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Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tentochi

I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.

Paul strongly believes that sockets are not need and end up causing more
problems than the solve.

On both of my (Blacet) Dark Star Choas boards, I did NOT use the sockets and
soldered everything directly to the board.

I have several other kits I am building now, I this question is still
bothering me.

I would like to hear different people's (including Paul's) opinions on this.

Thanks!
Todd

RE: [motm] Re: Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tentochi

I am not well versed in this area of sockets (yet). What type is supplied
with most kits? Can you give me a little bit more info in the difference?
Do I probably need to buy replacement sockets for kits if I decide to go the
kit route?

Thanks!
Todd

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> In practice, it's probably not such a
> bad thing, but you should NEVER use cheap sockets. If you decide to
> use them, buy the machined round pin kind, NOT the everyday Radio
> Shack flat contact kind.
>Moe

Re: Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by mate_stubb@yahoo.com

My philosophy:

No question, using sockets adds one more potential thing to go wrong:
the contacts could oxidize and cause bad connections.

Sometimes sockets might make sense, with parts you may want to remove
(RAM on a MiniWave, e.g.), or other expensive parts that may have
reliability problems. I socketed all the SSM chips on my EMu voice
boards. I would never socket inexpensive opamps - just cut them out
and replace them with new ones. On the DarkStar, I'd probably socket
the big TI chip, but nothing else.

I've never had a socket go bad. Paul takes the purist's attitude
because he's the designer<g>. In practice, it's probably not such a
bad thing, but you should NEVER use cheap sockets. If you decide to
use them, buy the machined round pin kind, NOT the everyday Radio
Shack flat contact kind.

YMMV

Moe

Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In motm@y..., "Tentochi" <tentochi@c...> wrote:
> I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.
>
> Paul strongly believes that sockets are not need and end up causing
more
> problems than the solve.
>
> On both of my (Blacet) Dark Star Choas boards, I did NOT use the
sockets and
> soldered everything directly to the board.
>
> I have several other kits I am building now, I this question is
still
> bothering me.
>
> I would like to hear different people's (including Paul's) opinions
on this.
>
> Thanks!
> Todd

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tentochi

Impressive anal-ness! I am impressed! I would have never caught Paul's
switcheroo.

--Shemp

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> (While on that subject.... Paul, I noticed that a couple of capacitors are
> different on the MOTM-110 that I just built as compared to the
> one I built a
> year ago [anal of me to notice, yeah]. I think there are two 220pf caps as
> opposed to another odd value that I can't remember off-hand. Is that
> anything that I should go back and mod to the old one, or was this a very
> minor design change...? Thanks!)

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tkacs, Ken

I am led to believe that some sockets are better than others, so if you are
inclined to use sockets to make repairing & troubleshooting easier down the
road, or for swapping ROMs or something, then at least get good quality
sockets. I'm pretty sure that the kind with the "round" holes and posts, as
opposed to those Radio Shack "flat clip / flat leads" type are superior in
design.

In a rare move, the MOTM-110 uses a socket for the central chip, and that is
the type that Paul uses.

(While on that subject.... Paul, I noticed that a couple of capacitors are
different on the MOTM-110 that I just built as compared to the one I built a
year ago [anal of me to notice, yeah]. I think there are two 220pf caps as
opposed to another odd value that I can't remember off-hand. Is that
anything that I should go back and mod to the old one, or was this a very
minor design change...? Thanks!)

RE: [motm] Re: Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tkacs, Ken

Ha! Great minds think alike! We must have been typing this simultaneously.

-----Original Message-----
From: mate_stubb@... [mailto:mate_stubb@...]
Sent: Friday, 09 March, 2001 10:29 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Re: Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

... but you should NEVER use cheap sockets. If you decide to
use them, buy the machined round pin kind, NOT the everyday Radio
Shack flat contact kind.

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tkacs, Ken

I stare blankly at schematics a lot. I keep thinking that if I stare at
them, I will someday understand them through osmosis. Heck, that's how I
learned English, right? And later music notation.

