Yahoo Groups archive

Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:18 UTC

Thread

Explanation of softproof issue...

Explanation of softproof issue...

2008-07-14 by CDTobie@aol.com

Let me see if I can describe this in a way that makes sense...

An AdobeRGB or sRGB image in Photoshop is an ideal image, its only limits being the workingspace. The view of that image you see on screen is that ideal image, gamut-limited to your display's capabilities. The version of your same image that you see when you select a printer profile for softproofing now emulates your output on screen (again limited to the screen's capabilities, if they are less than the printer's in some areas). The fact that the original poster says that the softproof and the final print are reasonable matches would show that the softproof is more or less doing its job.

The tendency to then want the softproof to look just like the original image is a tricky one. The softproof's job is to show you the printed output, not the ideal image. Yes, it may be possible to then increase contrast and punch in an effort to make the softproof, at least within gamut, resemble the effect you get from the original image a bit more; thats one of the purposes of a printer profile, to allow this type of adjustment.

But the question that gets asked of me tends to be: why doesn't my softproof AUTOMATICALLY resemble my original image as much as possible? This question misses the point. If your printer/ink/media combination offers a perfect white, a perfect black, and incredibly saturated colors, then the difference between the original image and the softproof will be negligable; most people who print on glossy media with wide gamut inks don't even bother to use softproof mode, as their AdobeRGB image and their prints are so similar.

Its when your printer/ink/media combination does not offer that type of gamut that the softproof becomes less satisfactory. At that point the "punching up" that gets done to compensate is not just printer/ink/paper specific, it is, in some ways, image specific. You can add punch by increasing contrast, but only at the cost of shadow detail; if punch matters more to your image than shadow detail, thats a good choice, but the profile should NOT be doing that for you, as it is moving further from linearity and full range, to loss of detail for the sake of punchiness. Similarly, you can add saturation to the midsaturation colors, making the image more colorful, but only at the cost of detail in the high saturation areas of the image (turning bright red roses from detailed, but less saturated representations, to big, blank blobs of red). Again, for one use, or one image, this saturation increase may be a good choice, for others it will not.

So yes, expect a good match between your softproof and your print, and use the Ref Black and Ref White checkboxes to further improve this match if needed. But do not expect a "good match" between the initial image and the softproof; accept that the softproof is a print representation, and is your opportunity to make detail versus punch choices, without expecting the profile to automatically make them for you.

On the other hand, moving to the Saturation intent, and being sure that Black Point Compensation is OFF will assure you the brightest initial colors and punchiest initial blacks before any such manipulations are considered. Being sure that you are using and appropriate monitor luminance, under an appropriate amount of ambient light is another set of factors that can effect your softproofing, as is the use of a reasonable D50 proofing light for your comparisons.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Re: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...

2008-07-14 by magickPal

David
Thanks for your taking the time to explain softproofing so clearly. I have never quite understood what the rationale is between the displayed image and the image given from Softproof. I think it is a source of confusion for many of us. A question still seems to remain and that is, how does Photoshop come to displaying the "ideal image"? Is it a display that depicts the particular workspace, without particular paper, printer and ink limitations?
I use matte papers exclusively for my work and sometimes find great differences in how the darks are portrayed. I more or less, have to fly blind and can only make proofs to ascertain what is happening in this area. I cant see much difference when Black Point Compensation is off or on, but I am guessing that could vary greatly with the individual image.
;
David Pal
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:27 AM
Subject: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...

Let me see if I can describe this in a way that makes sense...

An AdobeRGB or sRGB image in Photoshop is an ideal image, its only limits being the workingspace. The view of that image you see on screen is that ideal image, gamut-limited to your display's capabilities. The version of your same image that you see when you select a printer profile for softproofing now emulates your output on screen (again limited to the screen's capabilities, if they are less than the printer's in some areas). The fact that the original poster says that the softproof and the final print are reasonable matches would show that the softproof is more or less doing its job.

The tendency to then want the softproof to look just like the original image is a tricky one. The softproof's job is to show you the printed output, not the ideal image. Yes, it may be possible to then increase contrast and punch in an effort to make the softproof, at least within gamut, resemble the effect you get from the original image a bit more; thats one of the purposes of a printer profile, to allow this type of adjustment.

But the question that gets asked of me tends to be: why doesn't my softproof AUTOMATICALLY resemble my original image as much as possible? This question misses the point. If your printer/ink/media combination offers a perfect white, a perfect black, and incredibly saturated colors, then the difference between the original image and the softproof will be negligable; most people who print on glossy media with wide gamut inks don't even bother to use softproof mode, as their AdobeRGB image and their prints are so similar.

Its when your printer/ink/media combination does not offer that type of gamut that the softproof becomes less satisfactory. At that point the "punching up" that gets done to compensate is not just printer/ink/paper specific, it is, in some ways, image specific. You can add punch by increasing contrast, but only at the cost of shadow detail; if punch matters more to your image than shadow detail, thats a good choice, but the profile should NOT be doing that for you, as it is moving further from linearity and full range, to loss of detail for the sake of punchiness. Similarly, you can add saturation to the midsaturation colors, making the image more colorful, but only at the cost of detail in the high saturation areas of the image (turning bright red roses from detailed, but less saturated representations, to big, blank blobs of red). Again, for one use, or one image, this saturation increase may be a good choice, for others it will not.

So yes, expect a good match between your softproof and your print, and use the Ref Black and Ref White checkboxes to further improve this match if needed. But do not expect a "good match" between the initial image and the softproof; accept that the softproof is a print representation, and is your opportunity to make detail versus punch choices, without expecting the profile to automatically make them for you.

