MOTM

At 9:03 PM -0600 03/02/01, Microtonal wrote:
>
>A tempting selection of modules if you put together Doepfer, Analogue
>Solutions and Analogue Systems, but all built using those darned 1/8"
>jacks.

I must have missed Analogue Systems.  Do all of those manufacturers use the
same mounting specifications??  Not only do I not like 1/8" jacks because I
am planning on using these modules with other gear more than with each
other, but you can't buy decent 1/8" cords.  Afaik, Neutrik doesn't even
make 1/8" plugs -- so much for strain relief.

>Paul passed my pop quiz on jack grounding and future module feature sets
>with flying colors.  I prefer the kit form.  The modules are easy to put
>together and the entire process of soldering and assembling is relaxing
>IMHO.  Remember that kits and other similar format modules are available
>from Oakley, Blacet and Encore not to mention the Larry specials.

Afaik, the only Encore module is the UEG, which seems like it is
specifically made for MOTM.  I'm guessing that Paul didn't want to offer
anything digital in kit form.

The Blacet stuff has 1/8" jacks and is a different size.

I'm vaguely aware of Oakley -- British guy, sold a PCB for a Moog filter.
I'll do a web search.  What are the Larry specials??

>> I am also looking to offset and invert envelopes and LFO's. 
>> For example, I would like to take a bipolar LFO (that goes from -5V to
>> +5V) and make it go from 0V to 5V.  I would also like to take envelopes
>> and make them go the other way.   Is there any part of the motm system
>> that can do this??
>
>I have to admit I bought a Synthesizers.com Signal Processor module to do
>this.  Nothing from MOTM yet.

I saw that on their flashy website.  Too bad their webmaster isn't an EE,
or they'd be like Buchla :)  It's only $70, and it has 1/4" jacks.  Does it
fit in a motm system??  Can it use the same PS??   Afaik, Moog modules were
+10/-10 not +15/-15.

>> 1)    910 mult
>> 2-3)  Encore UEG
>> 4-5)  820 Lag Processor
>> 6)    800 EG
>> 7-8)  320 VC LFO
>> 9-10) 410 Triple Resonant Filter
>>
>> How does that sound??  Is there anything that I might have overlooked??
>
>This will give you some good modulation sources and for that I'd say the
>UEG, 820 Lag and 320 VC LFO are virtually required.  Overall this seems
>like a good setup for a 5U modulation and processing system.

Thanx :)  I'm trying to put as much forethought as I can into this.  As I
can only fit five or six modules, I have to pick each module _very_
carefully.  As it seems now, I might have to lose a module in order to
process voltages.  Maybe I'll have to lose the 910 and build a few mult
cables.

At 11:48 PM -0500 03/02/01, jwbarlow@... wrote:
>
>>However, a dedicated motm envelope follower is in development.  Does
>>anyone know how big (units wide) it will be when it comes out??
>
>Just guessing but I'd think 2U,

Why is everything so @#$%&* big??  The Encore folks were able to fit 15
knobs, four switches, and a button within 2U.  Space equals cost.

>but you will also need the (soon to be released) MOTM preamp

Why would I need a preamp??

>which I'd also think would be 2U.

*head hits desk*

rfg57uy8njijn

A pre-amp is 2U??  These modules are 5U high, 2U of motm equals one entire
19" rackspace.

Since the PCB's are at right angles to panels, I have to ask why do modules
with only three knobs like the 320 VC LFO take 2U of space??  If they were
more space efficient, people could buy more modules.

>>I also checked out the Encore UEG.  It seems very versatile and
>>specifically designed for the motm system.  Unfortunately, it doesn't come
>>in kit form.  Can it be clocked (step-gated) at audio rates??
>
>I'm pretty sure it can -- I need to get one of these!

I'm not going to assume it can.  The manual says it can only go as high as
60Hz when free-running as an LFO.

>> I would also like to take envelopes and make them go the
>>other way.   Is there any part of the motm system that can do this??
>
>Go the other way? The MOTM 800 has a negative going output (0 to - 5V)
>>which mirrors the (normal) positive going output.