Also, maybe there's a "Fahrenheit 451" element in there that if the balloon
goes up, electronic music will survive because I can redraw a lot of
schematics from memory. ;-)

---Mr. T


-----Original Message-----
From: Tentochi [mailto:tentochi@...]
Sent: Friday, 09 March, 2001 10:31 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

Impressive anal-ness! I am impressed! I would have never caught Paul's
switcheroo.

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by The Old Crow

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Tentochi wrote:

> I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.
>
> I would like to hear different people's (including Paul's) opinions on this.

Usually I solder all parts to a board without sockets. The exceptions
where I use sockets are:

1) The part is something that must be programmed and installed later,
like an EPROM or PLD.

2) The part is something expensive, like a CEM3340 chip.

3) I'm replacing a defective part. I'll install a socket for the new
one.

4) I'm making a prototype.

I typically use turned-pin sockets for digital and analog chips alike.
Nickel-plated with usually a gold-plated inner cup. Low profile sockets.

Crow

/**/

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by John Blacet

I see the same *stuff* every time someone mentions "sockets". How much
of it is true and how much of it just *stuff* that goes on and on?

We use sockets because it improves the reliability of our modules.
Modern day sockets are well made and reliable, even the cheaper variety.
Using sockets lowers the amount of time that ICs are exposed to static
prone conditions. This is especially true with kit builders, who may not
have the sophisticated anti static facilities of industry.

The repairability of a non-socketed IC is a no brainer for anyone who
has had to remove a bad IC from a DS board; it takes about 20 times as
long and runs the risk of damaging the PCB itself.

Our warranty is essentially void if the kit builder does not use the
sockets provided. At the least, the usually very nominal repair charge
runs the risk of *tripling* in the case of an IC failure.

I cannot point to a single incident of a socket problem in the history
of Blacet Research.

Those are the *facts*. IMHO of course.
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by The Old Crow

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Tkacs, Ken wrote:

>
> I stare blankly at schematics a lot. I keep thinking that if I stare at
> them, I will someday understand them through osmosis. Heck, that's how I
> learned English, right? And later music notation.

I knew I went wrong somewhere. You see, I make the circuit first, then
go back and draw the schematic--sometimes. Amazing is the number of
devices I've made for commercial manufacture this way...

Crow

{
Former boss: Where is the schematic for the 2-zone PID controller you
designed in 1992?

Me: uhhh...schematic?
}

/**/

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by mark@indole.net

At 10:03 AM -0500 03/09/01, Tentochi wrote:
>
>I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.

That sounds like a spiritual issue :)

>Paul strongly believes that sockets are not need and end up causing more
>problems than the solve.

Paul is right. If you solder correctly, and do not damage the IC with heat
or static, non-socketed IC's are more mechanically reliable, and virtually
immune to dust and oxidation.

That being said, I've used sockets for many of the things I've made with
IC's over the last few years: a TL072 scaling amp for the Mini Moog's CV's,
a 555-based trigger to gate converter, and a PAIA Theremax.

While 555 timers and TL072 op-amps are relatively inexpensive and have less
pins than many other IC's, I decided to use IC's for several reasons:

Firstly, it's easy to install an IC backwards when using perfboard, because
there is no PCB to guide you.

Secondly, it makes the device easier to repair and troubleshoot.

Thirdly, it makes it easier to upgrade IC's. In the case of the Theremax,
the output amp was a 748 (which if you are not up on your history, is an
*ack* uncompensated 741). It was very, very, noisy. So I popped it out
and replaced it with a new op-amp from Analogue Devices (OP275??) which
made it sound much, much, better. Regardless, the Theremax is a useless
piece of crap. So this way, when I finally clean out the garage, I can get
my OP275 back without having to unsolder it.

>On both of my (Blacet) Dark Star Choas boards, I did NOT use the sockets
>and soldered everything directly to the board.

