total time - and time is money.<<
>
> That doesn't appear to be the case these days. Now the last part of a
software
> project is rushing the product out the door to meet short deadlines with
> unimplimented features and lots of bugs.

Ha! Totally spot on Ken!

> I'm convinced that the world will never
> see a future piece of software that actually works. Never.

At least not until I find my next contract.  ;)  Jeeze, they hire 6 H1B's to
replace me at 1/6 the price - seems no one has the money to do it right the
first time, but then they always seem to have the money to do it [at least]
twice!

Cheers,
George

> Larry David <ldavid@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I would definitely buy one - I might even definAtely buy one :)  (This
> seems
>> to be the word-du-jour to misspell on the email lists I read - drives me
>> crazy!)
> 
> Guilty as charged. :)
> 
>> (Of course since SW is free, you might as well through
>> them in there for good measure! :)
> 
> Being a "softhead" by profession, it always burns me up when I see someone
> say:
> 
> "Of course since SW is free, you might as well thrOW them in there for good
> measure!". (heh)

HA HA HA!  (That's longhand for "LOL" :)  Touche!  I knew I would likely
misspell something if I put that bit in there - but I also prepared my
defense in advance:  as you can clearly see, my mistake above is a typo,
rather than a misspellling - i.e. "through" is spelled correctly, it's just
the wrong word. :->

In case it wasn't obvious (I can't tell for sure from your response) I was
joking when I said SW is free.  When I was in grad school, supposedly doing
"original research", someone following me around all day would have thought
my job was "computer programmer" - I spent 10% of my time reading papers and
cooking up my auditory modelling theory and 90% of my time trying to write C
code to implement and test it...

In my experience, the only people who really think SW is (more or less) free
have never written any.

Larry

--- In motm@y..., elhardt@a... wrote:
> That doesn't appear to be the case these days. Now the last part
> of a software project is rushing the product out the door to meet
> short deadlines with unimplimented features and lots of bugs.

!!!  :)

Sorry - I just found it necessary to nod in agreement.

> --- In motm@y..., elhardt@a... wrote:
> > That doesn't appear to be the case these days. Now the last part
> > of a software project is rushing the product out the door to meet
> > short deadlines with unimplimented features and lots of bugs.
>
> !!!  :)
>
> Sorry - I just found it necessary to nod in agreement.
>

Not hard to agree, is it?

To bring this back on topic, firmware for a product like the MOTM-650 is not
likely to be as buggy as desktop software, for one because the amount of
code is small.   And because the functionality is also relatively small,
making it easier to test.  But OTOH, most software of any kind has lurking
bugs.  To turn this into a question, how easy will it be to upgrade the
firmware in MOTM digital modules?

-Richard Brewster  (Yes, I develop software as my regular job.  I've done
embedded work, too, in C for the 80186.)

I'll have to agree on the Pan and Fade module. I've also been anticipating it's release and plan to buy one (or two!) as soon as it becomes available.

 Andrew


In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:28:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpont@... writes:

> Paul stated that motm 650 is in "R&D" and there are several modules that have
> been in the queue (R&D or otherwise) that IMHO deserve their 'due',
> e.g., pan/fade, dual pulse divider (personal biases: Yes).

> b) would you buy one?

Definitely! I'll buy the sequencer module first though. I still haven't
found "the right keyboard" in CV form, so I'm using MIDI to drive my modules
(when modules or triggers aren't sufficient). The converter you're
describing seems VERY nice, and doesn't directly compete with anything else
available -- another MOTM original concept :-)

best,
- Scott
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