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Considering Serge

Considering Serge

2008-11-13 by jalmari3

Hello! This is my first post here.

I consider starting a banana system. Mostly I am worried about the
fact, that single Serge modules are not available. However, I have some
other concerns:

1. Apart from Serge, Modcan and Cynthia, are there other manufacturers?

2. Are Cynthia modules actually available at the moment?

3. How do you usually handle CV attenuation in a Serge system?

4. New Timbral Oscillator seems to the only audio oscillator with
rectangle. Can it do normal PWM sounds?

5. Are there VCA:s with linear and logarithmic response in banana
format?

Best regards
Jari Jokinen

Re: Considering Serge

2008-11-13 by matthew carpenter

Welcome!

I'll do my best to answer what I can. Hopefully, others will chime in, as well.

1. Metalbox will do banana jacks at no extra charge and there's another banana-based system
on the horizon but I can't say who it is.

2. I think so, but you may have to wait.... You might be better off joining the Modcan and Cyndustries
lists and looking for them secondhand.
On the other hand, Modcan's delivery times, customer service and quality are unimpeachable
in my experience and from everything I've read.

3. Within the system, you mean? Most modules have CV attenuators at their inputs. Otherwise,
you have the Scaling Processors, Scaling Buffers, Active Processor, Dual Processor, Control Module,
etc., all of which are ideal for CV attenuation and inversion. You really have a ton of choices and this is
one area in which Serge truly excels.

4. The PWM on the NTO is not quite the classic PWM you know and love but it's really close
and has it's own euphonic character. The new TGO (Time Gen Oscillator) can do PWM but I
haven't personally heard it.

There are many other ways to get the classic PWM sound. For example, you can use an NCOM
to square up any audio signal (in the +' input), then patch an attenuated modulator
into the '-' input and you have superb PWM sounds. I've gotten great PWM sounds with the
Dual Schmitt Triggers, too.

I'll leave 5 to someone else.

Last, a comment on the Serge philosophy and 'modularity'. Don't worry too much about the fact that single modules are not available. The more I use my Serge the more I realize just how brilliantly conceived the M-Class M-odules and shop panels are. There are no superfluous modules. They function cells are grouped together for a reason, maybe more than one reason, and this may not be apparent at first, but will become apparent as you use the system. The Serge has the benefit of decades of refinement and the current M-class line and shop panels reflects this.

Hope this helps!
Matt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:06 PM, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:

Hello! This is my first post here.

I consider starting a banana system. Mostly I am worried about the
fact, that single Serge modules are not available. However, I have some
other concerns:

1. Apart from Serge, Modcan and Cynthia, are there other manufacturers?

2. Are Cynthia modules actually available at the moment?

3. How do you usually handle CV attenuation in a Serge system?

4. New Timbral Oscillator seems to the only audio oscillator with
rectangle. Can it do normal PWM sounds?

5. Are there VCA:s with linear and logarithmic response in banana
format?

Best regards
Jari Jokinen


Re: Considering Serge

2008-11-14 by evetsterueb

With respect to your VCA question:

Regarding Serge, there's an explanation at
http://www.serge-fans.com/wiz_vca_mix.htm

As for the rest there's a Quad linear VCA in the Modcan line. That's
all I'm aware of.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 5. Are there VCA:s with linear and logarithmic response in banana
> > format?
> >
> > Best regards
> > Jari Jokinen

Re: Considering Serge

2008-11-14 by jalmari3

Thank you for your input. I got some mail too. Here are more
questions:

- I couldn't figure out, if a DC coupled VCA with exponential
response is available by Serge? I would need one despite the fact
that Serge envelopes have selectable curves. (Modcan A series VCA:s
are linear. Their B series 13B has lin/expo switches. So does my
Cwejman VCA-2P, excpet that they are labeled "lin/log".)

- Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?

- Regarding PWM, I realize that there are many ways to get a
rectangle waveform from a Serge system. However, one might suspect,
that using comparators and other auxiliary "tricks" might compromise
sound quality. Could it be argued, that for "classic" PWM sound with
good tracking I should rather go for a Modcan A oscillator? It
outputs only 5V peak to peak though. Would that be a drawback?

- Are NTO and PCO the only Serge oscillators with excellent tracking?