I have no idea what a Dark Star is, but if I built a Time Machine (or
whatever it is called) I would socket the SAD1024, as I would use sockets
with any rare or expensive IC's.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I have several other kits I am building now, I this question is still
>bothering me.
>
>I would like to hear different people's (including Paul's)
>opinions on this.

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by J. Larry Hendry

----- Original Message -----
From: Tentochi <tentochi@...>
I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.
----
Me too. I rarely use a socket (at Paul's urging). However, I am stilling
here looking at two unbuilt Time Machince PCBs, knowing that one of these
ICs is kind of a special or at least not common chip wondering the same to
myself, "which of these if any should I socket?" I have not socketed any of
my Blacet stuff so far.

Larry H

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

I think that a socket is likely a good idea. My soldering is
less-than-stellar, so if I have to pull out a chip, it can be like pulling a
tooth. This would be much easier to do with a socket, of course.
Especially since pulling a directly-sooldered chip involves simultaneously
heating 6+ pins w/o smudging or smearing the solder or bending the pins,
etc. Tricky.

Naturally, I wouldn't want to use a cheap socket, the same way we don't use
cheap jacks or pots. As for oxydization, I don't know. Aren't all parts at
risk to this kind of damage?

On the other hand, if you are 100% certain you're not mis-placing an IC, and
you use good quality parts all around, and your design is 100% within
component spec, then in theory, your module will stand up forever, negating
the need to pull the IC, hence negating the need for a socket. I like
run-on sentences.

--PBr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tentochi [mailto:tentochi@...]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 7:03 AM
To: MOTM Mailing List
Subject: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?


I am in a constant state of internal conflict over this question.

Paul strongly believes that sockets are not need and end up causing more
problems than the solve.

On both of my (Blacet) Dark Star Choas boards, I did NOT use the sockets and
soldered everything directly to the board.

I have several other kits I am building now, I this question is still
bothering me.

I would like to hear different people's (including Paul's) opinions on this.

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Jeffrey Pontius

> Using sockets lowers the amount of time that ICs are exposed to static
> prone conditions. This is especially true with kit builders, who may not
> have the sophisticated anti static facilities of industry.
>
Thanks all for your comments - this is a topic that I too have been
thinking about as a novice kit builder. The 'static aspect' is a good
point that I hadn't considered. I've used IC sockets several times more
from the point of view that my soldering 'skills' are still under
development and I was afraid of 'frying' the IC. Am I being too cautious
or does this seem like a reasonable concern? I realize that this
probably doesn't concern someone who is 'good' at soldering, but is this a
practical approach for novice solderers?
Jeff

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by J. Larry Hendry

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Blacet <blacet@...>
> I see the same *stuff* every time someone
> mentions "sockets". How much of it is true
> and how much of it just *stuff* that goes on and on?
---
Good question.
---
> We use sockets because it improves the reliability
> of our modules. Modern day sockets are well made
> and reliable, even the cheaper variety.
---
No doubt, parts are better than they used to be.
---
> Using sockets lowers the amount of time that ICs are
> exposed to static prone conditions. This is especially
> true with kit builders, who may not have the sophisticated
> anti static facilities of industry.
---
I never thougth about that aspect. But, I have never damaged
a chip this way using "reasonable" precautions.
---
> .... a non-socketed IC is a no brainer for anyone who
> has had to remove a bad IC from a DS board; it takes
> about 20 times as long and runs the risk of damaging
> the PCB itself.
---
Been there, done that. Ouch!
---
> Our warranty is essentially void if the kit builder does not
> use the sockets provided. At the least, the usually very
> nominal repair charge runs the risk of *tripling* in the case
> of an IC failure.
---
Ouch. I didn't know that. That in itself I suppose is reason enough
to use all the sockets when I build my two Time Machines. But,
it does leave me with one more question.

I did purchase some of those reasonably-nice, machined-socket, gold-contact
IC sockets (about 40 cents, I think) for the purpose of prototyping. I must
certainly agree with Crow that sockets are essential for this work. So, I
was
toying with the idea of using them when I did socket stuff on my Blacet
modules.
However......
---
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I cannot point to a single incident of a socket problem in the history
> of Blacet Research.
---
That's a lot of history to argue with. So, I wonder.... I would assume
that you
mention of warranty would not care which IC socket was used.

