EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I think I'll be waiting for what Garritan comes up with. If the quality is going to be comparable with GPO, it's gonna be fine with
me I think.
Apart from that, I really liked some of the Kick Arse Brass demos.

But then, I won't be composing big band stuff any day soon, I'll rather need them in a pop context, so my needs should be satisfied
rather easily.

The only thing I don't like with all of them is that you're limited to the Kompakt player. The EXS is still performing more
efficiently. And I generally don't like any proprietary formats at all either

- Sascha.

Sascha Franck <S.Franck@...> wrote:
>I think I'll be waiting for what Garritan comes up with. If the 
>quality is going to be comparable with GPO, it's gonna be fine with

>me I think.
>Apart from that, I really liked some of the Kick Arse Brass demos.

>But then, I won't be composing big band stuff any day soon, I'll 
>rather need them in a pop context, so my needs should be satisfied

>rather easily.

>The only thing I don't like with all of them is that you're limited to 
>the Kompakt player. The EXS is still performing more
>efficiently. And I generally don't like any proprietary formats at all
 >either



Ditto X 2 !!! can't wait for the samples, wish it was in EXS format

>Sascha Franck <S.Franck@...> wrote:
> >I think I'll be waiting for what Garritan comes up with. If the
> >quality is going to be comparable with GPO, it's gonna be fine with
>
> >me I think.
> >Apart from that, I really liked some of the Kick Arse Brass demos.

The AMG site says Kick Arse Brass 2 will be released in July, adding muted 
brass and bari sax to the original instruments. Looks like they're going 
the VI route, however. Seems to be no way around it these days.

Sean McCoy wrote:
> The AMG site says Kick Arse Brass 2 will be released in July, adding muted
> brass and bari sax to the original instruments. Looks like they're going
> the VI route, however. Seems to be no way around it these days.

Yeah well, the main problem probably being that "patch + separate samples" formats can be converted all too easily.
A while ago, when I was on some "free soundfont hunting", I detected quite some soundfonts with their samples being named
suspiciously familiar.
Those large "monolithic" patches (as coming with GPO and quite a few other libraries) simply don't allow for easy patch conversion,
so chances of things being re-distributed out of context are pretty much more unlikely.

And while I do understand this from a sample developers point of view, it's just another example of copy protection getting in the
way of the user.
I expect quite fewer sample libraries to be released in EXS format in the future because of that as well. Which is a shame, as it's
still the most efficient playback machine.

- Sascha

> Yeah well, the main problem probably being that "patch + separate samples"
> formats can be converted all too easily.
Too right ;-)
 
> And while I do understand this from a sample developers point of view, it's
> just another example of copy protection getting in the
> way of the user.
Unfortunately yes. Sadly, the 'magpie' attitude of many people has forced
developers to seek ways to protect the time, effort and money they invest in
their products. Just before I split with Akai, I proposed a copy protection
method that protected the WAVs in their sound library so that they could
only be used in a Z-series or MPC4000 sampler in order to prevent the
library they spend good $$$ on migrating to competing s/w samplers. This was
done but what became of it is anyone's guess as Numark stepped in shortly
afterwards - I don't think it was actually implemented (and, of course, it
looks like the Z-series was discontinued).

I am sure I don't have to preach here where the attitude towards piracy and
related practices is very healthy (as opposed to other forums I frequent!)
but developing sound library is quite a mammoth task (and largely a labour
of love in many cases). Venues have to be booked to record the samples,
equipment needs to be bought/hired, musicians, recording engineers have to
paid as do the programmers who then spend (literally) months staring into
screens painstakingly editing and looping (often) thousands of samples and
then, of course, mapping them out and programming the actual patches. Then
artwork needs to be done plus production/duplicating, advertising,
marketing, etc.. None of this comes cheap and it's not difficult to sink
tens of thousands of $$$ into a soundware product development! That
investment needs protection and the 'monolith' is a good way to achieve that
as it makes life more difficult to rip the sounds off (although I guess it's
not impossible in the hands of a determined hacker).

> I expect quite fewer sample libraries to be released in EXS format in the
> future because of that as well.
NI seem to have cornered the 'bundled player' market with soundware
developers. 

