Yahoo Groups archive

MOTM

Index last updated: 2026-04-03 22:10 UTC

Thread

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-06 by Gur Milstein

i agree with Seth,a clean and quiet as possible.
allso a mic input would be great.

a tube module could allso be an intresting idea.

thanx
Gur Milstein

At 09:07 07/09/99 -0700, Seth Redmore wrote:
>From: Seth Redmore <sredmore@...>
>
>I vote for skipping the distortion, and keeping it as simple, clean, and
quiet
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>as possible.  Hey, if I want good distortion, I just beat up on my '420's.
>Granted, not quite the same as tube distortion, but then again, I have boxes
>that do that, too.
>
>(now, how bout that, a tube distortion module :) ).
>
>--Seth
>
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist announces "FRIENDS & FAMILY!"
>For details, including our weekly drawing, go to
>http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Paul Schreiber

Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:

1 "guitar" level input
2 "synth/line" level inputs

3 volume pots

The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
(like 15). The
point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.

But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
servo amps
with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!

So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
patchable *DISTORTION*
unit?

Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics of
OLD guitar pedals. What's
your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).

Lastly : out of pocket Thursday PM til Sun PM. Off to see Doug Curtis. (hee
hee).

Paul S.

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by J. Larry Hendry

Well, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth (I always do).  I like your
original idea of the triple preamp.  I the inputs that accomodate the
various inmput levels are great.  Distortion... Well, OK.  So, If I
understand this, we are still talking about a 1U module with two clean
channels, one for guitar levels and one for synth / line levels?  Then the
distortion unit could be patched into either (or neither) ??  Next question
from the clearly uninformed...  Can a front panel switch be used to change
the input level of the preamps?  Does that put too much on the panels?  Or,
could the preamps be "user configurable" so they could be built as one of
each level or both one or the other?  Or, could there be a trimmer (on the
board to trim for either level input) so that each could be adjusted to the
gain choice of the user and changed when he changed his mind?

These are not suggestions for change, only questions to dig out the
options.  Some users might never use the guitar level input and would like
the two synth levels.  Some users might like two guitar inputs so one could
be clean and one patched with the distortion and use a MOTM-700 to select
which one to connect the guitar to (now that is a fancy A/B switch).

Anyhows.  Build it and they will buy (I know I will).

Larry H

----------
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> To: MOTM listserv <motm@onelist.com>
> Subject: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 12:53 AM
> 
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:
> 
> 1 "guitar" level input
> 2 "synth/line" level inputs
> 
> 3 volume pots
> 
> The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
> (like 15). The
> point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.
> 
> But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile
DC
> servo amps
> with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!
> 
> So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a
seperate
> patchable *DISTORTION*
> unit?
> 
> Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics
of
> OLD guitar pedals. What's
> your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).
> 
> Lastly : out of pocket Thursday PM til Sun PM. Off to see Doug Curtis.
(hee
> hee).
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, 
> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
today!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by thudson@xxxxxx.xxx

Paul Schreiber wrote:

> Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics of
> OLD guitar pedals. What's
> your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).

Univibe, univibe, univibe!!!

I drool at the possibility of univibe sound w/ MOTM quality.

While one could argue that the univibe is simply a phasor, the
sound is somehow different. Some suggest it is due to staggered
cap values (powers of ten I believe). J.H. suggested a
voltage controlled offset bypassing the exponential converter
w/ different resistor values for each stage, i.e. at zero volts 
the stages are equal, more voltage changes the spread between
stages.

Other fun guitar effects:
- Fuzz Face (hard to find germanium transistors)
- Electric Mistress Flanger (did this use sad bbs?)
- ts-9 tube screamer (somewhat dependent on jcr4558 op amps
but Jack Orman suggests some mods for using OP275s and others
(http://www.muzique.com/amz/latch.htm)

R. Keen's site is also a good resource: http://www.geofex.com/

And if you really want to make guitarists happy, and force them 
to buy six times as many MOTM modules, a hex preamp adapter for the
roland sk2 pickup. I can only dream about a hex pitch-to-voltage 
convert...

Thomas

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Tentochi

I personally am not interested in the guitar level inputs.
I really won't find much use for a distortion at the input stage either.

Will it handle microphone levels???  This sounds like it would be of more
use to some of us.

I like the idea of multiple (3) synth/line level inputs!!!

This will be 1U right?

--Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:
>
> 1 "guitar" level input
> 2 "synth/line" level inputs
>
> 3 volume pots
>
> The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
> (like 15). The
> point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.
>
> But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
> servo amps
> with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!
>
> So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
> patchable *DISTORTION*
> unit?
>
> Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics of
> OLD guitar pedals. What's
> your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by james holloway

Will the Guitar input also be useful as a Mic. preamp? I need a mic. preamp 
input. Especially when we get the envelope follower module.
Thanks
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>Reply-To: motm@onelist.com
>To: "MOTM listserv" <motm@onelist.com>
>Subject: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:53:35 -0500
>
>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
>Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:
>
>1 "guitar" level input
>2 "synth/line" level inputs
>
>3 volume pots
>
>The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
>(like 15). The
>point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.
>
>But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
>servo amps
>with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!
>
>So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
>patchable *DISTORTION*
>unit?
>
>Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics of
>OLD guitar pedals. What's
>your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).
>
>Lastly : out of pocket Thursday PM til Sun PM. Off to see Doug Curtis. (hee
>hee).
>
>Paul S.
>
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
>NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online today!
>      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Dave Bradley

I personally need 2 inputs to handle line level (e.g. stereo drum machine),
and 1 to handle mic level input.

I don't need guitar.

Distortion would be OK, but not at the expense of the 3 inputs mentioned
above.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:
>
> 1 "guitar" level input
> 2 "synth/line" level inputs
>
> 3 volume pots
>
> The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
> (like 15). The
> point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.
>
> But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
> servo amps
> with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!
>
> So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
> patchable *DISTORTION*
> unit?

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Dave Bradley

> Univibe, univibe, univibe!!!

Thomas, you're cheating! Trying to sneak a phasor in when he mentions
distortion<g>! Remember Paul mentioning a possible phasor module awhile back
that was based on the Arp Quadra design?

Dave

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Paul Schreiber

The ARP has too many parts! The Univibe has about half of the ARPs.

The MXR phaser has fewer still! :)

Paul S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Bradley <daveb@...>
To: motm@onelist.com <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp


>From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
>
>> Univibe, univibe, univibe!!!
>
>Thomas, you're cheating! Trying to sneak a phasor in when he mentions
>distortion<g>! Remember Paul mentioning a possible phasor module awhile
back
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>that was based on the Arp Quadra design?
>
>Dave
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist members: don't miss out on the latest news at ONElist
>Join our community member news update at
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter5 ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Paul Schreiber

Mics are probably best handled by your little Mackie mixer :)

Because, you need to handle both XLR and dynamic, phantom power, blah blah
blah.

Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!

Paul S.

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Christopher Jeris

> But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
> servo amps with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!

Oh, Paul, you know we love you.  :)

> So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
> patchable *DISTORTION* unit?

Ooh ooh.  Love the idea of "pedal" modules in general.  How about an
analogue delay line and a pitch shifter?  :)

Chris

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Seth Redmore

I vote for skipping the distortion, and keeping it as simple, clean, and quiet
as possible.  Hey, if I want good distortion, I just beat up on my '420's.
Granted, not quite the same as tube distortion, but then again, I have boxes
that do that, too.

(now, how bout that, a tube distortion module :) ).

--Seth

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Dave Bradley

> Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!
>

The sound you are not hearing is me biting my lip to resist taking a cheap
shot at g%it#r players LOL!

Dr. Evil

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by John Speth

On Tuesday, September 07, 1999 8:26 AM, Paul Schreiber [SMTP:synth1@...] wrote:
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> Mics are probably best handled by your little Mackie mixer :)
> 
> Because, you need to handle both XLR and dynamic, phantom power, blah blah
> blah.
> 
> Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!

ABSOLUTELY!  Put me down as 1 vote for guitar input, thanks.


John Speth
Object Engineering, Inc
mailto:johns@...

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> The ARP has too many parts! The Univibe has about half
> of the ARPs. The MXR phaser has fewer still! :)

But yet somehow that little MXR still sounds good.  Whatever design, a
good, err... no GREAT, phaser should be part of the MOTM plan.  :)  See
what you got started again Thomas??   Now, back to pre-amps...

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> Mics are probably best handled by your little Mackie mixer :)
> Because, you need to handle both XLR and dynamic, phantom
> power, blah blah blah.

Boo... Hiss... Come on Paul.... Can't we have just one mic input, say XLR,
balanced, low impedance.  That would cover most everything.  Phantom power
guys can handle their own power (or a spiffy phantom power jumper on the
MOTM circuit board).   Or, you could go 1/4" high impedance and force the
mic guys to use a matching transformer.  BUT, all good mics are balanced
low-Z anyhow, so ....  Of course, to keep the MOTM 1/4 input appearance, I
guess any low-Z mic input should be a stereo jack and not a real XLR.

> Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!

Yes, but life isn't fair and the guitar layers get all the great chicks. 
So.....  How about 3 inputs (like the original).  One optimized for guitar,
one for line levels, and one with a user adjustable trim (or appropriate
component change on the circuit board).  Or a switch on the 3rd pre input
for low level / high level inputs.  Am I missing someting, or would not a
guitar input and microphone input have roughly the same gain required, if a
microphone matching transformer was used to come closer to the high
impedance input of the guitar input (or the trimmable).  I know the
impedance of a guitar is higher than the high impedance side of a
microphone transformer, but aren't they close enough?  So channel three
could have two inputs, one balanced low-z and one unbalanced high-z.  (I
know, I am thinking mixers again).

And then there is that distortion issue.... Separate module?  Or maybe the
triple preamp could be two flavors:

# 1 - dual input with the distortion Paul suggested. (this is the guitar
MOTM interface) one of the inputs for guitar and the other ???

# 2 - triple input, no distrotion, two line levels and one mic level (synth
MOTM interface).

See, then we would have to buy them both.

I've rambled long enough.  I love this list and hearing what others think
is important for thier MOTM systems.  I wish more of you quiet types would
speak up.  I see you out there lurking.

And thanks again Paul for letting customers in on the design issues.  I
think that a lot of good ideas (and much controversy <grin>) have come from
the open discussion.  I am always happy to see the final product even if I
know it is not "exactly" how I would have asked for it because it has the
input of so many knowledgeable folks and Paul's good sense to separate the
good ideas from the bad.

Larry H

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: Christopher Jeris <cjeris@...>
> Ooh ooh.  Love the idea of "pedal" modules in general.  How about an
> analogue delay line and a pitch shifter?  :)
> Chris

Me too...

> From: Seth Redmore <sredmore@...>
> I vote for skipping the distortion, and keeping it as simple, clean, and
quiet
> as possible.  Hey, if I want good distortion, I just beat up on my
'420's.
> Granted, not quite the same as tube distortion, but then again, I have
boxes
> that do that, too.

> (now, how bout that, a tube distortion module :) ).

Although I just sent out a long disertaion on options, I officially agree
with Seth, simple, clean and quiet and no distortion on this module.  I
assume you mean "tube-like" distortion and were not seriously suggesting a
real tube.  Just what we need -- another "tube-vs-solid state" discussion
on another mailing list..  :)

> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>

> The sound you are not hearing is me biting my lip to resist taking a
cheap
> shot at g%it#r players LOL!
> Dr. Evil

Go ahead Doc.  We're all among friends here.  LOL

LH

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by gjalass@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:25:40 -0700, you wrote:

>From: John Speth <johns@...>
>
>On Tuesday, September 07, 1999 8:26 AM, Paul Schreiber [SMTP:synth1@...] wrote:
>> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>> 
>> Mics are probably best handled by your little Mackie mixer :)
>> 
>> Because, you need to handle both XLR and dynamic, phantom power, blah blah
>> blah.
>> 
>> Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!
>
>ABSOLUTELY!  Put me down as 1 vote for guitar input, thanks.
>
>
>John Speth
>Object Engineering, Inc
>mailto:johns@...
>

And add another vote !

I'm not playing a guitar, but they tend to appear in the studio from
time to time.

