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Is it a real polysynth?

Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Jason Adkins

I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real  
polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the  
one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in  
underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I  
was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800  
than an FM synth.

Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Eanna Butler

What makes folk say it's not a poly synth? Because the voices share the same filter, is it?
It's not multitimbral, yeah. Surely folk aren't mixing the two up?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jason Adkins <jason_ralf808@...> wrote:

I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real
polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I
was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
than an FM synth.




--
EBu

Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Daniel Forró

Probably because all voices share one filter, and because saw wave is  
not real saw wave here, but only its approximation from the mix of  
four square waves. This all makes it sound "cheap" and thin even in  
the comparison with Korg Polysix or Poly 61, and it can't be compared  
with the other synths of those times with more typical  "analog" sound  
- Roland Juno 60, Juno 106, JX3P, later JX8P, JX10, MKS70...

This doesn't mean at all it's a bad synth. It has it's own character  
and identity. But if I should decide if P800 or DX7, second one is a  
winner :-) The only problem with desert island is the missing electric  
power... so ukulele or recorder would be better.

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 22 Aug, 2013, at 7:49 PM, Jason Adkins wrote:

> I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real
> polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
> one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
> underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I
> was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
> than an FM synth.

Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Jason Adkins

Yeah,Eanna I guess the reason is what you say I do know the difference,I wish I had the MKII version with the DDL instead of the EX-800 even though it is fantastic,if I want multitimbral I'd have a Korg Wavestation on the desert island,best sampled synth of all time and very sci-fi.

On 22 Aug 2013, at 11:57, Eanna Butler wrote:


What makes folk say it's not a poly synth? Because the voices share the same filter, is it?
It's not multitimbral, yeah. Surely folk aren't mixing the two up?


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jason Adkins <jason_ralf808@...> wrote:

I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real
polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I
was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
than an FM synth.




--
EBu


Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Jason Adkins

The Poly800 does not sound cheap,ok the Poly 61 sounds slightly  
better ,I know I used to own one but it didn't sound that much  
better,even retro fitted with midi the Poly61 wasn't exactly a classic.
The Juno106 is a classic but very expensive,have you got £600 handy  
for a shitty one?
I wouldn't go near a Juno 60 unless it had been retrofitted with midi  
and serviced,
The JX8P is a classic too,I have probably said this before but I used  
to have a limited edition version in very dark grey almost black which  
stupidly I sold for £150 It had no names on the preset buttons but a  
magnetic strip containing the preset names you could stick to the top  
panel.I bid £400 for a normal one a few months back but got outbid.

There is a Honda generator that will run on coconut oil on a desert  
island ;)

http://youtu.be/SA_FLKHPR88

;)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 22 Aug 2013, at 12:15, Daniel Forró wrote:

>
> Probably because all voices share one filter, and because saw wave is
> not real saw wave here, but only its approximation from the mix of
> four square waves. This all makes it sound "cheap" and thin even in
> the comparison with Korg Polysix or Poly 61, and it can't be compared
> with the other synths of those times with more typical "analog" sound
> - Roland Juno 60, Juno 106, JX3P, later JX8P, JX10, MKS70...
>
> This doesn't mean at all it's a bad synth. It has it's own character
> and identity. But if I should decide if P800 or DX7, second one is a
> winner :-) The only problem with desert island is the missing electric
> power... so ukulele or recorder would be better.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On 22 Aug, 2013, at 7:49 PM, Jason Adkins wrote:
>
> > I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a  
> real
> > polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
> > one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
> > underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less  
> too,If I
> > was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
> > than an FM synth.
>
>
> 
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Re: Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by 7yash

A single filter => it's a paraphonic synth.

A normal polyphonic synth would have a filter for each voice, e.g. the JX-8P, which can sound massive, percussive, has fantastic strings,

e.g. 2. the DW-8000 which has 8 of the same filter in the Poly-800.

Yash

--- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Jason Adkins <jason_ralf808@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real  
> polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the  
> one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in  
> underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I  
> was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800  
> than an FM synth.

Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Michael Hawkins

In my humble opinion, the only thing that really limits the Poly-800 are the oscillators. The fact that they are all stuck on the same master clock, there's no pwm, the detuning of DCO1 to DCO2 is awful; all that adds up to a significant loss of harmonic variation. When I listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT_1k9XlBpw I hear what the Poly-800 misses. The square wave lead is classic Poly-800 but the sound effect percussive blips with the amazing PWM simply cannot be created on a Poly-800.

I don't have the time but if I did, I would create a brand new bank of oscillators with independent clocks, which would allow independent detuning, independent pwm. The square and quasi saw waves don't bother me that much because you have enough control and the filter rocks(!). But the fact that four oscillators are all stuck on the same clock removes an enormous amount of harmonic richness from the sounds that the Poly-800 produces. If the clocks were independent (even if they were out of phase slightly) the harmonics would be significantly richer. Alas, the MSM5232 has two clock inputs and all four voices in both bank DCO1 and DCO2 are rock solid clocked to those two masters. So when you play two A440's you get two A440's that are in perfect phase with each other (because both signals are being directly out of the same TG ROM lookup).

The single filter is a limitation but after playing with the EX-8000 for awhile (which has 8 NJM filter chips instead of Poly's one) I realized that the way in which I play music tends to be either chords (in which case a single filter is fine) or fast individual notes (arpeggiator like) which also means that the individual filter is not *much* of a problem. If I played alot of doubles, triplets or quads then I would agree that an individual filter per osc' would make a difference. But electronic music of the kind I listen to and play doesn't use them much. So I use a different synth when I need them.

I imagine that if we were able to produce a killer oscillator board for $100 bucks or less then I'd have a market for it. So if I could find a really cheap way to create a tone generator with 8 independent oscillators so that we could drop it into the Poly I would consider doing it. But I just haven't any found any tone generator cheap enough that could do all of the above.

People send me example this or that chips but once you try to put them together into an eight voice solution, it gets expensive. I am more than happy to hear from any of you that might think it can be done.

Hang on, haven't we had this discussion before?

Mike


Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Jason Adkins
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Is it a real polysynth?

The Poly800 does not sound cheap,ok the Poly 61 sounds slightly
better ,I know I used to own one but it didn't sound that much
better,even retro fitted with midi the Poly61 wasn't exactly a classic.
The Juno106 is a classic but very expensive,have you got £600 handy ;
for a shitty one?
I wouldn't go near a Juno 60 unless it had been retrofitted with midi
and serviced,
The JX8P is a classic too,I have probably said this before but I used
to have a limited edition version in very dark grey almost black which
stupidly I sold for £150 It had no names on the preset buttons but a
magnetic strip containing the preset names you could stick to the top
panel.I bid £400 for a normal one a few months back but got outbid.

There is a Honda generator that will run on coconut oil on a desert
island ;)

http://youtu.be/SA_FLKHPR88

;)



On 22 Aug 2013, at 12:15, Daniel Forró wrote:

>
> Probably because all voices share one filter, and because saw wave is
> not real saw wave here, but only its approximation from the mix of
> four square waves. This all makes it sound "cheap" and thin even in
> the comparison with Korg Polysix or Poly 61, and it can't be compared
> with the other synths of those times with more typical "analog" sound
> - Roland Juno 60, Juno 106, JX3P, later JX8P, JX10, MKS70...
>
> This doesn't mean at all it's a bad synth. It has it's own character
> and identity. But if I should decide if P800 or DX7, second one is a
> winner :-) The only problem with desert island is the missing electric
> power... so ukulele or recorder would be better.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On 22 Aug, 2013, at 7:49 PM, Jason Adkins wrote:
>
> > I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a
> real
> > polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
> > one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
> > underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less
> too,If I
> > was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
> > than an FM synth.
>
>
>
>



------------------------------------

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Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Jason Adkins

The JX8P is superb, the strings on this are some of the best I have ever heard,totally underrated machine, think a lot of the reason why the strings are so good is probably because of the chorus unit but it sounds great even without it turned on.
The only problem with the JX8P is its slow envelope response,i.e. Attack, which meant fart-arseing around in Cubase to get it in time but it
also means on percussive sounds like bass etc you can get a great lazy bass. If you can find a decent one buy it,its in my all time top ten synths.

On 22 Aug 2013, at 13:56, 7yash wrote:

A single filter => it's a paraphonic synth.