> Which is a shame, as it's still the most efficient playback machine.
I wonder if Apple could somehow be persuaded to make an EXS 'player'?!

I can't imagine it would be rocket science - keep the underlying engine but
offer a simplified UI (and, of course a monolithic sample structure).
Developers could then offer 'EXS Lite' as a way to present their product to
Logic users.

And maybe it would be prudent for them to use Chicken Systems' Multi-Format
Installer so that they could supply Kompakt AND 'EXS Lite' on one CD/DVD and
let the user decide which one to install depending on their preferred choice
of DAW/OS platform. Of course, given NI's stranglehold on the 'bundled
player' concept, I suspect this latter idea might depend on Apple/Emagic
adopting NI's 'monolith' standard/format so that both players could share a
common 'monolith' in much the same way as the MFIs share a common 'WAV pool'
on my CDs.

Just a thought.


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

Hollow Sun wrote:
> That
> investment needs protection and the 'monolith' is a good way to achieve that
> as it makes life more difficult to rip the sounds off (although I guess it's
> not impossible in the hands of a determined hacker).

You know Steve, even in the hands of someone who knows about nothing at all about hacking (that'd be me), it's still possible rather
easily. No worries, I won't spread that sort of "wisdom" - I only wanted to mention.
And in case you're asking yourself how I could know: I simply wanted to load some monolithic Kompakt-based patches into the EXS.
Finding out about how to do so took me like a 5-10 minute search on the web. But as said, I won't say what I searched for (nothing
illegal, just so much about that).

 > > Which is a shame, as it's still the most efficient playback machine.
> I wonder if Apple could somehow be persuaded to make an EXS 'player'?!

Well, there's the EXSP. But it's using the same file format as the EXS, so it's still "patch + samples".

And seriously: I allready said so, I can understand all those actions from a developer point of view - but as a user, I want my
patches to be of broad use. So, I just want them to be compatible with any of the softsamplers I own. And I also love mangling
samples myself, which is another no-no when using monolithic and proprietary formats.
Might not be as important when dealing with supposed-to-sound-realistic sets, but, for instance, I would NEVER ever buy some loop
library based on Intakt. It's just WAY too limited to please my needs.

Regards,
Sascha

Van: exs-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Namens
Sascha Franck
>And I also love mangling samples myself, which is another 
>no-no when using monolithic and proprietary formats. 
>(...) for instance, I would NEVER ever buy some loop 
>library based on Intakt. It's just WAY too limited 
>to please my needs.

Regard it as a rompler and extract the loops by recording them. Then
load them in your favorite player/mangler/squasher. Etc. 

Yes, it's more work, but to me it's well worth the trade off if
protection of the sample material is guaranteed better by some sort of
proprietary player. I have the curious habit of buying all hardware and
software that I need and these herds of mislead people who have all the
top libraries for the cost of empty cd's (thank god talent can't be
downloaded...) make me very sad now and then. Even to a point that I
considered to quit arranging/producing altogether and just go back to
the old trusty piano playing. 
But I also realize that top sounds don't necessary make you do your work
better or more creative and your clients more happy. Bringing in real
players and singers is often key to a succesful production.

Herbert Boland
www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

Sascha Franck <S.Franck@...> wrote:
Hollow Sun wrote:
> That
> investment needs protection and the 'monolith' is a good way to achieve that
> as it makes life more difficult to rip the sounds off (although I guess it's
> not impossible in the hands of a determined hacker).

You know Steve, even in the hands of someone who knows about nothing at all about hacking (that'd be me), it's still possible rather
easily. No worries, I won't spread that sort of "wisdom" - I only wanted to mention.
And in case you're asking yourself how I could know: I simply wanted to load some monolithic Kompakt-based patches into the EXS.
Finding out about how to do so took me like a 5-10 minute search on the web. But as said, I won't say what I searched for (nothing
illegal, just so much about that).

> > Which is a shame, as it's still the most efficient playback machine.
> I wonder if Apple could somehow be persuaded to make an EXS 'player'?!

>Well, there's the EXSP. But it's using the same file format as the 
>EXS, so it's still "patch + samples".

>And seriously: I allready said so, I can understand all those 
>actions from a developer point of view - but as a user, I want my

>patches to be of broad use. So, I just want them to be compatible 
>with any of the softsamplers I own. And I also love mangling
>samples myself, which is another no-no when using monolithic and >proprietary formats.