Gert

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by james holloway

hear! hear! I would like guitar input also but a mic input is far more 
important to me. I like larry's Idea of impedance matchinf transformer to 
maintain the 1/4" standard.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>Reply-To: motm@onelist.com
>To: <motm@onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:45:20 -0500
>
>From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>
> > From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> > The ARP has too many parts! The Univibe has about half
> > of the ARPs. The MXR phaser has fewer still! :)
>
>But yet somehow that little MXR still sounds good.  Whatever design, a
>good, err... no GREAT, phaser should be part of the MOTM plan.  :)  See
>what you got started again Thomas??   Now, back to pre-amps...
>
> > From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> > Mics are probably best handled by your little Mackie mixer :)
> > Because, you need to handle both XLR and dynamic, phantom
> > power, blah blah blah.
>
>Boo... Hiss... Come on Paul.... Can't we have just one mic input, say XLR,
>balanced, low impedance.  That would cover most everything.  Phantom power
>guys can handle their own power (or a spiffy phantom power jumper on the
>MOTM circuit board).   Or, you could go 1/4" high impedance and force the
>mic guys to use a matching transformer.  BUT, all good mics are balanced
>low-Z anyhow, so ....  Of course, to keep the MOTM 1/4 input appearance, I
>guess any low-Z mic input should be a stereo jack and not a real XLR.
>
> > Also, there is a large *untapped* MOTM market for guitar players!!
>
>Yes, but life isn't fair and the guitar layers get all the great chicks.
>So.....  How about 3 inputs (like the original).  One optimized for guitar,
>one for line levels, and one with a user adjustable trim (or appropriate
>component change on the circuit board).  Or a switch on the 3rd pre input
>for low level / high level inputs.  Am I missing someting, or would not a
>guitar input and microphone input have roughly the same gain required, if a
>microphone matching transformer was used to come closer to the high
>impedance input of the guitar input (or the trimmable).  I know the
>impedance of a guitar is higher than the high impedance side of a
>microphone transformer, but aren't they close enough?  So channel three
>could have two inputs, one balanced low-z and one unbalanced high-z.  (I
>know, I am thinking mixers again).
>
>And then there is that distortion issue.... Separate module?  Or maybe the
>triple preamp could be two flavors:
>
># 1 - dual input with the distortion Paul suggested. (this is the guitar
>MOTM interface) one of the inputs for guitar and the other ???
>
># 2 - triple input, no distrotion, two line levels and one mic level (synth
>MOTM interface).
>
>See, then we would have to buy them both.
>
>I've rambled long enough.  I love this list and hearing what others think
>is important for thier MOTM systems.  I wish more of you quiet types would
>speak up.  I see you out there lurking.
>
>And thanks again Paul for letting customers in on the design issues.  I
>think that a lot of good ideas (and much controversy <grin>) have come from
>the open discussion.  I am always happy to see the final product even if I
>know it is not "exactly" how I would have asked for it because it has the
>input of so many knowledgeable folks and Paul's good sense to separate the
>good ideas from the bad.
>
>Larry H
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
>programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
><a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: "james holloway" <jimh54@...>
> 
> hear! hear! I would like guitar input also but a mic input is far more 
> important to me. I like larry's Idea of impedance matchinf transformer to

> maintain the 1/4" standard.

Or that microphone low-z balanced input on a stereo jack.  All "looks" the
same.  :)  Yes, I know, yadda, yadda, yadda, special cord for the mic.
LH

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by Doug Pearson

Just my opinions on the preamp & stuff (lots of great ideas floating around!):

1) I would have no real use for a microphone preamp (already have decent
ones in the rack), but would LOVE to have a guitar preamp; I've been using
my MS-20 and EML101 extensively for processing guitar sounds for my band (a
bit live, but mostly in the studio during mixing).  I've always liked the
idea of using synths as guitar effects, and guitar effects in a
modular/patched synth setting, which brings me to ...

2) The "guitar effect module" I'd most like to see in MOTM would be a
generic BBD module that, depending on the settings, could be used for
voltage-controlled analog delay, chorus, flange or vibrato.  Some sort of
voltage-controllable distortion could be cool, too (especially being able
to switch/mix between silicon & germanium transistors, different kinds of
diodes, etc.), but I'd rather see a delay/etc. module first.

3) I think that panel-controllable waveshaping on the uVCO is a great idea!

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by David Bivins

Ah, if we're talking phasers, I can't live without my two Maestro (MP)
phasers. They're the more narrow ones with two side-mounted knobs--balls and
speed. Oh so sweet... I've considered finding a trashed one and "module-ing"
it anyway.

David.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 9:23 AM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
>
>
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> The ARP has too many parts! The Univibe has about half of the ARPs.
>
> The MXR phaser has fewer still! :)
>
> Paul S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Bradley <daveb@...>
> To: motm@onelist.com <motm@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:08 AM
> Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
>
>
> >From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
> >
> >> Univibe, univibe, univibe!!!
> >
> >Thomas, you're cheating! Trying to sneak a phasor in when he mentions
> >distortion<g>! Remember Paul mentioning a possible phasor module awhile
> back
> >that was based on the Arp Quadra design?
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> >ONElist members: don't miss out on the latest news at ONElist
> >Join our community member news update at
> ><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter5 ">Click Here</a>
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2 ">Click Here</a>
> With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-07 by David Bivins

Sorry--Boss crap alert: I absolutely LOVE my Boss HM-2 distortion pedal.
It's the only pedal I have that always sounds good. To give you context, the
other distortion pedals I own are a Boss DS-2 (eh, not so great for me) and
a Sovtek EH Big Muff Pi (too freakin' noisy).

That being said, I already have a HM-2, and I never considered a distortion
module for a high-end modular. Instead, I would welcome a module that, among
other things, allows the input to be overloaded for distortion--or am I just
saying I want a preamp (I don't know a lot about "professional"
distortion...)?