It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
to me.

Re: Considering Serge

2008-11-14 by matthew carpenter

Hi,

Yes, blue jacks are DC couple and black jacks are AC coupled.

I have never noticed any degradation in audio quality or tracking using these other methods to generate PWM sounds. It sounds just as good or better than any PWM I've heard. To achieve the best tracking simply use a PCO or NTO for the signal patched to the + input of the NCOM. The NCOM is especially useful for PWM because you can get a simultaneous VC'able sub-octave Pulse with PWM out of the divider's output. The NCOM is one of my favorite modules, for sure!

However, if you want classic PWM sounds without needing to use auxiliary modules, then yes, the Modcan A VCO is good for this. I owned one for awhile and it's a very good oscillator. This will provide your 'classic' hard sync sounds, as well.

The NTO and PCO are the two main Serge oscillators and thus have excellent tracking and stability plus many users can attest to their terrific quality when used in FM patches.

Matt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:23 AM, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:

Thank you for your input. I got some mail too. Here are more
questions:

- I couldn't figure out, if a DC coupled VCA with exponential
response is available by Serge? I would need one despite the fact
that Serge envelopes have selectable curves. (Modcan A series VCA:s
are linear. Their B series 13B has lin/expo switches. So does my
Cwejman VCA-2P, excpet that they are labeled "lin/log".)

- Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?



- Regarding PWM, I realize that there are many ways to get a
rectangle waveform from a Serge system. However, one might suspect,
that using comparators and other auxiliary "tricks" might compromise
sound quality. Could it be argued, that for "classic" PWM sound with
good tracking I should rather go for a Modcan A oscillator? It
outputs only 5V peak to peak though. Would that be a drawback?

- Are NTO and PCO the only Serge oscillators with excellent tracking?

It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
to me.


Re: Considering Serge

2008-11-14 by James R. Coplin

Attachments :

    I don’t see how using a comparator would sacrifice sound quality. PWM is achieved on most oscillator by adding a comparator circuit onto the oscillator anyway. Sound quality is never an issue on the Serge in any event. As far as the NTO and PCO being the only oscillators with excellent tracking, how many do you need? I have a hard time believing that the NTO or PCO are somehow not up to your needs.

    James R. Coplin

    From: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SergeModular@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jalmari3
    Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:23 AM
    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge

    Thank you for your input. I got some mail too. Here are more
    questions:

    - I couldn't figure out, if a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    response is available by Serge? I would need one despite the fact
    that Serge envelopes have selectable curves. (Modcan A series VCA:s
    are linear. Their B series 13B has lin/expo switches. So does my
    Cwejman VCA-2P, excpet that they are labeled "lin/log".)

    - Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?

    - Regarding PWM, I realize that there are many ways to get a
    rectangle waveform from a Serge system. However, one might suspect,
    that using comparators and other auxiliary "tricks" might compromise
    sound quality. Could it be argued, that for "classic" PWM sound with
    good tracking I should rather go for a Modcan A oscillator? It
    outputs only 5V peak to peak though. Would that be a drawback?

    - Are NTO and PCO the only Serge oscillators with excellent tracking?

    It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
    someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
    Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
    I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
    the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
    to me.

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-14 by Bakis Sirros

    few comments:
    have i ever said how AMAZING the Serge NTO and PCO sound when FM'ed? :-)
    i have 9 Serge osc's and thinking of getting even more...
    btw, let me tell you this regarding Serge:
    it will force you do things in a different way. this may be good, or bad, sometimes, depending on what you are after.
    if you are after 'normality' Serge will seem to you a bit difficult... if you are after innovation in sound shaping and rhythmic creation, Serge will seem to you invaluable.
    and if you really want to, in the end, it will make you create GREAT and special sounds!
    it just needs time and devotion to what you do.
    and the PWM, using the NCOM or COM, in the serge, sounds great and with no lesser quality that using a more traditional sync function. it may sound different than the sync in some other osc's but, in no way, this means worse. it means DIFFERENT in a good way!!
    while i use my Serge more and more (and i am using it in EVERY track i make, since i bought my first panels almost a year ago), i keep discovering its special qualities and its 'ways of work'.
    in a world GREAT!
    if you can afford it, go for it.
    Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
    [Doepfer_a100] group owner
    www. parallel - worlds - music. com
    www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
    www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
    www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
    www. DiN. org. uk
    www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
    www. shimarecords. co. uk
    www. rubberrecords. gr
    Athens - Greece

    --- On Fri, 11/14/08, matthew carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...> wrote:
    From: matthew carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...>
    Subject: Re: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge
    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 6:36 PM

    Hi,

    Yes, blue jacks are DC couple and black jacks are AC coupled.