>Might not be as important when dealing with supposed-to-sound-
>realistic sets, but, for instance, I would NEVER ever buy some loop
>library based on Intakt. It's just WAY too limited to please my needs.

>Regards,
>Sascha

can't blame these cats for going propriatary. i see our stuff on the newsgroups all the time (actually, i haven't looked at a binary group for over a year, but i'm sure our stuff is out there still)
 
 with loops, there is absolutely no protection. mabey we should do an e-lab type VI on the next cd. but we would have to buy into a system like that, i'm sure. that would be some big ass dollars that we just don't have.
 
I heard a stat the other day that blew me away. If there were no piracy, america's trade deficet would be totally eliminated. that's staggering !!! what's sad is that we are not the only ones. globally, it's gotta be buku billions (mabey trillions), that are just flushed away by pirate theives every year.
 
Oh well, what can you do ??? put out the best product you can and trust in the good, honest nature of people

john mason wrote:
 > can't blame these cats for going propriatary. i see our stuff on the newsgroups all the time (actually, i haven't looked at a
binary group for over a year, but i'm sure our stuff is out there still)

In times of fast broadband net connections using large monolithic files doesn't seem to help. Instead of downloading illegally
redistributed single patches people are just going for the cracked player along with the samples.

> I heard a stat the other day that blew me away. If there were no piracy, america's trade deficet would be totally eliminated.
that's staggering !!

I don't believe this for a single second. It's sheer nonsense. Just the same sort of nonsense record companies and the RIAA are
telling us, such as "every download is a lost sale" - which is utter bullshit. I remember some MIT profs doing a research on that
thing (and yes, they interviewed people anonymously and things like that), and it came out that the actual loss through downloaded
music was like around 2-3% of the overall loss.
The same might be true for pirated software, samples, videos and whatever (ok, actually, regarding videos it *might* be a bit
different). I suspect most people being hunters and collectors, no actual users.
Almost all the people I know actually using software have bought it.

But yes, it might be a bit different with samples, as you can "hide" them somewhat easily, especially once they're converted to some
other format.
And of course, I could just get some chainsaw out whenever I run into a (commercial) studio with walls of copied sample CDs - "Oh,
those are backup copies, we keep the originals at a safe place"... such assholes are driving me sick indeed. You spend like 1500
Euro a day in their studios and they can't even afford their string libraries, good god, what a sick world.

Still, I don't think monolithic file formats are helping a lot.

Regards,
Sascha

exs-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Sascha
Franck:
>I suspect most people being hunters and collectors, 
>no actual users. Almost all the people 
>I know actually using software have bought it.

"Hunters and collectors", yes, those primitive folks!
I know quite a few unfortunally, even people who try to make a small
living with music, who are actually working with software with the
dreaded H 2 O blue boot screen. So hunters: yes probably, and so called
professionals: unfortunally yes too. And their sample libraries? Don't
want to know. I try to stay away from them Neanderthalers.

But I agree. Most of the people that use the illegal stuf never will
buy. On the other hand, if they are starters in the music business, they
prove unfair competitors because they can work more cheaply with less
investments to take care of. So this phenomenon is affecting economy,
one way or another.

Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

Hi,

On 22-Jun-05, at 5:10 AM, Sascha Franck wrote:

>  And of course, I could just get some chainsaw out whenever I run into 
> a (commercial) studio with walls of copied sample CDs - "Oh,
>  those are backup copies, we keep the originals at a safe place"... 
> such assholes are driving me sick indeed. You spend like 1500
>  Euro a day in their studios and they can't even afford their string 
> libraries, good god, what a sick world.

Technically, whether those string libraries in studios are originals or 
copies, the copyright is still being infringed.  People aren't allowed 
as part of the license agreement to rent out sample libs by allowing 
someone who comes to their studio to use the sounds.

>  Still, I don't think monolithic file formats are helping a lot.

I agree although I do believe that it has helped a bit.

Fernstudio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 22.06.2005, at 15:56, Herbert Boland wrote:

> ... if they are starters in the music business, they
> prove unfair competitors because they can work more cheaply with less
> investments to take care of. So this phenomenon is affecting economy,
> one way or another.

