Yahoo Groups archive

MOTM

Index last updated: 2026-04-03 01:33 UTC

Thread

MOTM-300 questions/problems...

MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-17 by John Speth

Hello VCO builders-

Just finished building my 2nd MOTM-300 and I've noticed a couple of 
oddities.  I'd like to compare notes with other builders to make sure 
nothing is wrong with my VCOs.

1. Tuning - has anybody been able to adjust the 1V/oct dead on?  I know 
this is basically impossible but I'd think that over 5 octaves (which is 
the range I tune over), I should easily be able to tune so I get a slow 
phasing type beating between my reference oscillator (a digitial synth 
generating a sine) and the MOTM-300.  The pot seems so touchy when you zero 
in on that "perfect tune" point that actually nailing it with a slight turn 
of the pot happens more by luck than by anything else - in other words you 
can't turn it small enough which is what you need to do.  Has anybody else 
had this problem?

2. Dirty coarse freq pot? - I noticed that when I turn the coarse freq pot 
I hear a little dirt in the sweep of the frequency of the VCO.  I was 
hoping for a good clean sweep just as if a freq CV input sweep was driving 
it but it sounds to me like the coarse freq pot is dirty a bit.  Has 
anybody else noticed this?  This happens on both of my MOTM-300s one 
slightly worse than the other.  Maybe because the ear is so sensitive to 
pitch this problem is unavoidable?

3. Hard sync - it says in my manual that any waveform will work as a source 
for hard sync but after carefully looking over the schematic, it looks to 
me like only waveforms having a fast fall time will actually work (the 
pulse signal or the syncIO jack when set to soft).  My experience confirms 
this.  Have I completely missed the idea on this or is this truly the way 
it should work?  Is the manual wrong?

John Speth (just trying to understand it all)
Object Engineering, Inc
mailto:johns@...

RE: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-17 by Tkacs, Ken

I'm hoping to build my first MOTM-300 VCO kit this weekend, so I'll let you
know.

I'm disappointed to hear about the 'scratchy' tuning pot. I used to use an
old Electrocomp synth in my college music lab, and with that VCO you could
smoothly sweep the oscillator from one end of the audio spectrum to the
other with one twist of the big knob (it had a REALLY _big knob_). So it's
not 'unavoidable.' Other synths I have used have had less range, but
considering the high quality of the MOTM kits & components, I was really
hoping for a smooth sweep like you're describing.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	John Speth [mailto:johns@...]
		Sent:	Friday, September 17, 1999 12:13 PM
		To:	MOTM List (E-mail)
		Subject:	[motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...

		From: John Speth <johns@...>

		I'd like to compare notes with other builders to make sure
nothing is wrong with my VCOs.

		1. Tuning 

		2. Dirty coarse freq pot

		3. Hard 

		John Speth (just trying to understand it all)

RE: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-17 by Dave Bradley

> 1. Tuning - has anybody been able to adjust the 1V/oct dead on?  I know
> this is basically impossible but I'd think that over 5 octaves (which is
> the range I tune over), I should easily be able to tune so I get a slow
> phasing type beating between my reference oscillator (a digitial synth
> generating a sine) and the MOTM-300.  The pot seems so touchy
> when you zero
> in on that "perfect tune" point that actually nailing it with a
> slight turn
> of the pot happens more by luck than by anything else - in other
> words you
> can't turn it small enough which is what you need to do.  Has
> anybody else
> had this problem?

I built 4, and was able to get 3 of the 4 to track well. The 4th seems to
have a slight anamoly in the hi freq tracking which makes it less accurate
above 1-2 kHz. Maybe a slightly out of spec hi freq tracking resistor. (Most
older VCO designs had a separate trimmer for high frequency tracking - talk
about hard to adjust!)

The pots ARE a little touchy, even though they are multiturn. It's hard to
get it perfect. You learn to kind of 'lean' on the screwdriver instead of
trying to turn it when you get very close to where you want.

You also might consider trying to find 20 turn pots to replace the 10 turn
pots for more control.

> 2. Dirty coarse freq pot? - I noticed that when I turn the coarse
> freq pot
> I hear a little dirt in the sweep of the frequency of the VCO.  I was
> hoping for a good clean sweep just as if a freq CV input sweep
> was driving
> it but it sounds to me like the coarse freq pot is dirty a bit.

I haven't noticed this, I'll recheck and report back. It may be a natural
consequence of having the pot sweep the entire frequency range - it's more
sensitive than a design where you have a range switch and a more limited
coarse sweep range.

> 3. Hard sync - it says in my manual that any waveform will work
> as a source
> for hard sync but after carefully looking over the schematic, it looks to
> me like only waveforms having a fast fall time will actually work (the
> pulse signal or the syncIO jack when set to soft).  My experience
> confirms
> this.  Have I completely missed the idea on this or is this truly the way
> it should work?  Is the manual wrong?