    I have never noticed any degradation in audio quality or tracking using these other methods to generate PWM sounds. It sounds just as good or better than any PWM I've heard. To achieve the best tracking simply use a PCO or NTO for the signal patched to the + input of the NCOM. The NCOM is especially useful for PWM because you can get a simultaneous VC'able sub-octave Pulse with PWM out of the divider's output. The NCOM is one of my favorite modules, for sure!

    However, if you want classic PWM sounds without needing to use auxiliary modules, then yes, the Modcan A VCO is good for this. I owned one for awhile and it's a very good oscillator. This will provide your 'classic' hard sync sounds, as well.

    The NTO and PCO are the two main Serge oscillators and thus have excellent tracking and stability plus many users can attest to their terrific quality when used in FM patches.

    Matt

    On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:23 AM, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@ netikka.fi> wrote:
    Thank you for your input. I got some mail too. Here are more
    questions:

    - I couldn't figure out, if a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    response is available by Serge? I would need one despite the fact
    that Serge envelopes have selectable curves. (Modcan A series VCA:s
    are linear. Their B series 13B has lin/expo switches. So does my
    Cwejman VCA-2P, excpet that they are labeled "lin/log".)

    - Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?


    - Regarding PWM, I realize that there are many ways to get a
    rectangle waveform from a Serge system. However, one might suspect,
    that using comparators and other auxiliary "tricks" might compromise
    sound quality. Could it be argued, that for "classic" PWM sound with
    good tracking I should rather go for a Modcan A oscillator? It
    outputs only 5V peak to peak though. Would that be a drawback?

    - Are NTO and PCO the only Serge oscillators with excellent tracking?

    It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
    someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
    Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
    I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
    the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
    to me.



    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-14 by Bill Sequeira

    in addition to the NTO/PCO oscillators, other modules offer "oscillating" capabilities, like the filters and Quadrature Oscillator, that showcase the multi-functionality of many of the Serge modules.

    The philosophy of design has been to provide modules that, depending on how they are set, can provide different functions depending on the role assigned - examples of these are the SSG/DSG/DTG.

    So when looking at an Animal panel, for example, it would be easy to think that there are only two oscillators, when in practice there could be as many as 4-5 oscillating sources.

    There might be sound quality issues present in pre-STS panels due to uneven production quality, but as James stated so well, the last thing I would be concerned with in a STS Serge is sound quality degradation.



    Cheers -- Bill
    __________________________________________
    Bill Sequeira, PHD






    On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:57 AM, James R. Coplin wrote:

    I don’t see how using a comparator would sacrifice sound quality. PWM is achieved on most oscillator by adding a comparator circuit onto the oscillator anyway. Sound quality is never an issue on the Serge in any event. As far as the NTO and PCO being the only oscillators with excellent tracking, how many do you need? I have a hard time believing that the NTO or PCO are somehow not up to your needs.
    James R. Coplin
    From: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SergeModular@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jalmari3
    Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:23 AM
    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge

    Thank you for your input. I got some mail too. Here are more
    questions:

    - I couldn't figure out, if a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    response is available by Serge? I would need one despite the fact
    that Serge envelopes have selectable curves. (Modcan A series VCA:s
    are linear. Their B series 13B has lin/expo switches. So does my
    Cwejman VCA-2P, excpet that they are labeled "lin/log".)

    - Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?

    - Regarding PWM, I realize that there are many ways to get a
    rectangle waveform from a Serge system. However, one might suspect,
    that using comparators and other auxiliary "tricks" might compromise
    sound quality. Could it be argued, that for "classic" PWM sound with
    good tracking I should rather go for a Modcan A oscillator? It
    outputs only 5V peak to peak though. Would that be a drawback?

    - Are NTO and PCO the only Serge oscillators with excellent tracking?