Thanks for your comments John.

Larry Hendry

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Jeffrey Pontius

Larry,
> ----
> I am intentionally over caution when soldering chips
> directly to the PCB. Maybe more than I need to be. I
> have never fail one soldering it in (well we won't mention
> that time I stupidly soldered them in backwards).

I've not known an IC that I've soldered to fail (but this is with 6 mo.
since my first kit assembly - not much time), but I'm still concerned
from the point of view that I may have damaged it slightly and it does not
immediately fail, but will in the future.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> But, I always solder the two corner pins and let the chip
> cool wheil I go to 2 corner pins as I insert the next chip until
> I have them ALL on the PCB. Then I go back and solder two
> more pins on each one, rotating through so each chip gets
> some "heat rest" as I make my rounds. I do this until I have all
> pins soldered.
>
This is nice to know since this is the approach that I have also taken
except that I solder one pin on each IC in the sequence of IC's. In my
semi-paranoid state I also make sure that the IC is not 'hot' before I
solder each one. Maybe overly cautious, but I suppose it is 'peace of
mind' I'm after. The best instruction in Paul's kit instructions is the
one that assembling is not a time race, but a matter of quality (or
something like that). May be I overdo it, but that phrase is always in
the back of my mind when I am assembling.

Interesting and useful topic today!
Jeff

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by J. Larry Hendry

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeffrey Pontius <jpont@...>
Am I being too cautious or does this seem like a
reasonable concern? I realize that this probably
doesn't concern someone who is 'good' at soldering,
but is this a practical approach for novice solderers?
----
I am intentionally over caution when soldering chips
directly to the PCB. Maybe more than I need to be. I
have never fail one soldering it in (well we won't mention
that time I stupidly soldered them in backwards).

But, I always solder the two corner pins and let the chip
cool wheil I go to 2 corner pins as I insert the next chip until
I have them ALL on the PCB. Then I go back and solder two
more pins on each one, rotating through so each chip gets
some "heat rest" as I make my rounds. I do this until I have all
pins soldered.

Now, I do not claim this to be "the correct way" or any other such
nonsense. However, it is how I do it and it has served me well for
some period of time (age not being disclosed). :)
Larry

RE: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by Tkacs, Ken

Exactly what I do. The iron doesn't sit on any pin of a chip for more than
two seconds, and then I give that chip 20 seconds to cool while I do
something else.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Larry Hendry [mailto:jlarryh@...]
Sent: Friday, 09 March, 2001 1:35 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?


But, I always solder the two corner pins and let the chip
cool wheil I go to 2 corner pins as I insert the next chip until
I have them ALL on the PCB. Then I go back and solder two
more pins on each one, rotating through so each chip gets
some "heat rest" as I make my rounds. I do this until I have all
pins soldered.

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-09 by John Blacet

There are probably good reasons to "skip" around when you are hand
soldering. For one thing, you can get everything flat on the board by
soldering one pin and then checking. For another, you avoid disturbing
the solder joint on say a resistor, by soldering all the south (or
whatever) sides first, then going back and finishing up.

I'm not so sure about the heat thing as you have to consider the *whole*
board going through a wave soldering machine. I don't think a reasonably
competent guy with a soldering iron can manage that level of thermic
abuse!

___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

Re: [motm] Sockets vs. soldering ICs directly to PCB?

2001-03-10 by imorpheusl@aol.com

from my experience, it's a hell of a lot easier to use sockets on pc boards
if you have to remove ICs frequently (while making a circuit, for example).
As far as taking ICs out of a pc board, it's easier with a socket, but using
a decent desoldering pump definetly helps. They're between $6-8 and a very
good investment. When it comes to the technical differences between soldering
an IC to a board or socketing it I have nooooo idea :P

-Chaz