On the other hand, moving to the Saturation intent, and being sure that Black Point Compensation is OFF will assure you the brightest initial colors and punchiest initial blacks before any such manipulations are considered. Being sure that you are using and appropriate monitor luminance, under an appropriate amount of ambient light is another set of factors that can effect your softproofing, as is the use of a reasonable D50 proofing light for your comparisons.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Re: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...

2008-07-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 7/14/08 12:09:23 PM, magick246@... writes:


Thanks for your taking the time to explain softproofing so clearly.

Unfortunately, in a single unillustrated email, there is much about softproofing that I could not explain, but I was hoping to address what was needed to get to the reason the softproof on screen does not look like the non-softproof image...

I have never quite understood what the rationale is between the displayed image and the image given from Softproof. I think it is a source of confusion for many of us. A question still seems to remain and that is, how does Photoshop come to displaying the "ideal image"? Is it a display that depicts the particular workspace, without particular paper, printer and ink limitations?

The workingspace image is an image that has fewer constraints; it represents what you camera could capture, imported through your workflow, and held on disk, ideally tagged with a workingspace to give the RGB values specific meaning. The view of it is all of that, limited by the gamut of your display, in any area where that is less than the image gamut. Having a standard gamut CinemaDisplay right next to an Eizo Wide Gamut display, I can move images from one to the other to gauge what effect the display gamut has on images. Except for cartoon colors, the answer is typically: not too much.


I use matte papers exclusively for my work and sometimes find great differences in how the darks are portrayed. I more or less, have to fly blind and can only make proofs to ascertain what is happening in this area. I cant see much difference when Black Point Compensation is off or on, but I am guessing that could vary greatly with the individual image.

BPC has more or less effect depending on the image, the media's D-max, and the rendering intent. Turning BPC off with a ColorMunki profile in any intent except perceptual, for a matte paper, will result in unacceptable detail clogging. We have chosen to go in the other direction (since BPC is only available through Adobe applications) and design our profiles to be used without BPC, so that they can be used with any color managed application, and any intent, not just Adobe apps with BPC. Have you experimented with adjusting the L* value in Reference Black to tune your softproof-to-print match?

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Re: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...

2008-07-14 by magickPal

<>
I have not tried adjusting the L value with your software, but I surely will. I did try adjusting some controls with a friend that has Imageprint and the blacks came out the same as with the Epson profile. It seemed that if I pushed farther the black got a sheen that actually made it look grayer. This is my theorizing and regard its credibility warily. I have found there is a rather tricky learning process, that comes with the Epson matte blacks, that I have become familiar with in time. Its a fine line and it sounds like your suggestion is a fundamental way to go, that I am just beginning to understand how to do with you product, which I am very happy with, by the way.
Thank you again,
David
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...


In a message dated 7/14/08 12:09:23 PM, magick246@suddenlink.net writes:


Thanks for your taking the time to explain softproofing so clearly.

Unfortunately, in a single unillustrated email, there is much about softproofing that I could not explain, but I was hoping to address what was needed to get to the reason the softproof on screen does not look like the non-softproof image...

I have never quite understood what the rationale is between the displayed image and the image given from Softproof. I think it is a source of confusion for many of us. A question still seems to remain and that is, how does Photoshop come to displaying the "ideal image"? Is it a display that depicts the particular workspace, without particular paper, printer and ink limitations?

The workingspace image is an image that has fewer constraints; it represents what you camera could capture, imported through your workflow, and held on disk, ideally tagged with a workingspace to give the RGB values specific meaning. The view of it is all of that, limited by the gamut of your display, in any area where that is less than the image gamut. Having a standard gamut CinemaDisplay right next to an Eizo Wide Gamut display, I can move images from one to the other to gauge what effect the display gamut has on images. Except for cartoon colors, the answer is typically: not too much.


I use matte papers exclusively for my work and sometimes find great differences in how the darks are portrayed. I more or less, have to fly blind and can only make proofs to ascertain what is happening in this area. I cant see much difference when Black Point Compensation is off or on, but I am guessing that could vary greatly with the individual image.

BPC has more or less effect depending on the image, the media's D-max, and the rendering intent. Turning BPC off with a ColorMunki profile in any intent except perceptual, for a matte paper, will result in unacceptable detail clogging. We have chosen to go in the other direction (since BPC is only available through Adobe applications) and design our profiles to be used without BPC, so that they can be used with any color managed application, and any intent, not just Adobe apps with BPC. Have you experimented with adjusting the L* value in Reference Black to tune your softproof-to-print match?

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Re: [colorvision_group] Explanation of softproof issue...

2008-07-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 7/14/08 3:11:35 PM, magick246@... writes:


I have not tried adjusting the L value with your software, but I surely will.

What I was suggesting (L* adjustment in Ref Black) will only effect the softproof's black preview, not the print. Its goal is to tune the softproof closely to what you see in your printed output, under your proofing conditions.

I did try adjusting some controls with a friend that has Imageprint and the blacks came out the same as with the Epson profile. It seemed that if I pushed farther the black got a sheen that actually made it look grayer.

There you are speaking of messing with black ink density with a RIP. Yes, once the optimal black density has been reached, you can get bronzing effects that are undesirable.

This is my theorizing and regard its credibility warily. I have found there is a rather tricky learning process, that comes with the Epson matte blacks, that I have become familiar with in time. Its a fine line and it sounds like your suggestion is a fundamental way to go, that I am just beginning to understand how to do with you product, which I am very happy with, by the way.


Glad you are happy with our products; learning some advanced methods to control them may improve your satisfaction even further...


C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.