They even call that kind of theft "economic"...

___
Peter Ostry

--- Sascha Franck <S.Franck@...> wrote:

> john mason wrote:
>  > can't blame these cats for going propriatary. i
> see our stuff on the newsgroups all the time
> (actually, i haven't looked at a
> binary group for over a year, but i'm sure our stuff
> is out there still)
> 
> In times of fast broadband net connections using
> large monolithic files doesn't seem to help. Instead
> of downloading illegally
> redistributed single patches people are just going
> for the cracked player along with the samples.
> 
> > I heard a stat the other day that blew me away. If
> there were no piracy, america's trade deficet would
> be totally eliminated.
> that's staggering !!
> 
> I don't believe this for a single second. It's sheer
> nonsense. Just the same sort of nonsense record
> companies and the RIAA

Boy, I could go on a rant about those clowns. I do not
however, want to start a huge flame war over them

> telling us, such as "every download is a lost sale"
> - which is utter bullshit. I remember some MIT profs
> doing a research on that
> thing (and yes, they interviewed people anonymously
> and things like that), and it came out that the
> actual loss through downloaded
> music was like around 2-3% of the overall loss.
> The same might be true for pirated software,
> samples, videos and whatever (ok, actually,
> regarding videos it *might* be a bit
> different). I suspect most people being hunters and
> collectors, no actual users.
> Almost all the people I know actually using software
> have bought it.
 
You're probably right, Sir !!!  I'm a good example of
a pirate gone legit. The problem is that in the age of
information, there are no fences, alarm systems, 
guard dogs, or police to prevent theft on a global
scale.

anyway, that notion is out there, coming from
nationally known media sources

 
> But yes, it might be a bit different with samples,
> as you can "hide" them somewhat easily, especially
> once they're converted to some
> other format.
> And of course, I could just get some chainsaw out
> whenever I run into a (commercial) studio with walls
> of copied sample CDs - "Oh,
> those are backup copies, we keep the originals at a
> safe place"... such assholes are driving me sick
> indeed. You spend like 1500
> Euro a day in their studios and they can't even
> afford their string libraries, good god, what a sick
> world.
Talk about convoluted robin hood- they steal from
honest folks to give to the greedy
 
> Still, I don't think monolithic file formats are
> helping a lot.

I'm with you there too. I bought e-lab's  "foundation"
recently (which is a great product -BTW). The main
file is a single HUGE file weighing in at about 4 GB.
That's a lot of space on the 40gb drive in my
Powerbook. It would be nice to just use a portion of
that at a time.


 
> Regards,
> Sascha




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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> They even call that kind of theft "economic"...
Sadly they do :-(

I (unfortunately) entered into an argument not so long ago with some modern
'yoof' internet guerilla who maintained that it is quite acceptable - even
'democratic' - to use pirated, hacked software without question... in fact,
he actually promoted and recommended the practice.

So when I asked if he would walk into a local music store and just take a
guitar off the wall and walk out with it, he argued that it would be ok to
walk into a local music store, make a copy of the guitar and walk out with
*that*! 

Idiot!

But sadly a prevalent attitude :-(


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

> Talk about convoluted robin hood- they steal from
> honest folks to give to the greedy
Ha!

Nice analogy and a succinct summary!


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

exs-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Namens
Hollow Sun
>So when I asked if he would walk into a 
>local music store and just take a guitar 
>off the wall and walk out with it, he argued 
>that it would be ok to walk into a local music 
>store, make a copy of the guitar and walk out 
>with *that*! 

Ah, that's it! I always wondered what their reasoning would be. 
Copying a guitar, what a fool. I instead, would go to the state bank,
ask to see some examples of the larger bank notes and make copies of
them. Much much easier. 

Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert Boland" <yahoo@z...> wrote:
> exs-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Sascha
> Franck:
I suspect most people are hunters and collectors, but registered users. 
Almost all the people I know are using software they have bought legally.

"Hunters and collectors", yes, them primitive folks!