My vote is no distortion on the preamp as stated below.

David.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 11:54 PM
> To: MOTM listserv
> Subject: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp
>
>
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> Originally, I was going to do a 1U wide, triple preamp. This would have:
>
> 1 "guitar" level input
> 2 "synth/line" level inputs
>
> 3 volume pots
>
> The guitar input has high gain (like 150) and the line levels are lower
> (like 15). The
> point of both is to bring external levels up to 10V pk-pk.
>
> But several have asked for *DISTORTION!* Oh, the shame of my audiophile DC
> servo amps
> with cascode FET stages and 0.005% THD. Sob!
>
> So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
> patchable *DISTORTION*
> unit?
>
> Along this line: there are several worderful sites with full schematics of
> OLD guitar pedals. What's
> your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).
>
> Lastly : out of pocket Thursday PM til Sun PM. Off to see Doug
> Curtis. (hee
> hee).
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online today!
>      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-08 by JWBarlow@xxx.xxx

BOY OH BOY! You really started something here Paul!

In a message dated 9/6/99 10:44:32 PM, synth1@... writes:

>So, what's the feeling of a dual preamp (2 clean channels) with a seperate
>patchable *DISTORTION*
>unit?

So what Paul is suggesting is a two channel preamp and a separate distortion 
unit. 

Now many have pointed out optimizing the preamp for synth, mic, or guitar 
levels. Well now that we know that front panels are a big concern, maybe use 
the same front panel layout for different preamps optimized for each use. As 
I've mentioned before I'd prefer to have two (or more) guitar preamps 
simultaneously -- one for my guitar, and one for my ancient Valco lap steel 
which barely fits on my ARP 2600 keyboard. I'm not sure I would even need one 
synth level preamp -- a mic preamp might be a good idea for RM and other 
processing (so Larry can do the "Load your program ..." shtick when he's 
playing "Karn Evil Nine").

>OLD guitar pedals. What's
>your fave pedal, pre 1990? (no BOSS crap).

As far as distortion goes Thomas suggested:
>- Fuzz Face (hard to find germanium transistors)
>- ts-9 tube screamer (somewhat dependent on jcr4558 op amps

I've only used the Fuzz Face (a long time ago) but it is certainly one of the 
classics. For 25+ years I've been using a Foxx Tone Machine which I like 
quite a bit since it can have two settings, a basic fuzz, and an octave fuzz 
(probably a ring modulator kind of thing to get that "Hendrix" Octavia sound).

Basically I like to have a clean signal on my guitar and three (or more) 
kinds of distortion available:
1) Crunch -- a basic rhythm sound like you get from a severely overdriven 
Marshall or Fender (output transformer saturated -- can't small transformers 
be overdriven by smaller voltage levels to achieve similar sounds at lower 
levels?).
2) Lead -- a very compressed stinging sound. Really just a more intense 
version of crunch.
3) Fuzz -- a caricature of those sixties guitar sounds found on the Nuggets 
albums (when was the last time you guys heard "Psychotic Reaction"?).
3b) Octave Fuzz -- I put a foot switch in my Foxx to allow it to do this. You 
can get a great Fripp sound like this (Belew still uses a Foxx).


BTW: footswitch inputs (which could be controlled by clock pulses) and VC for 
as much as possible would REALLY make this MOTM guitar stuff special.

I'll get back with the Phasers, et al in a bit.
John B.

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-08 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: JWBarlow@...
> BOY OH BOY! You really started something here Paul!

He does that every time.  Ain't it great?  Free customer up-front product
consultation and we get great stuff.  :)

> -- a mic preamp might be a good idea for RM and other 
> processing (so Larry can do the "Load your program ..." shtick when he's 
> playing "Karn Evil Nine").

Gee John, I'm not sure if I should be flattered that you really think I
could play any ELP piece or upset about the rest of the comment. "Load your
program shtick".....  Hmmm, must be late (OK, I woke up in the middle of
the night) as you have gone completely over my head (not a far stretch).

Larry (stooge) Hendry
Who really could never be upset with another stooge

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-08 by thudson@cygnus.com

JWBarlow@... wrote:

> Basically I like to have a clean signal on my guitar and three (or more)
> kinds of distortion available:
> 1) Crunch -- a basic rhythm sound like you get from a severely overdriven
> Marshall or Fender (output transformer saturated -- can't small transformers
> be overdriven by smaller voltage levels to achieve similar sounds at lower
> levels?).
> 2) Lead -- a very compressed stinging sound. Really just a more intense
> version of crunch.
> 3) Fuzz -- a caricature of those sixties guitar sounds found on the Nuggets
> albums (when was the last time you guys heard "Psychotic Reaction"?).
> 3b) Octave Fuzz -- I put a foot switch in my Foxx to allow it to do this. You
> can get a great Fripp sound like this (Belew still uses a Foxx).

