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ETC and Sonica

ETC and Sonica

2001-05-04 by Steve Ridley

A couple more historic questions for you all.

First - I've seen a schematic of what claims to be an early
Serge utility oscillator, but I've never seen a module like it
in any Serge modular. The schematic was labelled ETC
Oscillator, although that might not be the name on the
module. It had CV in with reversible attenuator, sync in,
ten turn frequency pot, rotary range switch and square,
triangle and sine outputs. The schematic looked very
like other easly Serge ones, both in style and in some of
the circuit detail, but the rotary switch and ten turn pot are
very un-Serge. Dous anyone know anything about this?

Second - I noticed some pictures of the Sonica on the
Audities site. This was the strange lute-like instrument
designed by Frank Eventoff and Serge Tcherepnin and
refered to in US patent 4,306,480 (the one which also
had the waveshaper and phaser circuits). Does anyone
have any further info on these? How many were built?
Has anyone on the list tried one?

Thanks



Steve Ridley

comdyna

2001-05-04 by =?iso-8859-1?q?=20?= <r_a_quirk@...>

Hi,
no reply so far from Dan.

I don't want to seem like I'm always asking off-topic
questions.

but have people found that since they've had a modular
taht they use their other synths far less, esp
polyphonic ones? I got a XTk last year, but I tend to
use my Fenix for everything. If I lived on the
mainland I'd probably have had a CS-80 instead, but
you really can't get any work done on an island this
small - although there is a really inventive guitar
maker here, a mix of telecaster & & lapsteel guitar.
Another question - do any of the serge / modular users
on this list also play other instruments? I use
guitar (electric/acoustic), organ, bass (electric),
and circuit-bent instruments.

regards,
Richard

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Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Sebastian Kuehnl

Hi Richard et al,

there is no need to send Comdyna specific requests to Dan Slater. Ray Spiess
has asked him for advice on details during the GP-10S development because he
is not experienced with musical applications himself; he got interested by a
request in autumn 2000, "for the fun of it if nothing else". Dan himself had
not been asked about analog computers before that in about a year. He is yet
to receive the final GP-10S brochure too, as are some people on this list.

What is currently known about the GP-10S Richard mentioned in his previous
email. The difference between the GP-10 line and the GP-6 is that the latter
is for general purposes and is too wide to be rackmounted, while the other
units are narrower in usage focus (musical functions in this case), in size
(for 19 inch racks) and in price ("approximately $1500 depending on the
equipment configuration", so the S is on the cheap side). I would suggest
that anyone interested in using either of them reads the general GP-6 info
and instruction on the Comdyna webpage first.

Kind regards,
Sebastian Kuehnl


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <r_a_quirk@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:48 PM
Subject: [SergeModular] comdyna


: Hi,
: no reply so far from Dan.
:
: I don't want to seem like I'm always asking off-topic
: questions.
:
: but have people found that since they've had a modular
: taht they use their other synths far less, esp
: polyphonic ones? I got a XTk last year, but I tend to
: use my Fenix for everything. If I lived on the
: mainland I'd probably have had a CS-80 instead, but
: you really can't get any work done on an island this
: small - although there is a really inventive guitar
: maker here, a mix of telecaster & & lapsteel guitar.
: Another question - do any of the serge / modular users
: on this list also play other instruments? I use
: guitar (electric/acoustic), organ, bass (electric),
: and circuit-bent instruments.
:
: regards,
: Richard
:
: ____________________________________________________________
: Do You Yahoo!?
: Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
: or your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
:
: To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
: SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
:
: Keep on Patchin'!
:
:
: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
:


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Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Microtonal

I just received my GP-10S brochure from Ray. The patch panel is very simlar
to the GP-6 with 4 summer-integrators, 4 summing mixers, 2 multipliers,
DC/ground patch points, and potentiometer patch points. It also has a
"trunk line" which I'm guessing might be a multiple.

The right side of the panel is different. There are no digital voltmeter or
run mode controls, just 12 knobs/potentiometers, 8 of which are configured
as voltage dividers and 4 which are connected to DC voltages with just the
variable leg connected to the patch panel for setting "Initial Conditions",
or DC bias in synthesizer language.

The built in options to the GP-10S are pretty limited, just more accurate
multipliers or an integrating capacitor group that gives greater time
scales. However, there are also banana plug modules that look interesting,
such as comparator feedback elements, absolute value (rectifier) module,
even a VCO, though for the price ($95) I would guess it is a simple
Hertz/octave type.

Another interesting accessory available as a rack mount module is a variable
diode function generator.

I have emailed Ray Speiss to ask if it's okay for me to scan and post this
to the Yahoo files site. I'll post a message to the group as soon as I find
out.