Disagree,
If you are working on a real project, you simply do not google for free stuff, 
nor do you have the time to rip 'em.
Instead, you do, hopefully, have a calculation ( google for that one and raise some self-
respect for yourself as a musician),
so you buy all the stuff that coincides with your project.
With this mail, I actually started to respond for my own recreational purposes only

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@g...> 
wrote:
> john mason wrote:<snip>
> > I heard a stat the other day that blew me away. If there were no 
piracy, america's trade deficet would be totally eliminated.
> that's staggering !!
> 
> I don't believe this for a single second. It's sheer nonsense. 
Just the same sort of nonsense record companies and the RIAA are
> telling us, such as "every download is a lost sale" - which is 
utter bullshit. I remember some MIT profs doing a research on that
> thing (and yes, they interviewed people anonymously and things 
like that), and it came out that the actual loss through downloaded
> music was like around 2-3% of the overall loss.
> The same might be true for pirated software, samples, videos and 
whatever (ok, actually, regarding videos it *might* be a bit
> different). I suspect most people being hunters and collectors, no 
actual users.
> Almost all the people I know actually using software have bought 
it.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Sascha

<snip>

While I agree with you that piracy isn't so large that the trade 
deficit could be eliminated if there was none, I also think the MIT 
study is based on some totally false assumptions. I downloaded it 
when it came out and the authors assume that people who have illegal 
files really wouldn't have them if they weren't "free". In other 
words, people ultimately are downloading stuff they really don't 
want. Yah right!

I have lots of buddies with cracked software and i-pods full of 
tunes they got illegally (peer to peer groups). They use the 
software and listen to the tunes all the time. Their excuse is the 
same thing:"we really wouldn't buy this anyways, so its alright to 
have it".

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I think Sascha makes some interesting points about sample piracy. I 
know a guy who has so many ripped off sample cds and software 
programs, he couldn't possibly use them all in his lifetime, yet every 
day it seems, he is downloading more and more. I know others who do 
the same with movies or cds. It quite resembles a drug addiction and 
is also like a squirrel gathering nuts, except not even stopping to 
eat any of them! 
 I never bought the RIAA and record company line about the large net 
losses incured from piracy, but I wonder about how I would feel if my 
own music, sound designs, patches, or samples I created were readily 
available for free to folks who may not even listen to them or do any 
thing creative with them. Just a thought or two.

Hi,

On 23-Jun-05, at 6:58 AM, Jeff Weinberger wrote:

>  I think Sascha makes some interesting points about sample piracy.

I agree that it is interesting as well.

>  I never bought the RIAA and record company line about the large net
>  losses incured from piracy, but I wonder about how I would feel if my
>  own music, sound designs, patches, or samples I created were readily
>  available for free to folks who may not even listen to them or do any
>  thing creative with them. Just a thought or two.

There are people who fall into this but many more who don't and use the 
samples too (maybe not all of them but some of them).  So, while I 
agree with you to a certain extent, piracy is still piracy.  We need to 
get used to the fact that copy protection is here to stay for the time 
being.  The best thing for us to do is to encourage that it not get in 
our way too much.  If we hold a valid license, that we are able to use 
the samples freely at any time without having to wait for the next 
business day while we get a new key or WHY.

Fernstudio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fernstudio wrote:
> We need to
> get used to the fact that copy protection is here to stay for the time
> being.  The best thing for us to do is to encourage that it not get in
> our way too much.  If we hold a valid license, that we are able to use
> the samples freely at any time without having to wait for the next
> business day while we get a new key or WHY.

See, that's the bad point about copy protection.
Obviously, all the various copy protection schemes only need to exist due to piracy, but IMO things are pretty much getting too far
sometimes. There's more than enough people going like "Buy things legally but use the crack" - for whatever reasons. The first time
I read this comment was by a Waves users. Shortly thereafter I became a beta tester for them - and I immediately knew what this
comment was all about. In the end, one of the reasons for me to quit testing for Waves was their ultra lousy PACE implementation
back then (it seems to have gotten better, but it was enough for me), causing all sorts of weird problems (for clarification: I
didn't use the crack instead but stopped using Waves products entirely).
Then there's dongles which might get broken or stolen. Then there's challenge and response protection - believe me, it will ask you
for a reauthorisation out of the blue during an important production. And, following Murphy's law, just at that time the website of
the company will be down.
All this doesn't happen with cracks - so, not only that those folks don't pay for their stuff, no, they even have less troubles.
It's really sickening.