    It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
    someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
    Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
    I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
    the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
    to me.


    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-14 by Tim J

    Please give some examples to support the statement below (serge forces you to do things differently).

    I have heard this about serge without examples numerous times. I have 2 serge panels and think they are great. That said, I don't think I've ever been forced to do anything 'differently'.

    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com

    btw, let me tell you this regarding Serge:
    it will force you do things in a different way. this may be good, or bad, sometimes, depending on what you are after.

    .


    Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. Sign up today.

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-14 by Bakis Sirros

    well, its not something you can easily describe... you mostly 'feel' it, after you hear your sound creations, a bit more objectively... (at least, this is how i perceive it...).
    for example, in the Serge, many of the 'envelopes' can cycle, this may 'force' you to use a self-cycling element in your sound more often than when using a more 'conventional' modular...
    plus, the great quality of the serge osc's may 'force' you to use less filtering and more linear FM, waveshaping, or wave multiplying in shaping your sounds...

    Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
    [Doepfer_a100] group owner
    www. parallel - worlds - music. com
    www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
    www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
    www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
    www. DiN. org. uk
    www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
    www. shimarecords. co. uk
    www. rubberrecords. gr
    Athens - Greece

    --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Tim J <bob_aloha@...> wrote:
    From: Tim J <bob_aloha@...>
    Subject: RE: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge
    To: sergemodular@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 8:35 PM

    Please give some examples to support the statement below (serge forces you to do things differently) .

    I have heard this about serge without examples numerous times. I have 2 serge panels and think they are great. That said, I don't think I've ever been forced to do anything 'differently' .

    To: SergeModular@ yahoogroups. com

    btw, let me tell you this regarding Serge:
    it will force you do things in a different way. this may be good, or bad, sometimes, depending on what you are after.

    .


    Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. Sign up today.

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-14 by Steve Ridley

    > - Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?


    Not quite. Black means a bipolar signal - usually audio - which
    goes both positive and negative. Some are AC coupled, but not
    all. Blue are (usually) positive control voltages and are DC coupled.


    > It is good to hear, that another banana system might come out. I wish
    > someone would make Serge-like 4U individual modules: As I am used to
    > Eurorack, 6U Modcan and Cynthia modules seem sexy but too big. Also,
    > I simply like to change and reconfigure my modules. That is why
    > the "Serge philosophy" of full or half panels doesn't seem appealing
    > to me.


    Have you looked at Bananalogue? They seem to be on hold at the moment,
    but they do (did) a couple of Serge modules in 3U...



    Steve

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by lars_arnwald

    Hello,
    Following the discussion and checking out the EGRES VCA-Mixer page
    this cught my interest:
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    >>
    Dual Mixer (MIX)
    Simple, quiet, clean, to the point...
    Wizardry: As with the Dual Processor, you can use this module to
    realize greater than unity gain. Plug your incoming audio into one
    input, then multiple that banana plug into the next input. You can
    also get some subtle signal distortion this way.
    Yes, you can play feedback tricks with this module too, to create a
    shoddy distorted oscillator.
    >>
    I love that "shoddy distorted oscillator" expression.
    Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to experiment with this right
    now. Is the last "Yes, you can play feedback tricks with this module
    too" paragraph simply implying that one feeds the output of the second
    mixer stage back into the first one's input, and/or is there some
    feeding back into the mod input(s) of the original audio's sound
    generation elements involved?
    Lars

    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "evetsterueb" <synth@...> wrote:
    >
    > With respect to your VCA question:
    >
    > Regarding Serge, there's an explanation at
    > http://www.serge-fans.com/wiz_vca_mix.htm
    >
    > As for the rest there's a Quad linear VCA in the Modcan line. That's
    > all I'm aware of.
    >
    > > > 5. Are there VCA:s with linear and logarithmic response in banana
    > > > format?
    > > >
    > > > Best regards
    > > > Jari Jokinen
    >

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by jalmari3

    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, Steve Ridley <spr@...> wrote:
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    >
    > > - Are the blue jacks DC coupled and black jacks AC coupled?
    >
    > Not quite. Black means a bipolar signal - usually audio - which
    > goes both positive and negative. Some are AC coupled, but not
    > all. Blue are (usually) positive control voltages and are DC
    > coupled.