A normal polyphonic synth would have a filter for each voice, e.g. the JX-8P, which can sound massive, percussive, has fantastic strings,

e.g. 2. the DW-8000 which has 8 of the same filter in the Poly-800.

Yash

--- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Jason Adkins wrote:
>
> I cannot understand why certain people say the poly 800 is not a real
> polysynth over 50.000 couldn't care less, My favourite patch is the
> one with the Japanese percussion and the string coming in
> underneath,if it isn't a true polysynth I couldn't care less too,If I
> was on a desert island with a generator I'd rather have the Poly800
> than an FM synth.


Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-22 by Daniel Forró

I like it, too. I had never one, but had problematic and not quite  
well designed JX10 which I happily changed for MKS70 (with improved  
MIDI implementation).

Lazy tracks can be time shifted back to balance delay...

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 23 Aug, 2013, at 12:00 AM, Jason Adkins wrote:

>
>
> The JX8P is superb, the strings on this are some of the best I have  
> ever heard,totally underrated machine, think a lot of the reason why  
> the strings are so good is probably because of the chorus unit but  
> it sounds great even without it turned on.
> The only problem with the JX8P is its slow envelope response,i.e.  
> Attack, which meant fart-arseing around in Cubase to get it in time  
> but it
> also means on percussive sounds like bass etc you can get a great  
> lazy bass. If you can find a decent one buy it,its in my all time  
> top ten synths.

Re: Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-23 by 7yash

The difference between a paraphonic and a polyphonic analog can especially be heard in chords IMO, having a Poly-800, a DW-8000 as well.

The nonlinear distortion of several analog filters mixed together is fantastic.

Love my JX-8P as well.

Yash

Re: [korgpolyex] Re: Is it a real polysynth?

2013-08-23 by Eanna Butler

Michael, Yash, all spot-on points.

I've learned alot about the nature of polyphony since my earlier post, from reading this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec00/articles/synthsec.asp
Maybe a better description of the Poly800 is "Polyphonic DCO and Paraphonic VCF"...

Guess I do play chords on my EX800, or else use it as a monophonic synth. Guess I automatically went that route, cause that's how it 'wants' to be played. Guess I never properly thought about about the 'why' before now...

Everything you describe about the limitations of this synth, well first I thought "OK so this is why this synth cost me so little", then thought "OK this synth is probably not worth having", then thought "It's part of the charm, and the unique sound possible, that the three envs aren't the usual AR/ADSR, and that the amp and filter envs aren't retriggered when playing legato"... And remembered that, whatever about the physical limitations of the synth due to its architecture, I just like the sound of what I have programmed it to do so far... Has that quite-simple 80's sound I associate with happy days from my youth nailed to a tee, a noise source, a great filter, and the oscs are quite good - well, I don't have a problem with their sound, but yes I would indeed love some detuning action in dual mode for decent unison, or PWM...

Would introducing a modulated delay line, maybe into a simple overdrive/clipping circuit, in the outputs of each osc bank not 'simulate' harmonic richness before it hits the single filter?
I do like putting an overdrive pedal after my EX800 for adding aggression on monophonic sequenced bass lines, adding power to the dual mode, possibly putting it thru a filter after; or sometimes thru a nice analog chorus (Boss CE3 into an Ibanez SC10 is what I have - and the stereo outputs from these pedals means I can switch off the EX800's chorus), coaxing richness out of it for wide pad sounds.

In other words, it can sound smooth, does nice string-type sounds, it's polyphony at the oscillator level overrides its limitations in the envs and filters (loads of mono analogs out there these days), its easy to coax aggression out of that filter if you program it right, and has a sufficiently simple architecture that means it's OK to program from the front panel.

Would I like a JX8P? Yep! Would I miss the EX800? I think I would! Would I miss the few-hundred extra cost difference between the two? Right now, you betya.


Thanks, Eanna

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, 7yash <josh.nursing@...> wrote:

The difference between a paraphonic and a polyphonic analog can especially be heard in chords IMO, having a Poly-800, a DW-8000 as well.

The nonlinear distortion of several analog filters mixed together is fantastic.

Love my JX-8P as well.

Yash




--
EBu

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