You are correct, it will work best with a fast falling edge waveform. Soft
sync absolutely requires a fast falling edge. Paul recommends connecting the
sync jacks together, and setting 1 sw. to hard, the other to soft.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

Re: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-17 by Paul Schreiber

>
>1. Tuning - has anybody been able to adjust the 1V/oct dead on


Each VCO will be diferent. I have built about 12, and probably 8 came
quickly to
"perfect" The other 4 took some back&forth compromises. (BTW: the pot is a
20-turn unit).
However, even the 'worst' one was within 0.65Hz over 5 octaves.

I use a $3000 Philips freq counter with oven time base. Just a guess, but
the digital synth
is not as accurate as you think!

>
>2. Dirty coarse freq pot? - I noticed that when I turn the coarse freq pot
>I hear a little dirt in the sweep of the frequency of the VCO


This may be for several reasons:

a) the pot is cermet. This is for temperature stability. As a test, unsolder
the 2 sets of wires,
and use the WIDTH pot. This pot is a Bourns conductive plastic unit. Not as
temperature
stable, but uses a different conductive element. The cermet may be
"rougher".

I will happily send a Bourns pot to anyone that proves this is a "fix".

b) There are 5 seperate servo loops, all adding correction voltages to the
VCO.
Remember, turning the pot is a 10 octave move. The servos may 'jitter'.

However, if 1V/OCT input, using a full -5V to +5V sweep, *does not* do this,
it's the pot.


>3. Hard sync - it says in my manual that any waveform will work as a source
>for hard sync

It's a little misleading. Yes, you need a saw or pulse. The SYNC I/O is a
narrow pulse.

Paul S.



>

Re: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-18 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: John Speth <johns@...>
> 1. Tuning - has anybody been able to adjust the 1V/oct dead on?  I know 
> this is basically impossible but I'd think that over 5 octaves (which is 
> the range I tune over), I should easily be able to tune so I get a slow 
> phasing type beating between my reference oscillator (a digitial synth 
> generating a sine) and the MOTM-300.  The pot seems so touchy when you
zero 
> in on that "perfect tune" point that actually nailing it with a slight
turn 
> of the pot happens more by luck than by anything else - in other words
you 
> can't turn it small enough which is what you need to do.  Has anybody
else 
> had this problem?

I tried the tuning against a digital synth tuning option and found it to be
a very bad idea.  Especially if the digital synth is really a sample based
machine.  I found that it was not very accurate at all.

I had best luck beating the VCO against another fixed oscillator that did
not change during the tuning.  So, you beat the oscillator under tune to
the other oscillator at varied intervals (mostly octaves).  And,
surprisingly enough, it is often easier to hear the beat from an octave or
two off rather than right at the same note.

Here's one idea I found useful.  Tune your reference VCO (tuning not to
important) to an interval easy to beat against at the high end of your
scale range.  Put that output into a MOTM-120 sub oct and you can use the
varied outputs (exact frequency divisions) for up to 5 different tuning
points to compare the oscillator under tune without one moving the
reference oscillator.

I also found some tracking error introduced by my Kenton.  The error was
very small, BUT, it was enough to show up when comparing to a reference
oscillator.  Out of curiosity, I compared the Kenton to my only V/OCT
control voltage synth (MicroMoog) and found the Kenton about 5 times as
accurate as the Moog.

When you get your oscillators tracking together, the error introduced by
your controller will be almost none since the error goes to both.

Lastly, I was not able to get both oscillators absolutely perfectly the
same.  They are VERY close.  Once you do get them tracking the same, any
error can be diminished by doing your initial beating together at the very
top end of your scale range.  Errors as you go DOWN from there will be
reduced frequency as the overall frequency is lower.  When you are soft
syncing, you will find this method works to eliminate any beating.  Trying
to zero beat at the lower frequencies when making your initial patch tuning
will leave you disappointed.

On the subject of a touchy fine pot for zero beating (not to be confused
with scratchy), I do agree somewhat.  This seems to be the by-product of
giving the fine tuning pot such a large range.  I thought once or twice
that I might like the fine tuning pot to have a smaller range and be easier
to zero-beat (not so touchy).  This should be an easy modification if you
are interested (slap me if I say anything stupid or incorrect Paul).