Actually, last night I realized it might be simpler to take two or four
of the most unique distortion circuits and vc pan between them, rather than
try any trickery with reconfiguring diodes. Buffer the input and send it 
to every distortion input, and then use vc to select the output. Perhaps
vactrols could be used to keep the parts count down, but most of these
fuzz circuits use very few parts. I would suggest placing devices w/
even order harmonics opposite devices w/ heavy odd order harmonics:

big muff (fuzz)           Foxx
+------------------------+ (octave fuzz)
| ^                      |
| vc1    < vc2 >         |
| v                      |
|                        |
+------------------------+
Tube Screamer            fuzz face
(crunch)                 (lead)

So now with two VCs (or a joy stick) I can smoothly select between different
sounds. Of course, the first thing I would want to use to control such
a device is quadrature LFO (another MOTM I would love), to spin around
the various sounds. Hmm, how about random out from two MOTM-100s....

Of course, if Paul is looking for simple 1u modules this could be split
up into several modules. The 2xVC select of four inputs is similar to
J.H.'s morphing programmer.
 
Thomas

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-10 by JWBarlow@xxx.xxx

Hi Thomas,

I really like your ideas (below) and agree that it could make a really good 
MOTM module. Maybe a dual sound fuzz (meaning A/B) which could have switches 
to reorder different diodes in the feedback loop and the like to reconfigure 
it for different sounds. Of course if it were to have VC parameters (and it 
needs to), it would need a VC gain control (or AGC) for the obvious reasons.

I also like your way of positioning at opposite points when comparing 
harmonic content.

More ideas please Thomas,
John B.

In a message dated 9/8/99 5:41:48 AM, thudson@... writes:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Actually, last night I realized it might be simpler to take two or four
>of the most unique distortion circuits and vc pan between them, rather
>than
>try any trickery with reconfiguring diodes. Buffer the input and send it
>
>to every distortion input, and then use vc to select the output. Perhaps
>vactrols could be used to keep the parts count down, but most of these
>fuzz circuits use very few parts. I would suggest placing devices w/
>even order harmonics opposite devices w/ heavy odd order harmonics:
>
>big muff (fuzz)           Foxx
>+------------------------+ (octave fuzz)
>| ^                      |
>| vc1    < vc2 >         |
>| v                      |
>|                        |
>+------------------------+
>Tube Screamer            fuzz face
>(crunch)                 (lead)
>
>So now with two VCs (or a joy stick) I can smoothly select between different
>sounds. Of course, the first thing I would want to use to control such
>a device is quadrature LFO (another MOTM I would love), to spin around
>the various sounds. Hmm, how about random out from two MOTM-100s....
>
>Of course, if Paul is looking for simple 1u modules this could be split
>up into several modules. The 2xVC select of four inputs is similar to
>J.H.'s morphing programmer.
>

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-10 by thudson@xxxxxx.xxx

JWBarlow@... wrote:
> 
> From: JWBarlow@...
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> I really like your ideas (below) and agree that it could make a really good
> MOTM module. 

Thanks

> I also like your way of positioning at opposite points when comparing
> harmonic content.
> 
> More ideas please Thomas,

Actually, after I wrote this I remembered there was an Electronotes article
about a wave shaper that would give a smooth transition (vc of course) from
all odd harmonics to all even harmonics. I'm quoting from memory right now,
but I believe the all-even extreme was produced by rectifying a sine and
the adding the original sine for the fundamental. The odd extreme was a
square wave. If you think about how some fuzzes affect the signal, you 
can see the poor mans version (or poor guitarists version?) of this would
be a "fuzz that approaches square" at one end, and an octave-doubling 
fuzz at the other (perhaps with the original signal mixed in).

Wish my job wasn't eating so much of my time right now. Lot's of things
I would like to breadboard.

R. Keen's site has some good discussions about guitar distortion effects
and what makes a unique sound. He suggests that prefiltering has a lot
to do with the characteristics (remember, Jimi Hendrix put the wah
before the fuzz face). I've often wondered about using identically
tuned bandpass and notch filters, with bandpass before the fuzz
and notch after. The notch would cancel any boost of the bandpass,
yet the characteristics of the distortion would still be affected.
Sweeping them w/ an LFO might be interesting.