- Sascha

Fernstudio wrote:
 We need to get used to the fact that copy protection is here to stay 
for the time being.  The best thing for us to do is to encourage that 
it not get in our way too much. 

 I think you're right. It seems to me a minor hassle that users can 
put up with knowing that the developers and creative folks putting 
these productstogether are able to make a living at it. 

Maybe a little off topic, but related: Does anyone have a clue about 
the current laws regarding samples taken off records? I've been 
avoiding them for a number of reasons, but kind of miss the days when 
I used to grab a James Brown horn hit here and a funk breakbeat there 
and use them with my own melody, harmony, bassline, guitar part, etc. 
Is it still safe to sample small bits or is this as illegal as 
grabbing 8 bars of someonelses song, looping it, and rapping over it? 
The law seems to have gotten more complicated.

Hi Jeff,

On 23-Jun-05, at 6:16 PM, Jeff Weinberger wrote:

>  Maybe a little off topic, but related: Does anyone have a clue about
>  the current laws regarding samples taken off records? I've been
>  avoiding them for a number of reasons, but kind of miss the days when
>  I used to grab a James Brown horn hit here and a funk breakbeat there
>  and use them with my own melody, harmony, bassline, guitar part, etc.
>  Is it still safe to sample small bits or is this as illegal as
>  grabbing 8 bars of someonelses song, looping it, and rapping over it?
>  The law seems to have gotten more complicated.

Technically it is illegal, even though you are being creative with it.  
If you were to release it, you would need to get permission to use the 
original recording(s).  I don't know if you remember a song that was a 
hit a few years back by the Verve (or Verve Pipe, can't remember) where 
their song "Bittersweet Symphony" had a sample from an old obscure 
Rolling Stones tune in it.  I don't recall all of the details but they 
had requested permission for the use but were sued anyway (the suit 
stated that they used more of the song than originally granted) and had 
to give over 100% of the royalties.  That would be a good example of 
this type of scenario.

Anyway, it is only illegal if you don't get permission.  If you request 
permission and are granted it, then there is nothing illegal in doing 
it.  However, you need to have it be clear how much of the song you are 
sampling and which part.  I believe the situation with the Verve was 
that the holder of the copyright for that song felt that they used more 
of the song than originally agreed to.  If you're not releasing the 
music, then it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to come after 
you.  HTH,

Fernstudio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
[mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Namens Fernstudio
>Anyway, it is only illegal if you don't get permission.  
>If you request permission and are granted it, then 
>there is nothing illegal in doing it.

In the case you get permission but they charge you (a large sum) for it,
it can be of interest to rebuild a sample from scratch. There are
studios specialising in recreating pieces of few seconds of specific
recordings that are used in songs or commercials. I read about it in
Sound on sound some time ago, an interview with a couple of UK based
producers. It is very tedious and labour-intensive, but if done right,
people can't tell the difference. It was interesting to read how they do
it.

Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

Herbert Boland wrote:
> In the case you get permission but they charge you (a large sum) for it,
> it can be of interest to rebuild a sample from scratch. There are
> studios specialising in recreating pieces of few seconds of specific
> recordings that are used in songs or commercials. I read about it in
> Sound on sound some time ago, an interview with a couple of UK based
> producers. It is very tedious and labour-intensive, but if done right,
> people can't tell the difference. It was interesting to read how they do
> it.

Yeah, that's happening a lot. Two friends of mine are a bit into that sort of thing.
A while ago they were asked to redo the backing track of Boney M's "Sunny" for some DJs to remix it with access to individual tracks
and parts, and it's been that good that they were running into legal problems. They were indeed accused of having stolen the
original material, so someone came over to see the individual tracks they have recorded.

On a side note: I found it interestingly enough that most of the material has been recorded and produced in a bedroom studio, using
a completely outdated Celeron 466 based Windows machine. Just the polishing (and partial premixing) has been done in a real studio.

Regards,
Sascha

Hi Fernstudio,
 Yes, I remember reading about the Bittersweet
Symphony case as well as Biz Markie, 2 Live Crew,
NWA, and others. I am aware that if you ask
permission, you often share a cowriting credit
with the author(s) of the song you sampled. Some
artists won't allow sampling of their work no
matter how much they could make in royalties
since they disapprove of rap or dance music or
just the concept of appropriation of an original
composition. But are you saying that Sinead
O'Connor had to clear her use of James Brown's
"Funky Drummer" (a 1 bar drum break)?

