MOTM

Mark writes:
>>Although what you find "interesting" is purely subjective, I do not
believe this limitation leads to less interesting sounds.  That is up
to the creativity of the producer.  Apparently, Carlos, Eno, Rich,
and all these other bums have somehow managed to scrape by without this
advanced filter bank module.<<

They weren't doing things that required advanced filtering.  When Carlos
needed complex harmonic structures and realism in timbres he/she went to
digital additive synthesis.  And  I'm saying that all the basic modules
already exist dozens of times over from every modular manufacturer,
releasing yet another VCO isn't going to add anything new to what people can
do.  A one of a kind filter bank would.  Also subtractive synthesis requires
filtering, and yet in 40 years nobody has created a filter bank to do that
with any precision.

>>I remembered you said you used velocity, which means you used MIDI.
If you used MIDI, then whatever you were controlling could be
implemented in a computer.<<

Yes, but remember all that stuff about user interface, patchability, not
having to use up another computer to use as a module.  You know, all the
things people hate about using computers in place of real hardware.

>>So then please explain this interface that accomplishes what you want
with a reasonable amount of knobs.  If your controller is MIDI, and
this imagined module is CV, then that would make it less "patchable",
imho.<<

The module is a filter bank, it has nothing to do with MIDI.  How did MIDI
get involved?  It's primarily audio in/out like any other filter bank.  It
however could have a CV into it to shift or sweep the filter bank.

>>So far in this thread, I've heard about a filter bank, with a large
number of bands, with several controls for each band, as well as a
number of global settings, resulting in a massive number of
parameters.<<

So far you're making up the "several controls for each band".  Each band
would have just a level slider like a graphic EQ.  There would be some other
global controls like band width, shift, capture formant, store patch, etc.
There are currently more controls to set on a standard 31 band stereo EQ
that are available from 100 different companies.  I don't see the problem.

>>Take a look at the most popular MOTM module.  It's an envelope
generator with four knobs and four jacks.  It is very limited.  It
only does one thing.  Yet it it does this one thing very well.  I
don't have to scroll through a tiny LCD window to find "Attack", then
hit another button to change its value, then hit another button to
save my changes.<<

You're a very hard person to talk to.  Every paragraph you keep redefining
this imaginary filter bank into something different.  Remember, the reason
for it is to have one control per function and ease of use like all analog
modules.  Now your talking about scrolling through menus.  One of the points
of a dedicated hardware filter bank is to avoid scrolling through menus like
on the K5000.  Trying to program its formant filter bank is a time consuming
tedious exercise.

>>You don't seem to have a design for a module, so much as a wish list
without any idea how to implement it.<<

Actually I've figured out how many bands are needed, the space it could fit
into and most of the functions.  I've been stating some of these but you're
not listening.

>>How am I contradicting myself??  I can play a few instruments, and I
can make "musical instrument type sounds" with my modular, but I'm
yet to put my mouth on it or hit it with sticks.  However, I can
program a sequencer to control synths to produce sounds similar to
instruments I couldn't play myself.  Given the example you posted,
how well can you play a real violin??<<

It's not how well a person can play another instrument, it's whether they
are using their synths for musical / melodic applications.  I don't expect
Mr. techno to want an advanced filter bank.

>>No it doesn't.  Just like Shakespeare or Verdi used a pen and paper,
I can write directly into a sequencer.  I don't have to play anything.<<

UHG.  Of course you don't have to, but if you're into expressive instrument
performances, then you'll get it into the sequencer by actually playing.
People didn't hear Shakespeare of Verdi perform, others did that.  Boy, is
this conversation getting ridiculous.

>>While you seem to have a limited scope or lack of appreciation of
what has been accomplished using computers and sequencers, you are
still missing my point.  Regardless of genre, how well someone can
write music has very little with how well they can play music.<<

You're introducing new points I'm not talking about.  Now you're talking
about how well people write music.  Again, where is that now coming from?
I'm talking about what people are using their synths for and whether it's
gonig to be the instrument that's actually being heard, played or performed
on.

>>It simply does not follow, if people are arguing with you that something
isn't needed, then people are not using modulars to make music.<<

Boy you twist everything I say into something completely different.  I'm
saying if people aren't using their synths for music they probably won't be
interested in a filter bank that's primarily used for melodic instrument
type sounds.  Not that if a person doesn't need the filter bank they aren't
making music.  Geez.  "All cars are vehicles but not all vehicles are cars".

>>Nor is your finding bugs in the synths you bought any sort evidence-- much
less proof -- of how people use modulars.<<

It's very good evidence as to how they're using them.  They're not going
much beyond rather basic patching.  If they were, they'd start encountering
all the problems.  If people aren't using their current filters or filter
banks in any sophisticated way, there is no reason to beleive they'll all of
a sudden want something that requires even from them.

>>Nevermind that real hardware modulars rarely have anything that could be
described as a "bug".<<

The same kinds of people are buying real hardware as software.  And I
encountered a problem in the ADSR the first day I used my motm.  The fact
that it didn't cause problems for other people and went unnoticed told me at
the time a lot about how people were or weren't using their modulars.  And
we're talking just basic playing on the keyboard for this one.

>>One of the great things about a hardware modular, like
MOTM, is its reliability in the face of extreme creativity.  It can
be patched up in all sorts of ways its designers never anticipated
and it will never freeze, crash, or malfunction in any way.<<

That's right, and yet you earlier said a filter bank could just be done on
the computer, the very thing I'm trying to avoid.

>>That a product does not yet exist does not mean that it does not have a
potential market.<<

Based on the failure of past filter bank products, the lack of people even
using alternate current sources to get the job done, and even you're arguing
against such a thing I think shows the market to be almost non existant.
Like I said before, even if some were sold, they'd probably not be used to
much potential.

>>If you look at the modules produced by Synthesis Technology, Modcan, etc.
you will notice that there are more audio filters than any other type of
module.  People like filters.<<

People like or are obsessed with lowpass filters, but that has nothing to do
with a filter bank, which as you know even the motm filter bank was
canceled.

>>I have an Emu Ultra Proteus.  It has the "Z-Plane" filters of the
Morpheus. I have an Emu Ultra Proteus. I bought it new in 1995, and I've
barely used it since.  Why??  While it is very powerful on the inside, its
programming interface is atrocious. <<

And my Emu sampler also has the Z-Plane filters and I too never use it.
Same reason.  And yet you argue against a dedicated hardware module with all
the controls right infront of you.

>>In order for a filter module to be "way beyond what's already there"
it needs a way to control it that is at least comparable to what's
already there.  If the user has to scroll through a tiny window to
select each band, then adjust each parameter, then select which
parameters the CV inputs might control, then that isn't beyond
anything.<<

Ah, yeah.  I'm still wondering how my discription of it in my last post of
it looking like a graphic EQ and having a easy to use interface ever led to
any conclusion about scrolling through menus.

-Elhardt