Increasing the size of resistor R3 should lessen the range of the fine
tuning control and make it less touchy.  However, you must be careful to
use precision resistors as Paul did to eliminate drift.  One easy way to
make a range switch would be to add another 3M32 resistor just like the one
on the board (so no complaints from Paul).  Solder it from terminal to
terminal across the back of a SPST switch, so in one position the resistor
is shorted out.  Connect the lead normally going to the # 2 pin of the fine
pot to one side of the switch.  Connect the other side of the switch to the
# 2 pin on the fine pot.  This arrangement would give "normal" fine range
to the control as Paul had intended it in one position and another switch
position for less touchy, smaller tuning range to the fine control.  If I
were doing it however, I would size the added resistor so that in series
with the 3M32 it provided exactly 1/2 cent up and down on the fine control
in the "less touchy range."
Finally, I think since there is not room really left on the panel for a
switch, it would be SUPER cool (big dream here) if the fine tune pot
actually had a switch (push-pull) for the different ranges.

Of course, if you don't mind the overall reduction in range of the fine
pot, just putting an appropriately sized larger resistor on the board in
place of R3 makes the zero-beating tuning less touchy.  Again, be sure to
use the same precision resistor specified by Paul.

Disclaimer:  These are all the ideas of a totally unqualified Stooge
(Larry, that is).  Please consult Paul before actually following any of my
stupid advice.

Larry Hendry

Re: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-18 by JWBarlow@xxx.xxx

Can't let a day go by without a post now can I.

In a message dated 9/17/99 9:13:55 AM, johns@... writes:

>2. Dirty coarse freq pot? - I noticed that when I turn the coarse freq
>pot 
>I hear a little dirt in the sweep of the frequency of the VCO.  I was 
>hoping for a good clean sweep just as if a freq CV input sweep was driving
>it but it sounds to me like the coarse freq pot is dirty a bit.

I'm going to ask how if you're using the heat shrink tubing over the 
connections, and if so are you using a heat shrink gun? I'm quite sure I 
cooked the CV MOD pot on my MOTM 110 by using the soldering iron near the 
tubing in order to shrink it -- the pot only burned out in one small area at 
the far clockwise side, and was therefore very difficult to figgur out what 
was wrong. If you get desperate for a solution, you might try disconnecting 
the pot and subbing in any (new) pot of the same value to see how it behaves, 
and if it works, replace the pot.

And of course do everything that Dave, Larry, and Paul have already said.
JB

Re: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-09-18 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> And of course do everything that Dave, Larry, and Paul have already said.
> JB

Oh, I see you're being a wise guy again.
LH

Re: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-10-09 by Paul Schreiber

How did your VCO sound? Any scratchy-ness?

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken <Ken.Tkacs@...>
To: 'motm@onelist.com' <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 11:19 AM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...


>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
>I'm hoping to build my first MOTM-300 VCO kit this weekend, so I'll let you
>know.
>
>I'm disappointed to hear about the 'scratchy' tuning pot. I used to use an
>old Electrocomp synth in my college music lab, and with that VCO you could
>smoothly sweep the oscillator from one end of the audio spectrum to the
>other with one twist of the big knob (it had a REALLY _big knob_). So it's
>not 'unavoidable.' Other synths I have used have had less range, but
>considering the high quality of the MOTM kits & components, I was really
>hoping for a smooth sweep like you're describing.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Speth [mailto:johns@...]
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 12:13 PM
> To: MOTM List (E-mail)
> Subject: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...
>
> From: John Speth <johns@...>
>
> I'd like to compare notes with other builders to make sure
>nothing is wrong with my VCOs.
>
> 1. Tuning
>
> 2. Dirty coarse freq pot
>
> 3. Hard
>
> John Speth (just trying to understand it all)
>
>
>>

RE: MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-10-11 by Tkacs, Ken

Thanks for asking! I am really embarrassed to admit this, but... 

I haven't tried it yet! I built the power supply and VCO weeks ago and I
still haven't fired them up! They are sitting side-by-side on my dining room
table so that I can admire them while I eat, but I haven't actually powered
them up. (Okay, I did turn on the power supply and measure the outputs of
that with my DVM-which were rock solid 15.00 /  -15.01, and that made me
very happy.)

Partially, it's a fear that they will both catch fire (my first module...I'm
very superstitious, even with 20 years of electronic tinkering under my
belt), but mostly it's because I have a newborn son that is consuming my
left arm (even now as I agonizingly type this with one finger!) and every
waking hour. I really have to get my wife to take him for a while so that I
can try out my new equipment, but she thinks I'm deserting her when I leave
the room. Plus the never-ending parade of relatives...I never thought it
would be like this. So I apologize to you for not having a report on the VCO
yet. Hopefully soon.

As long as you are on the line, the next two modules I was planning on
purchasing are the S&H and the EG. But as I understand it, both are
undergoing some small upgrades. Do you have any idea when the revised
versions of these might be available...?

Seems stupid for a guy who built a module a month ago and still hasn't
plugged it in to be asking when he can order the next, but... that's the
nature of my upside-down life right now. I just want to keep 'em coming! In
my bachelor days, I'd have signed up with your subscription service in a
heartbeat. But with the new kid & all, I just can't commit like that right
now. Maybe someday.