 What of all the hundreds of top 40 tunes over
the last 15 or so years that have drum breaks,
horn hits, scratched accapella raps, etc? Do they
all go through the sample clearance process
before releasing their song?

 Does every snare or kick drum I sample from a
record need to be cleared? What if the drum sound
is altered into a totally new sound that doesn't
resemble the original? That's what I mean about
being confused about the current status of the
law. I can't imagine a jury or FBI agent would
come to my studio and make me undo all of the
processing to reveal the source of my new sound.

 I have heard some of those replayed loops on
radio spots. Some are very weak, but some have
nailed the original right down to the Neumann
mics, Neve consoles, EMT plate reverbs, and
soulful performances. Pretty crafty. It would be
an excellent exersize for musicians and engineers
to try to recreate the sounds of yore just to
learn to listen critically and really know what
the gear does. I bet you can learn a lot. Which
issue of Sound On Sound had that article?



Peace,

        j

Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness
that created them - Albert Einstein

[mailto:exs-users@yahoogroups.com] Jeff W :
>Which issue of Sound On Sound had that article?

SOS September 2003, p. 194. Interview with two guys from Rinse
Productions. Good read.


Herbert Boland

www.herbertboland.nl .:. Composer and Sound Designer .:.
www.zepmusic.com  .:. Open Songwriters Network .:.

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Weinberger" <natural_one87@y...> wrote:
>  I think Sascha makes some interesting points about sample piracy. I 
> know a guy who has so many ripped off sample cds and software 
> programs, he couldn't possibly use them all in his lifetime

Correct, it's a drug problem, I call it bedroom metal...

As an example, under german copyright law, 4 bars are not considered piracy.
Should become, or is it already, maybe, international standard.

But, you may agree or not, 
"Songs In The Key Of Life" is a masterpeace, 
like Mona Lisa, 
if you might not know it, it is highly recommended for studys, 
especially for Stevie's use of the Linn drum, yeah, his grooves obviously,
but I instantly fall asleep when someone comes up with a (even authorized) 
so-called new version of one of the scores, hi Will, dig u man.

Anyway, don't fool yourself, 
men, women also, are HUNTERS, it's called "Human Nature", 
midi file's available on the web,
so if there's bait, someone will take it.

Sampling James Brown? 
You must be kidding, 
learn how to write them brass/reed sections by studiing midi files of E,W&F, Chicago, 
Osibisa, Supersax, even Max Greger...

Yes, lawyer's...
Try not to become a bait for these guys, they are different...

Hi moderators, am I allowed to promote myself here,
as I do see a need for more information?
O.K.?
(By the way I'd like to receive a comment, when and why my post's are moderated, 
as a human beeing here in the free world or I'll ask have to ask the question: 
" Who moderates the moderators", quis custodiat custodes?

Here you go, 
Take a look and listen (be sure to wear headphones for the sheer fun of it) :

http://www.tbs-bluesign.com/

What Shakespeare piece are you acually working on?
Themes need referrence

Enjoy life

--- haraldschneller <haraldschneller@...>
wrote:

> Sampling James Brown? 
> You must be kidding, 
> learn how to write them brass/reed sections by
> studiing midi files of E,W&F, Chicago, 
> Osibisa, Supersax, even Max Greger...
 

 No, Harald, I don't sample James Brown anymore.
I have in the past, but that was then. I wasn't
referring to horn parts, just single hits(blats),
you know like the intro to "Get Up Off of That
Thing". I hear what you're saying about learning
to writ and arrange for horns. Been there, done
that(Berklee taught me well). I love Stevie
Wonder too and hear his influence all over modern
R&B. The message is good and I dig ya. Don't
steal, create.

Peace,

        j

Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness
that created them - Albert Einstein

Thanks Herbert. I'll see if I can get a hold of
it.


Jeff W :
> >Which issue of Sound On Sound had that
> article?

> --- Herbert Boland <yahoo@...>
wrote:

> SOS September 2003, p. 194. Interview with two
> guys from Rinse
> Productions. Good read.