Makes me realize that the modular synth is the ultimate "scratch pad"
for the guitar effects designer.

Thomas

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-10 by Mark Pulver

thudson@... (08:58 AM 9/10/1999) wrote:

 >Actually, after I wrote this I remembered there was an Electronotes article
 >about a wave shaper that would give a smooth transition (vc of course) from
 >all odd harmonics to all even harmonics.

When Ric Miller was building systems as "ARF" (Aural Research Facilities) 
he offered this circuit as a module. I have two of them. They're pretty 
dang cool.

He has some info online about all of his modules (most are Electronotes 
based) including schematics for most at:

   http://www.pangea.ca/~rmiller/ernie.html

I think the circuit that you're talking about is what Ric (now "Ryk") 
called the "Timber Modulator". Through an issue with Bernie Hutchins, he 
was forced to remove the schematic. But, as you say Thomas, it's an 
Electronotes circuit.



Anyway... Ryk does have some of his own designs online, including a VC Wave 
Splitter, which is also a lot of fun. :)


Mark

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-12 by Hugo Haesaert

Hi Thomas n All !

The idea of a sort of morphing between a rectified sine and square, 
is originally a Buchla idea .  The Wiard synth had a module based on 
this on their old website, complete with block diagrams and the 
mention of Buchla .  Maybe someone did a write-up of the idea for EN ?

On the new site this is only briefly touched upon in the history 
section, and is called "Tone source research prototype" .  See here :

http://www.wiard.com/History.htm

Tried this on my Nord Modular, with less than spectacular results, 
but then, there are several ways to do this, and maybe the one i 
chose was not the right one :)  Will be trying this with MOTM modules 
and some diy, one day, too .  But i won't be holding my breath until 
then :)

So much to explore and build, so little time .

Bye for now .


Keep 'em oscillating :)


Hugo (6 MOTM modules built, many more kits waiting on the shelf ;-) )
=

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by JWBarlow@xxx.xxx

In a message dated 9/10/99 7:12:17 AM, mpulver@... writes:

>thudson@... (08:58 AM 9/10/1999) wrote:
>
> >Actually, after I wrote this I remembered there was an Electronotes article
> >about a wave shaper that would give a smooth transition (vc of course)
>from
> >all odd harmonics to all even harmonics.


I played with my Serge Wave Multipliers and Waveshapers today. One of the 
Multipliers will add odd harmonics to a sine wave while another adds even 
harmonics -- similar to what Thomas is proposing. I found that adding even 
harmonics was far more successful (I got great octavia sounds and a few nice 
"Strawberry Alarm Clock" type sounds) than adding odd harmonics; way too much 
"hair" on the attack phase.  I was also able (as always) to get some great 
bizarre sounds a la Pete Cosey (re, Miles' "Agharta" and "Pangea" albums)! 
And I noticed that an important change in the sound happened when adding VC 
from the envelope follower.

Unfortunately, with so many jacks, pots and possible ways of patching, it 
presented too many options (most not really conducive to basic guitar type 
distortion). I do however think that some study of Wave Multipliers in 
conjunction with basic fuzz boxes could lead to a number of different timbre 
modulators which could serve different functions in a modular setting.

I tried the link too Ric's timbre modulators, but it failed each time. Has 
anyone else gotten through? Maybe Ric's ideas could help us too.

>When Ric Miller was building systems as "ARF" (Aural Research Facilities)
>he offered this circuit as a module. I have two of them. They're pretty
>dang cool.
>He has some info online about all of his modules (most are Electronotes
>based) including schematics for most at:
>   http://www.pangea.ca/~rmiller/ernie.html


I'm also wondering Thomas, if your list of fuzz tones (Big Muff Pi, Fuzz 
Face, Foxx and Tube Screamer) would be your wish list of distortion devices?

I'll check out the Wiard site next.
John B.

Re: Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by RSchwim295@xxx.xxx

Hello--

I've gotten no response to my post regarding the Z. Vex Fuzz Factory which is 
probably the best fuzz I've had the pleasure of messing with. Please, 
somebody hear this thing, ok? It's really fantastic. I've used many of the 
great fuzzes and this one is amazing!
.<A HREF="http://www.zvex.com">Z. Vex</A>

Thanks,

Rob

Rob Schwimmer

Re: Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by Paul Schreiber

I am gathering opinions/schematics on the MOTM-480 Effects Farm (catchy
title, huh!)