I can't congratulate you (yet) on the electronics of the VCO, because I
haven't yet heard it, but let me tell you how impressed I am with the entire
package, and with the great care you have taken with the 'mechanicals' of
the module. It's very solid! Nicely done. I would love to know how you
attached hardware to the aluminum faceplate. Certainly not solder. Brazing?
Welding? Beats the hell out of "L" brackets with ugly screws showing up
front.

Definitely something to be proud of for both of us-you for creating it and
me for assembling and just owning it! That's half the reason I think I leave
it on the dining room table-I love people to see those two modules as a
centerpiece and ask, "What are those??" I love showing them off. Wait until
I can actually make music with them!

Thanks much!!!!!!!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
		Sent:	Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:50 AM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	Re: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...

		From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>

		How did your VCO sound? Any scratchy-ness?

		Paul S.

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Tkacs, Ken <Ken.Tkacs@...>
		To: 'motm@onelist.com' <motm@onelist.com>
		Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 11:19 AM
		Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...


		>From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
		>
		>
		>I'm hoping to build my first MOTM-300 VCO kit this weekend,
so I'll let you
		>know.
		>
		>I'm disappointed to hear about the 'scratchy' tuning pot. I
used to use an
		>old Electrocomp synth in my college music lab, and with
that VCO you could
		>smoothly sweep the oscillator from one end of the audio
spectrum to the
		>other with one twist of the big knob (it had a REALLY _big
knob_). So it's
		>not 'unavoidable.' Other synths I have used have had less
range, but
		>considering the high quality of the MOTM kits & components,
I was really
		>hoping for a smooth sweep like you're describing.
		>
		>
		>
		> -----Original Message-----
		> From: John Speth [mailto:johns@...]
		> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 12:13 PM
		> To: MOTM List (E-mail)
		> Subject: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...
		>
		> From: John Speth <johns@...>
		>
		> I'd like to compare notes with other builders to make sure
		>nothing is wrong with my VCOs.
		>
		> 1. Tuning
		>
		> 2. Dirty coarse freq pot
		>
		> 3. Hard
		>
		> John Speth (just trying to understand it all)
		>
		>
		>>

		--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------

		Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
		<a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Productopia1 ">Click
Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

MOTM-300 questions/problems...

1999-10-12 by Tkacs, Ken

Thanks for asking! I am really embarrassed to admit this, but... 

I haven't tried it yet! I built the power supply and VCO weeks ago and I
still haven't fired them up! They are sitting side-by-side on my dining room
table so that I can admire them while I eat, but I haven't actually powered
them up. (Okay, I did turn on the power supply and measure the outputs of
that with my DVM-which were rock solid 15.00 /  -15.01, and that made me
very happy.)

Partially, it's a fear that they will both catch fire (my first MOTM
module...I'm very superstitious, even with 20 years of electronic tinkering
under my belt), but mostly it's because I have a newborn son that is
consuming my left arm (even now as I agonizingly type this with one finger!)
and every waking hour. I really have to get my wife to take him for a while
so that I can try out my new equipment, but she thinks I'm deserting her
when I leave the room. Plus the never-ending parade of relatives...I never
thought it would be like this. So I apologize to you for not having a report
on the VCO yet. Hopefully soon.

By the way, the next two modules I was planning on purchasing are the S&H
and the EG. But as I understand it, both are undergoing some small upgrades.
Do you have any idea when the revised versions of these might be
available...?

Seems stupid for a guy who built a module a month ago and still hasn't
plugged it in to be asking when he can order the next, but... that's the
nature of my upside-down life right now. I just want to keep 'em coming! In
my bachelor days, I'd have signed up with your subscription service in a
heartbeat. But with the new kid & all, I just can't commit like that right
now. Maybe someday.

I can't congratulate you (yet) on the electronics of the VCO, because I
haven't yet heard it, but let me tell you how impressed I am with the entire
package, and with the great care you have taken with the 'mechanicals' of
the module. It's very solid! Nicely done. I would love to know how you
attached hardware to the aluminum faceplate. Certainly not solder. Brazing?
Welding? Beats the hell out of "L" brackets with ugly screws showing up
front.

Definitely something to be proud of for both of us-you for creating it and
me for assembling and just owning it! That's half the reason I think I leave
it on the dining room table-I love people to see those two modules as a
centerpiece and ask, "What are those??" I love showing them off. Wait until
I can actually make music with them!

Thanks much!!!!!!!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
<mailto:[mailto:synth1@...]> 
		Sent:	Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:50 AM
		To:	motm@onelist.com <mailto:motm@onelist.com> 
		Subject:	Re: [motm] MOTM-300 questions/problems...

		From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...
<mailto:synth1@...> >

		How did your VCO sound? Any scratchy-ness?

		Paul S.