Peace,

        j

Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness
that created them - Albert Einstein

hi,

the article is online:

   http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep03/articles/rinse.htm

rgds,

.bj\ufffdrn

Jeff W wrote:

> Thanks Herbert. I'll see if I can get a hold of
> it.
> 
> 
> Jeff W :
> 
>>>Which issue of Sound On Sound had that
>>
>>article?
> 
> 
>>--- Herbert Boland <yahoo@...>
> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>SOS September 2003, p. 194. Interview with two
>>guys from Rinse
>>Productions. Good read.
> 
> 
> 
> Peace,
> 
>         j

Very interesting. Thanks for finding that!

- Lenny

Bjorn Elfstrom wrote:

>hi,
>
>the article is online:
>
>   http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep03/articles/rinse.htm
>
>rgds,
>
>.bj\ufffdrn
>
>Jeff W wrote:
>  
>
>>Thanks Herbert. I'll see if I can get a hold of
>>it.
>>
>>
>>Jeff W :
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>Which issue of Sound On Sound had that
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>article?
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>>>--- Herbert Boland <yahoo@...>
>>>      
>>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>SOS September 2003, p. 194. Interview with two
>>>guys from Rinse
>>>Productions. Good read.
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>        j
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
=========================================================================
 Lenny Stearns                                     lens@...
 Alexandria, Virginia
=========================================================================

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jeff W <natural_one87@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- haraldschneller <haraldschneller@w...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Sampling James Brown? 
> > You must be kidding, 
> > learn how to write them brass/reed sections by
> > studying midi files of E,W&F, Chicago, 
> > Osibisa, Supersax, even Max Greger...
>  
> 
>  No, Harald, I don't sample James Brown anymore.
> I have in the past, but that was then. I wasn't
> referring to horn parts, just single hits(blats),
> you know like the intro to "Get Up Off of That
> Thing". I hear what you're saying about learning
> to writ and arrange for horns. Been there, done
> that(Berklee taught me well). I love Stevie
> Wonder too and hear his influence all over modern
> R&B. The message is good and I dig ya. Don't
> steal, create.

That's the kind of response I was looking forward to,.
You are qualified, so post the numerical rhythm to that song I do'nt know here.

Don't understand you anyway, 
but, as far as information is concerned, it's not enough to absorb it, 
it takes some time for it to sink in, aka become a natural part of yourself.
Greedy 'bout Berklee, could'nt afford it, learned it on stage, who cares anyway.

Richard Dawkins is convinced the human body is a conglomerate of selfish cells,
working together, imo, we musicians already do.

Let's get back to the topic of this group, 
balsaming the moderators too, there has to be someone doing this job...

I'm in this group because exs is THE instrument (besides Sculpture).

There is no os war, you can find sounds for free everywhere, everybody's friendly 
responding mails, helpfull, harmony

enjoy life

Bjorn, 
 Thanks so much for the URL. Cheers.



Peace,

        j

Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness
that created them - Albert Einstein

> I know a guy who has so many ripped off sample cds and software
> programs, he couldn't possibly use them all in his lifetime, yet every
> day it seems, he is downloading more and more. I know others who do
> the same with movies or cds. It quite resembles a drug addiction
Indeed. 

This is a curious new trend... people just 'collecting' sound after sound to
amass the largest library imaginable ....

But never using them - I know *loads* of people like this.

> is also like a squirrel gathering nuts, except not even stopping to
> eat any of them!
Not so much like squirrels - I liken them more to magpies... collecting
things they have no use for.

And these people don't seem to care about quality either... they'll just
download or acquire *anything*! And sadly, they don't seem concerned about
the source or its copyright either :-(

I know people who come home from work, have something to eat, crack open a
beer and spend every evening scouring the net for freebie downloads! Why
don't they spend the same time actually making music? Ah yes... that'll be
because they don't have enough sounds... best get some more. And so it goes
on.

I find it very peculiar.


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

Just a quick note to say that there are 2 new DVDROM at 
http://www.nikkoid.com
 with new online downloads at http://www.gigfiles.com

Sampled with 8 levels of velocity this synths is a rare item doing 
unique and wild things!

Best

Nikko