Yes, it does, but I meant envelopes from other sources, such as the Lag
Processor or UEG.

>It sounds like you have a very good idea what your needs are, so this
>would be a good first rack for what you describe. I'd recommend any of
>the other filters,

I like the sound of the SEM filter :)

>of course the RM, VCO (even if only for a modulation
>source),

The VC LFO can go up to 2800Hz, which is around an F7 -- a rather high note.

>the 101 S/H Noise with Vibrato, and the oft overlooked 700 VC
>Router, and soon to be released Dual (multimode) VCA.

What's a multimode VCA??  Isn't the 110 a dual VCA??

>I say a first rack because if you start into this you'll find yourself
>hooked and need to get more.

I sure hope not.  Frankly, I don't have the room.


Thank you very much for your responses.

> I must have missed Analogue Systems.  Do all of those manufacturers use
the
> same mounting specifications??  Not only do I not like 1/8" jacks because
I
> am planning on using these modules with other gear more than with each
> other, but you can't buy decent 1/8" cords.  Afaik, Neutrik doesn't even
> make 1/8" plugs -- so much for strain relief.
>
They use similar mounting specifications but I believe the power supply
specs might be slightly different.  I'd be less worried about the durability
of 1/8" cords than 1/8" jacks.  Cords can be easily replaced, jacks cannot.

> Afaik, the only Encore module is the UEG, which seems like it is
> specifically made for MOTM.  I'm guessing that Paul didn't want to offer
> anything digital in kit form.
>
Not really true, since the forthcoming MOTM VC Pulse Divider is
microprocessor based.  Some of the current modules have logic gates in them,
so consider them analog/digital hybrids.

> The Blacet stuff has 1/8" jacks and is a different size.
>
Larry and Moe have offered some MOTM style panels for Blacet modules.  Check
the archives.  You just missed the latest batch.

> I'm vaguely aware of Oakley -- British guy, sold a PCB for a Moog filter.
> I'll do a web search.  What are the Larry specials??
>
Look here:  http://24.12.85.234/larry/ .  MOTM style panels for Blacet,
Oakley and other modules, plus Larry's voltage switching modules.

> >I have to admit I bought a Synthesizers.com Signal Processor module to do
> >this.  Nothing from MOTM yet.
>
> I saw that on their flashy website.  Too bad their webmaster isn't an EE,
> or they'd be like Buchla :)  It's only $70, and it has 1/4" jacks.  Does
it
> fit in a motm system??  Can it use the same PS??   Afaik, Moog modules
were
> +10/-10 not +15/-15.
>
It could use the same power supply with a cable adapter, but the panel width
is different and difficult to adapt to MOTM.  It's not really worth it
unless you have a number of .com panels.

John Loffink
microtonal@...

In a message dated 3/3/2001 10:34:25 AM, mark@... writes:

>At 11:48 PM -0500 03/02/01, jwbarlow@... wrote:
>>
>>>However, a dedicated motm envelope follower is in development.  Does
>>>anyone know how big (units wide) it will be when it comes out??
>>
>>Just guessing but I'd think 2U,
>
>Why is everything so @#$%&* big??  The Encore folks were able to fit 15
>knobs, four switches, and a button within 2U.  Space equals cost.


My original preference (when MOTM was just a gleam in Paul's eye) was to go 
much more dense with like 0.5" knobs -- very much like Serge. In retrospect 
I'm glad he didn't. It does take up more space, but it is also much easier to 
use, and several people on this list (not me) seem to find the Serge format 
too small so that larger format was apparently a popular choice.

I think the more prosaic reason is that the choice to have all the jacks at 
the bottom of the module (8 maximum, OK maybe 9) and the first four pots 
being PCB mounted were significant determining factors. As far as Encore 
using the smaller knobs, I can't respond -- it looks like a great module, 
though! This knob size debate comes up every time a sequencer rumor blows 
through, but I think most people on this list are very happy with the size of 
the modules, the way they are laid out, and the size of the knobs.


>>but you will also need the (soon to be released) MOTM preamp
>
>Why would I need a preamp??


