MOTM

Bingo and Cha-ching. Kudos to Paul and John Blacet for supplying schematics.

While I am not critical of the business model that supplies only a finished
product without schematics, I must say I prefer what John and Paul do.  I
feel like I am getting something extra for my money when I assemble these
kits as I learn something from each.  No, I'm not interesting in soldering
SMD.  But, I would be interested in sticking my nose into learning more
about how my stuff ticks.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: <mark@...>
the point has been made that pre-assembled 3rd-party
"MOTM" modules are not as educational or as easy to
modify as those that come with schematics.  That's why
I asked.

At 4:06 PM -0600 01/19/02, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
>
>Bingo and Cha-ching. Kudos to Paul and John Blacet for supplying >schematics.
>
>While I am not critical of the business model that supplies only a finished
>product without schematics, I must say I prefer what John and Paul do.  I
>feel like I am getting something extra for my money when I assemble these
>kits as I learn something from each.  No, I'm not interesting in soldering
>SMD.  But, I would be interested in sticking my nose into learning more
>about how my stuff ticks.

The funny thing is, that in the pro-audio world, schematics are readily
available.  This goes double for broadcast equipment.  For example, if you
buy an Aphex Dominator, schematics and parts lists are automatically
included.  When I bought my Drawmer 1960, it came with a service manual
that not only included schematics and calibration procedures for the unit I
bought, but for every other revision up to that point.  I would be more
than shocked if I called dBx or Crown, and they told me they couldn't send
me the service docs.  Although some companies charge their customers a
nominal fee, many companies will gladly send you schematics for evaluation
purposes before you decide to buy their product.

Of course, this isn't true for consumer audio.  I remember Harmon-Kardon
telling me "it's only available for their authorized service dealers".  I'm
not going to type my reply, because I know many of you have kids who might
be watching :)

Synth companies are somewhere in the middle.  I have the service docs for
all my Roland gear (which I bought for $15-20 each), but I remember I
couldn't get the schematics for my MAM VF11 or Niche ACM.  At first glance,
it seems that smaller companies don't make their schematics available and
larger companies do, because larger companies could always hire an army of
lawyers if someone tried to steal their designs.  Then again, Synthesis
Technology and Blacet Research are very small companies.  Yes, I know
including schematics is necessary because they sell kits, but it's also
unlikely that a competitor could offer a "clone" for less money without
making significant sacrifices in quality.  The same applies to people
cloning gear for their own use -- by the time they bought all of the parts,
and had the panel and PCB fabricated, it would cost more than the kit.

I think companies are all over the map in this area. I've given out
schematics on a need to know basis, but most people really don't need to
know this info.

I've worked for several pro audio and consumer audio companies, and if the
company is small and does't have a repair network, then all defective
products must come back to the factory for repair anyway and in that case,
what's the point in releasing schematics?

I personally like to have them for things so I can fix them, but when there
is custom programmable logic involved, I can't do repairs on that anyway.

Maybe when I retire, all this stuff will be released in the public domain.
In the meantime, I'm here to fix anything that may break. (Which is less
than 0.20%)

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mark@... [mailto:mark@...]
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 8:56 AM
> To: J. Larry Hendry
> Cc: MOTM List
> Subject: [motm] supplying schematics (was: Lord of the Ring Mod)
>
>
> At 4:06 PM -0600 01/19/02, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
> >
> >Bingo and Cha-ching. Kudos to Paul and John Blacet for supplying
> >schematics.
> >
> >While I am not critical of the business model that supplies only
> a finished
> >product without schematics, I must say I prefer what John and Paul do.  I
> >feel like I am getting something extra for my money when I assemble these
> >kits as I learn something from each.  No, I'm not interesting in
> soldering
> >SMD.  But, I would be interested in sticking my nose into learning more
> >about how my stuff ticks.
>
> The funny thing is, that in the pro-audio world, schematics are readily
> available.  This goes double for broadcast equipment.  For example, if you
> buy an Aphex Dominator, schematics and parts lists are automatically
> included.  When I bought my Drawmer 1960, it came with a service manual
> that not only included schematics and calibration procedures for
> the unit I
> bought, but for every other revision up to that point.  I would be more
> than shocked if I called dBx or Crown, and they told me they couldn't send
> me the service docs.  Although some companies charge their customers a
> nominal fee, many companies will gladly send you schematics for evaluation
> purposes before you decide to buy their product.
>
> Of course, this isn't true for consumer audio.  I remember Harmon-Kardon
> telling me "it's only available for their authorized service
> dealers".  I'm
> not going to type my reply, because I know many of you have kids who might
> be watching :)
>
> Synth companies are somewhere in the middle.  I have the service docs for
> all my Roland gear (which I bought for $15-20 each), but I remember I
> couldn't get the schematics for my MAM VF11 or Niche ACM.  At
> first glance,
> it seems that smaller companies don't make their schematics available and
> larger companies do, because larger companies could always hire an army of
> lawyers if someone tried to steal their designs.  Then again, Synthesis
> Technology and Blacet Research are very small companies.  Yes, I know
> including schematics is necessary because they sell kits, but it's also
> unlikely that a competitor could offer a "clone" for less money without
> making significant sacrifices in quality.  The same applies to people
> cloning gear for their own use -- by the time they bought all of
> the parts,
> and had the panel and PCB fabricated, it would cost more than the kit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