    I just found the FAQ:
    "Red is used for trigger signals, Blue for DC coupled signals, Black
    for AC coupled signals, and purple is used for sync."

    Did you mean, that blue inputs do (usually) ignore negative portion
    of the signal? That would be strange, since for example Precision
    VCO has only one black input (and one black output)...


    > Have you looked at Bananalogue? They seem to be on hold at the
    > moment, but they do (did) a couple of Serge modules in 3U...

    I have their Eurorack VCS, which I really like.

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by jalmari3

    Questions and observations:

    Can anyone confirm, if DC coupled VCA with exponential response is
    available from Serge?

    There is no dedicated ring modulator in M-class. Are true ring
    modulator sounds possible by other means?

    Mayhem is the only M-class module with noise.

    There is a mistake at serge-fans page. M-Class Dual Slope and Quad
    Slope are identical in the pictures:
    http://www.serge-fans.com/m-class-dual-slope.cfm
    http://www.serge-fans.com/m-class-quad-slope.cfm

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by matthew carpenter

    The Wave Processor M-odule has a Ring Modular.

    The Dual Slope graphic should show two Dual Slope Clock Generators not two Dual Universal Slope Generators.

    There is a DC coupled VCA on the Mayhem and Bi-Filter M-odules and all Active Processors work as DC coupled VCAs. The ACPR is linear unless you patch it in a feedback loop, I think. I will try this to be sure. Not sure about the Mayhem M-od's VCA, whether it's linear or exp. Note you can get exponential responses from all slope producing function cells by patching their output into their VC IN.

    Matt
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    On 11/15/08, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:

    Questions and observations:

    Can anyone confirm, if DC coupled VCA with exponential response is
    available from Serge?

    There is no dedicated ring modulator in M-class. Are true ring
    modulator sounds possible by other means?

    Mayhem is the only M-class module with noise.

    There is a mistake at serge-fans page. M-Class Dual Slope and Quad
    Slope are identical in the pictures:
    http://www.serge-fans.com/m-class-dual-slope.cfm
    http://www.serge-fans.com/m-class-quad-slope.cfm


    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by Skot Wiedmann

    --- On Sat, 11/15/08, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    >Can anyone confirm, if DC coupled VCA with exponential response is
    >available from Serge?

    Maybe if you describe what you are trying to achieve we can be of more help. There are many unexpected ways of achieving the same or similar results as other systems, often with modules that are not dedicated to that one function.

    >There is no dedicated ring modulator in M-class. Are true ring
    >modulator sounds possible by other means?

    The wave processor contains a dedicated ring modulator. One with some really useful features that allow you to shape your sound in various voltage controlled ways. Furthermore, creating sum and difference frequencies of a ring modulated sound are possible with other modules such as the frequency shifter and xfader. If you are trying to make inharmonic combinations of tones, almost every module in the system can be used in that way, it just takes some experimentation. When experimenting, I recommend letting go of your concept of "true ring modulator sounds" and expolore the endless possibilities of other unique and interesting sounds possible with the system.

    >Mayhem is the only M-class module with noise.

    The choice to include a dedicated noise output in only one M-class panel seems to be very wise. There is very little advantage to having lots of white noise sources in a small system. Again, let go of the idea that noise sounds can only come from a noise output, and explore the fantastic noise sounds that can be achieved by patching together other modules. These are much more interesting to me, and I think you will agree. Have fun!

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by jalmari3

    Oops! I missed the Wave Processor.


    One application where I think I need a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    response is this: A non voltage controllable CV is fed simultaneously
    to VCA CV input and signal input. This will make sort of tracking
    generator.

    Another consideration: If one CV is simultaneously controlling a VCA
    and (say) filter cutoff, changing VCA response will change correlation
    between amplitude and filter cutoff. Interestingly enough, in Modcan A
    system there seem to be only linear response VCA:s.

    Yet one question: Are the Serge linear response VCA:s as
    uncompromisedly good for audio, as those with exponential response (not
    counting AC/DC-coupling issues)?


    Again thank you for your input!

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-15 by sprgroups@o2.co.uk

    > I just found the FAQ:
    > "Red is used for trigger signals, Blue for DC coupled signals,
    Black
    > for AC coupled signals, and purple is used for sync."