I shouldn't have been so presumptuous, I don't know what you're doing with 
this stuff. However, I can't see any use for an envelope follower within a 
synthesizer (i.e., if you were to run a VCA into an EF, you'd only get back 
the CV for the VCA -- usually an EG -- am I wrong about this guys?). More 
typically (always in my case), one is bringing some other instrument into the 
synth and using the EF to model that instrument's envelope. This instrument 
will almost always have the wrong level of signal to match the MOTM (or any 
modular -- maybe the Minimoog signal output is an exception, but I doubt it). 
So if you want to use an EF to control a 420 for some great Sly and the 
Family Stone funkified filter effects on a bass or guitar, you'll need a 
preamp, same if you want to run a vocal, or trumpet mic (for that early 70's 
Miles sound), same if you are running a standard synth output (like a Juno 6) 
into the MOTM or any other modular. 

Note: the 410 (and maybe the 420 and 440, I can't remember) can be built to 
accept a lower level of signal so people don't have to buy a preamp if they 
are only using external instruments. Of course, that would be another problem 
if one wanted to use it in a modular context after this mod.

>>which I'd also think would be 2U.
>
>*head hits desk*


Again, it's just a guess. I believe the MOTM preamp will have two synth 
inputs, and a single mic/guitar input too.

>rfg57uy8njijn

Rhymes with BLOOG!

>A pre-amp is 2U??  These modules are 5U high, 2U of motm equals one entire
>19" rackspace.
>
>Since the PCB's are at right angles to panels, I have to ask why do modules
>with only three knobs like the 320 VC LFO take 2U of space??  If they were
>more space efficient, people could buy more modules.

This is to a great part determined by the number of outputs on the bottom of 
the 320 module -- I for one would not want to give up all the features of 
such an interesting module as the 320 to use a little less panel space. Most 
of us have given in to the idea of building a large modular system. My 
original idea was to make one rack for interesting guitar effects, and one 
rack for a few modules to compliment my other modular stuff -- I gave up on 
that long ago and the MOTM cabinet will be what most of my modular building 
efforts are dedicated from now on.


>>> I would also like to take envelopes and make them go the
>>>other way.   Is there any part of the motm system that can do this??
>>
>>Go the other way? The MOTM 800 has a negative going output (0 to - 5V)
>>>which mirrors the (normal) positive going output.
>
>Yes, it does, but I meant envelopes from other sources, such as the Lag
>Processor or UEG.

Note: the 420 and 440 VCFs all have reversing attenuators on a frequency 
control input to allow these VCFs to sweep down with a positive going 
envelope.


>The VC LFO can go up to 2800Hz, which is around an F7 -- a rather high
>note.


I don't think it tracks very well as a pitched source (especially compared to 
the 300).

>>the 101 S/H Noise with Vibrato, and the oft overlooked 700 VC
>>Router, and soon to be released Dual (multimode) VCA.
>
>What's a multimode VCA??  Isn't the 110 a dual VCA??


The 110 is a one channel VCA and an independent RM -- it is soon to be 
extinct as well.
The dual VCA I believe will be able to be configured as two independent VCAs, 
a single input stereo VC panning VCA, or a dual input single output VC cross 
fading VCA -- I'm really looking forward to this one!

>>I say a first rack because if you start into this you'll find yourself
>>hooked and need to get more.
>
>I sure hope not.  Frankly, I don't have the room.

I didn't have the room either, now I'm finding the room!
JB

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mark@...>
> What are the Larry specials??
---
Nothing really that is really designed for the things you want to do.
---
Re: synth.com
> Does it fit in a motm system??  Can it use the same PS?? 
--
Some of the synth.com stuff runs on +/- 15 VDC and will work with
a MOTM supply if you are willing to make a custom power cable (they 
use different connectors).  However some also require +5 VDC which
is not supplied by the MOTM PS.