At 1:55 PM -0800 01/29/02, Tony Karavidas wrote:
>
>I think companies are all over the map in this area. I've given out
>schematics on a need to know basis, but most people really don't need to
>know this info.

Needing to know, and wanting to know, are two different things.  Many of
the people who build motm are interested in electronics and like to know
how their modules work.  I'm not just buying a modular, I'm buying an
education  :)

>I've worked for several pro audio and consumer audio companies, and if the
>company is small and does't have a repair network, then all defective
>products must come back to the factory for repair anyway and in that case,
>what's the point in releasing schematics?

Why should it have to come back to the manufacturer??  There often isn't
time for that.

>I personally like to have them for things so I can fix them, but when there
>is custom programmable logic involved, I can't do repairs on that anyway.

Logic rarely breaks, but other parts do.  I've had to replace LED's, LED
drivers, pots, switches, jacks, output amps, backup batteries, power supply
parts, etc., on many devices that used microprocessors.

Furthermore, if a product depends on custom programmable logic, then there
is little risk of someone stealing your design.  Otoh, I have spoken with
people who have said that they wouldn't buy a UEG or another UEG partly
because it doesn't come with schematics.  If it had the schematics, then
maybe I could add a little daughter board to generate triggers or debounce
the switch.

>Maybe when I retire, all this stuff will be released in the public domain.
>In the meantime, I'm here to fix anything that may break. (Which is less
>than 0.20%)

Encore makes excellent products, but it's still a one-man company.  What if
you're abducted by aliens or go into the witness protection program??  :)
If Paul S. is in a propane explosion or there's a mechanical bull incident,
I already have the schematics and parts list in case something breaks.
Even if I couldn't fix it myself, I could give them to a more qualified
technician.

> 
> Encore makes excellent products, but it's still a one-man company.  What if
> you're abducted by aliens or go into the witness protection program??  :)
> If Paul S. is in a propane explosion or there's a mechanical bull incident,
> I already have the schematics and parts list in case something breaks.

Great. Tony disappears in a cool fashion, I get the low-life trailer treatment :(

Paul S.

Radio Shack used to supply schematics in their manuals. I fixed a few
things using that info.

Ham radio gear typically comes with schematics (hams are expected to be
a least a bit technically competent by license).

I've also been sucessful in a lot of cases getting factory service
manuals for VCRs, camcorders, etc. They can cost $20-50 or more.

Actually, the schematics and contents of our manuals are protected (in
theory) by the California Uniform Trade Secrets Act. There is a notice
on the front cover and schematics of all manuals written or updated in
the last two years. By purchasing the product and opening the manual,
the customer assumes a responsibility to make reasonable efforts to
assure the confidentiality of the material.

Regards,
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

In a message dated 1/30/02 10:50:46 AM, synth1@... writes:

<< Great. Tony disappears in a cool fashion, I get the low-life trailer 
treatment :( >>

Must be Tony's sporty new haircut.  Put a pair of stylish shades on him and 
he could pass for a mob informant.  Or an electronic engineer.  Getting to be 
a fine line between those two professions.

Ivan