I can't spend $1500 buying all this stuff. So, if anybody *has* an effect
they like, I need to "borrow* it
for evaluation :)

I also decided to use "clean" preamps and the '480 can dirty up the works.

Running SPICE this week on the preamps. Evaluating several topologies
(opamp/discrete/JFET).

As far as a mic in: this is just too much R&D at this time. Anxious to get
on the Seq!

Paul S.

Re: Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by J. Larry Hendry

So, does this mean we are back to 3 input pre with one guitar input and two
line levels?
LH
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>

> I also decided to use "clean" preamps and the '480 can dirty up the
works.
> 
> As far as a mic in: this is just too much R&D at this time. Anxious to
get
> on the Seq!

Re: Re: Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by Paul Schreiber

10 days, max. Average of 5 days.

Paul S.
-----Original Message-----
From: RSchwim295@... <RSchwim295@...>
To: motm@onelist.com <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:58 PM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp


>From: RSchwim295@...
>
>Hello--How long would you need them for?
>
>Rob
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
>For details and to order, go to: 
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by Paul Schreiber

Yep.

Paul S.
hard-headed German

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Larry Hendry <jlarryh@...>
To: motm@onelist.com <motm@onelist.com>
Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:59 PM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Subject: Re: Re: [motm] MOTM Pre-amp


>From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
>
>So, does this mean we are back to 3 input pre with one guitar input and two
>line levels?
>LH
>
>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
>> I also decided to use "clean" preamps and the '480 can dirty up the
>works.
>>
>> As far as a mic in: this is just too much R&D at this time. Anxious to
>get
>> on the Seq!
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Enter ONElist's Friends & Family Program
>WIN $100 to Amazon.com!  Through Sept. 17.   To enter, click here
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/ff ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by thudson@cygnus.com

JWBarlow@... wrote:
>
> I'm also wondering Thomas, if your list of fuzz tones (Big Muff Pi, Fuzz
> Face, Foxx and Tube Screamer) would be your wish list of distortion devices?
>
Yes, except I've found a "swell" mod to the Foxx that Prescription Electronics
designed in to one of their devices. I plan on playing with that at some point.

I currently own:
- Big Muff: This is one of the new Sovtek models, and has much less noise than 
the originals, supposedly due to mil spec transitors. Nice scooped sound, 
great w/ lots of echo.
- Fuzz Face: This is one I built, I got the germaniums from R.G. Keen. The
classic over-the-top Hendrix sound.
- Roger Mayer Axis Fuzz: Roger Mayer design similar to Fuzz face. He manages
to get a pretty good sound using 3904/3906. 
- Roger Mayer Octavia: I'm not all that impressed with this one, I plan
on building a Tychobrae version with inductors.

Tube Screamer is on my list to build, I've got a tube of the original JCR4558s
that are supposedly so essential to the sound. This was a part
of Stevie Ray Vaughns sound.

One more layout that is interesting is the MXR Distortion+ (Opamp driving
two reversed diodes connected to ground). 

Though most of these might sound pretty bland with a static waveform as input.
I think putting an ADSR/VCA combo in *front* of the distortion might produce 
more interesting results.

Thomas

Re: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by thudson@cygnus.com

RSchwim295@... wrote:

> I've gotten no response to my post regarding the Z. Vex Fuzz Factory which is
> probably the best fuzz I've had the pleasure of messing with. Please,
> somebody hear this thing, ok? It's really fantastic. I've used many of the
> great fuzzes and this one is amazing!
> .<A HREF="http://www.zvex.com">Z. Vex</A>
> 
Actually, I've really wanted to hear one. I heard that Billy Gibbons was
so impressed with this unit that he purchased quite a few of them to give
as Christmas presents.

Can you make us some sound samples?

Thomas

RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-13 by Dave Bradley

You must be an old geezer to remember them<g>!

I actually saw them live - I think it was the first concert I ever went to.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@... 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: JWBarlow@...

> (I got great octavia sounds and 
> a few nice 
> "Strawberry Alarm Clock" type sounds)

Re: RE: MOTM Pre-amp

1999-09-14 by JWBarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 9/13/99 7:56:36 AM, daveb@... writes:

>> (I got great octavia sounds and 
>> a few nice 
>> "Strawberry Alarm Clock" type sounds) 

>You must be an old geezer to remember them<g>!

The name I wanted to use was "The Electric Prunes (with their hit "Too Much 
to Dream Last Night") but couldn't remember their name yesterday. 

>I actually saw them live - I think it was the first concert I ever went
>to.

And your calling me a geezer?!!!
JB
Hey, ain't there still room for a Joe Besser and a Curly Joe Dorita?

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.