    That is inaccurate. The best explanation I've seen was in the old
    SMMS owners guide. Unfortunately that seems to have disappeared
    from Darrel Johanssen's site.

    The colour is not about AC/DC coupling, it is about function. Blue
    for
    CV, black for audio and bipolar control signals. Some black sockets
    are AC coupled (eg most audio inputs), some are not (most audio
    outputs, QUO output etc).


    > Did you mean, that blue inputs do (usually) ignore negative portion
    > of the signal? That would be strange, since for example Precision
    > VCO has only one black input (and one black output)...


    Sometimes. The 0 to +5v CV range is generally true for CV outs.
    Most CV inputs work over a wider range and sometimes it depends
    on the setting of the associated pot.


    All the panels I have used are pre 2001 - but I'm not aware that the
    colour system has changed since then...


    Steve

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-22 by Matt Carpenter

    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "jalmari3" <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    >
    > Oops! I missed the Wave Processor.
    >
    >
    > One application where I think I need a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    > response is this: A non voltage controllable CV is fed > system
    there seem to be only linear response VCA:s.
    >

    The VCAs in the UAP and DCSM are exponential response type.

    > Yet one question: Are the Serge linear response VCA:s as
    > uncompromisedly good for audio, as those with exponential response (not
    > counting AC/DC-coupling issues)?
    >

    Yes, they are uncompromisingly good!

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-22 by Bakis Sirros

    of course they sound good for sure!! :-)

    Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
    [Doepfer_a100] group owner
    www. parallel - worlds - music. com
    www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
    www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
    www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
    www. DiN. org. uk
    www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
    www. shimarecords. co. uk
    www. rubberrecords. gr
    Athens - Greece
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    --- On Sat, 11/22/08, Matt Carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...> wrote:
    From: Matt Carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...>
    Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge
    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:20 PM

    --- In SergeModular@ yahoogroups. com, "jalmari3" <jari.jokinen@ ...> wrote:
    >
    > Oops! I missed the Wave Processor.
    >
    >
    > One application where I think I need a DC coupled VCA with exponential
    > response is this: A non voltage controllable CV is fed > system
    there seem to be only linear response VCA:s.
    >

    The VCAs in the UAP and DCSM are exponential response type.

    > Yet one question: Are the Serge linear response VCA:s as
    > uncompromisedly good for audio, as those with exponential response (not
    > counting AC/DC-coupling issues)?
    >

    Yes, they are uncompromisingly good!


    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-22 by jalmari3

    Sorry, I haven't found documentation, so more questions:

    - Can Serge oscillators and filters handle CV:s in range -10/+10V at
    their 1V/oct inputs?

    - What are the voltage ranges of mixers and VCA:s?

    - What are the response curves of the Dual VCA unit found in the M-
    Class Bi-Filter module?

    - Can I make re-triggerable envelopes with Dual Transient Generator,
    Dual Universal Slope Generator or Smooth and Stepped Generator?

    - What does the Scaling Buffer do? Bipolar level adjust and offset?

    Thanks for reading
    Jari Jokinen

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-22 by Skot Wiedmann

    No documentation needed, just a simple call to Rex: (262) 367-3030.
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    --- On Sat, 11/22/08, jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:
    From: jalmari3 <jari.jokinen@...>
    Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Considering Serge
    To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 12:19 PM

    Sorry, I haven't found documentation, so more questions:

    - Can Serge oscillators and filters handle CV:s in range -10/+10V at
    their 1V/oct inputs?

    - What are the voltage ranges of mixers and VCA:s?

    - What are the response curves of the Dual VCA unit found in the M-
    Class Bi-Filter module?

    - Can I make re-triggerable envelopes with Dual Transient Generator,
    Dual Universal Slope Generator or Smooth and Stepped Generator?

    - What does the Scaling Buffer do? Bipolar level adjust and offset?

    Thanks for reading
    Jari Jokinen


    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-24 by jalmari3

    I had some fun with image editing software and designed a fantasy
    two panel Serge system suitable for my needs. If interested, you can
    look it here:
    http://www.esnips.com/doc/2a2aa8ea-04bb-4c23-836b-
    b484b11a3644/Serge_8U_dream_system

    Some module modification ideas:
    - Ring modulator has only six jacks/knobs instead of the usual seven.
    An AC/DC-coupling switch could be added to enable CV processing.
    - The Random Source has empty space. This could be used for a manual
    gate push putton. Maybe the function is already somehow implemented
    with the S/H trigger button.