Physical size is almost exactly the same height, but 1U are slighty wider.
they won't fit on MOTM rack rails.  Mounting holes are in different spots
You could make one fit it you have good tools and mechanical skills.  It
woudl involve significant mechanical re-engineering of the module.
--
> I'm trying to put as much forethought as I can into this.  As I
> can only fit five or six modules, I have to pick each module
> _very_ carefully.  As it seems now, I might have to lose a
> module in order to process voltages.  Maybe I'll have to
>  lose the 910 and build a few mult cables.
--
I think you have a great start with the selection you have.  I agree
100% that you could lose the 910 and build mults into the space
that is available in both the 820 and 320.  All that space behind
that blank panels space is open.  You could get a 4 or 6 x mult
on the 820 and a pair of 4x mults on the 320.
--
> Why is everything so @#$%&* big??  The Encore folks were 
> able to fit 15 knobs, four switches, and a button within 2U.
--
Yes, but there are a lot of compromises to do so.  I love my UEG,
but I do not care for the smaller knobs and format.  Still it is
a reasonable compromise for this module.  
--
> Since the PCB's are at right angles to panels, I have to 
> ask why do modules with only three knobs like the 320
> VC LFO take 2U of space??  If they were more space
> efficient, people could buy more modules.
--
Well, space efficiency is not the primary reason most people
buy MOTM.  However, if you look at the 320, you will realize
you simply cannot fit all those jacks and 3 knobs into a 1U
size without giving up something.  Most people prefer features
for the extra size.  Once you have 3 knobs on 1U, 6 jacks is the
most you can fit below it.  And, only 5 will fit if you adhear to the
standard metal mounting bracket that Paul uses now.

Larry Hendry

> > Why is everything so @#$%&* big??  

Play and patch Doepfer and you'll see the light<g>.

The MOTM Envelope follower will be 2U. The triple preamp was 
announced to be 1U. This is a large format system, as others have 
pointed out. Try it, you'll like it! Forcing modules down to 1U for 
the sake of compactness is a false economy - you end up leaving out 
things like built-in input mixers, inverted outputs, and initial bias 
controls. You then have even more need for external utility modules 
to do mixing, inverting, and biasing. In any kind of reasonably sized 
system, it works out to about the same size in the end.

Some of us have built utility modules and put them behind MOTM panels 
to fill the gaps in our systems. It's no big deal to buy a blank 
panel and DIY protoboard from Paul, to build any number of simple 
opamp circuits for these kind of functions.

Moe

Dave's Hot Rod MOTM Shop
http://www.users.qwest.net/~daveb2

--- In motm@y..., mark@i... wrote:
> At 9:03 PM -0600 03/02/01, Microtonal wrote:
> Why is everything so @#$%&* big??  The Encore folks were able to 
> fit 15 knobs, four switches, and a button within 2U.  Space equals
> cost.
> 
> 
> A pre-amp is 2U??  These modules are 5U high, 2U of motm equals one 
> entire 19" rackspace. Since the PCB's are at right angles to panels, 
> I have to ask why do  modules with only three knobs like the 320 VC 
> LFO take 2U of space??  If they were more space efficient, people 
> could buy more modules.
> 

I hear ya.  For folks wanting to stuff a 19" enclosure this can be a 
problem.  But if you want to build a modular synth, you may not be as 
concerned about the rather cramped 19" width.  Many folker here are 
building rather nice cases that are much wider, and can house a great 
many modules.

For many of us, we intend to build monster truck sized cases to 
contain the vast fleet of modules we have or intend to build.  With 
Paul and possibly some others set to create some new stuff in the next 
12 months, the population of many of the modulars here will be 
growing.  That is a good point / bad point about this style of 
modular.... Ya just keep wanting to add more!

From a historical standpoint, the main modular cab was usually about 
as wide as your control keyboard.  Wing cabs were about half as wide.
I personally have an old Oberheim Xk controler that needs some repair 
that will be my dedicated control keyboard for the thing I am 
building.... so about 6 octaves wide for the main cab.  Probably 
welded metal with a slight Gieger influence... 8-)

So I think that most of the folks here are not as worried about the 
width or height as they are about the accessability and the ergonomics 
of the design.  In that regards, MOTM takes full advantage of a larger 
form factor.  I know I prefer it over the smaller types that you can 
buy.

But yeah, they are big... But for us American types maybe it is just 
par for the course.

<Wider is better>

Bruce