    I have decided not to get a Serge system yet. It seems that I can't
    make a suitable (for me) and yet compact combination from the stock
    panels.


    Again, thanks for your input
    Jari Jokinen

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-24 by jalmari3

    Couldn't get the link fixed with Yahoo Rich-Text Editor. This link
    should work, but it is wrapped.
    http://www.esnips.com/doc/b944d3a5-e7d7-46b1-8888-
    d71f2cb4d656/Serge_8U_dream_system

    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "jalmari3" <jari.jokinen@...>
    wrote:
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    >
    > I had some fun with image editing software and designed a fantasy
    > two panel Serge system suitable for my needs. If interested, you
    can
    > look it here:
    > http://www.esnips.com/doc/2a2aa8ea-04bb-4c23-836b-
    > b484b11a3644/Serge_8U_dream_system
    >
    > Some module modification ideas:
    > - Ring modulator has only six jacks/knobs instead of the usual
    seven.
    > An AC/DC-coupling switch could be added to enable CV processing.
    > - The Random Source has empty space. This could be used for a
    manual
    > gate push putton. Maybe the function is already somehow implemented
    > with the S/H trigger button.
    >
    > I have decided not to get a Serge system yet. It seems that I can't
    > make a suitable (for me) and yet compact combination from the stock
    > panels.
    >
    >
    > Again, thanks for your input
    > Jari Jokinen
    >

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-24 by jalmari3

    Maybe the link doesn't get wrapped now.

    Serge_8U_dream_system


    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "jalmari3" <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:
    >
    > I had some fun with image editing software and designed a fantasy
    > two panel Serge system suitable for my needs. If interested, you can
    > look it here:
    > http://www.esnips.com/doc/2a2aa8ea-04bb-4c23-836b-
    > b484b11a3644/Serge_8U_dream_system
    >
    > Some module modification ideas:
    > - Ring modulator has only six jacks/knobs instead of the usual seven.
    > An AC/DC-coupling switch could be added to enable CV processing.
    > - The Random Source has empty space. This could be used for a manual
    > gate push putton. Maybe the function is already somehow implemented
    > with the S/H trigger button.
    >
    > I have decided not to get a Serge system yet. It seems that I can't
    > make a suitable (for me) and yet compact combination from the stock
    > panels.
    >
    >
    > Again, thanks for your input
    > Jari Jokinen
    >

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-24 by kkonkkrete

    Well that certainly does look like a great system. I also miss not
    having custom panels, but I also respect Rex for his vision of the
    units in a Serge system being somewhat larger that typical modular
    modules. My biggest gripe with the M-odule concept though is the loss
    of space. That black strip in the middle sucks up a whole PCO's worth
    of space! Gimme density (not a blue LED and a badly proportioned
    Penrose triangle).

    I wish the STS folks would come up with a Buchla form-factor case for
    9 M-odules in three rows (or 3 regular panels + 3 M-odules), which
    folds up neatly, but with enough space to keep it patched while in
    storage / transport, and which has a single PSU that plugs straight
    into the case via a kettle cable. Sorry, off topic, but you got me
    started with your daydreamed custom job....
    Show quoted textHide quoted text
    --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "jalmari3" <jari.jokinen@...> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Ok. Let's try to get the link to work once more! Just for the sake of
    > it.
    > Serge_8U_dream_system
    >
    <http://www.esnips.com/doc/b944d3a5-e7d7-46b1-8888-d71f2cb4d656/Serge_8U\
    > _dream_system>
    >

    Re: Considering Serge

    2008-11-24 by John P

    - actually, if you use the trigger input as an output and hit the
    trigger pushbutton, it works fine.
    Mine is 10 years old. Ask Rex if this has been changed lately.

    jalmari3 wrote:
    The Random Source has empty space. This could be used for a manual
    gate push putton. Maybe the function is already somehow implemented
    with the S/H trigger button.

    Move to quarantaine

    This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.