John Loffink
microtonal@...

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Sebastian Kuehnl" <skuehnl@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [SergeModular] comdyna


> Hi Richard et al,
>
> there is no need to send Comdyna specific requests to Dan Slater. Ray
Spiess
> has asked him for advice on details during the GP-10S development because
he
> is not experienced with musical applications himself; he got interested by
a
> request in autumn 2000, "for the fun of it if nothing else". Dan himself
had
> not been asked about analog computers before that in about a year. He is
yet
> to receive the final GP-10S brochure too, as are some people on this list.
>
> What is currently known about the GP-10S Richard mentioned in his previous
> email. The difference between the GP-10 line and the GP-6 is that the
latter
> is for general purposes and is too wide to be rackmounted, while the other
> units are narrower in usage focus (musical functions in this case), in
size
> (for 19 inch racks) and in price ("approximately $1500 depending on the
> equipment configuration", so the S is on the cheap side). I would suggest
> that anyone interested in using either of them reads the general GP-6 info
> and instruction on the Comdyna webpage first.
>
> Kind regards,
> Sebastian Kuehnl
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <r_a_quirk@...>
> To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:48 PM
> Subject: [SergeModular] comdyna
>
>
> : Hi,
> : no reply so far from Dan.
> :
> : I don't want to seem like I'm always asking off-topic
> : questions.
> :
> : but have people found that since they've had a modular
> : taht they use their other synths far less, esp
> : polyphonic ones? I got a XTk last year, but I tend to
> : use my Fenix for everything. If I lived on the
> : mainland I'd probably have had a CS-80 instead, but
> : you really can't get any work done on an island this
> : small - although there is a really inventive guitar
> : maker here, a mix of telecaster & & lapsteel guitar.
> : Another question - do any of the serge / modular users
> : on this list also play other instruments? I use
> : guitar (electric/acoustic), organ, bass (electric),
> : and circuit-bent instruments.
> :
> : regards,
> : Richard
> :
> : ____________________________________________________________
> : Do You Yahoo!?
> : Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
> : or your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
> :
> : To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> : SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> :
> : Keep on Patchin'!
> :
> :
> : Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> :
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by C. Whitten

>I would suggest
> that anyone interested in using either of them reads the general GP-6 info
> and instruction on the Comdyna webpage first.
I'm sure all of us who are interested have already done so.
As far as the "instruction" goes here is an example:

>As integrators, output voltages equal the inverted
>integral of the sum of the input voltages (plus/minus the initial condition)
>where the integration rate is the reciprocal of the R*C
>time constant.
I haven't got a *clue* what that is all about. Maybe you think that the
GP10S is unsuitable for those who haven't had a background in the sciences.

> there is no need to send Comdyna specific requests to Dan Slater. Ray Spiess
> has asked him for advice on details during the GP-10S development because he
> is not experienced with musical applications himself;
Therefore Dan is presumably in a better position to sell us the concept of
analog computing than Comdyna themselves. The analog computing examples on
Dan Slater's website seem (at least to me) to be primarily 'chaos' based.
There has been some mention of sequencing, state variable filters etc..
all I'm asking is for some more info on that side of the computer.

>price ("approximately $1500 depending on the
> equipment configuration", so the S is on the cheap side).
I believe we've already been quoted $950.

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Sebastian Kuehnl

Hi John,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Microtonal" <microtonal@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [SergeModular] comdyna

: The built in options to the GP-10S are pretty limited, just more accurate
: multipliers or an integrating capacitor group that gives greater time
: scales. However, there are also banana plug modules that look
interesting,
: such as comparator feedback elements, absolute value (rectifier) module,
: even a VCO, though for the price ($95) I would guess it is a simple
: Hertz/octave type.

That would be volt/ Hz probably :) Thanks for the info; it might take some
time until stuff arrives in Germany. Are you saying the machine can be
ordered in different versions/ with stock modifications, or with additional
19" modules?

Sebastian


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Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Sebastian Kuehnl

Hi Chris,

: >As integrators, output voltages equal the inverted
: >integral of the sum of the input voltages (plus/minus the initial
condition)
: >where the integration rate is the reciprocal of the R*C
: >time constant.
: I haven't got a *clue* what that is all about. Maybe you think that the
: GP10S is unsuitable for those who haven't had a background in the
sciences.

I believe Ray's already been quoted on that point in Richard's post.

Maybe you could look at it this way: a 2600 is a quickly configurable yet
modular instrument if you need it. A Wiard or CMS system has less presets
but still allows rather rapid programming. Most modulars form the next
stage: no presets, standardized functionality (like ADSR envelopes). A Serge
is slower. Things are much more broken up, what with several different
independent modules for binary and complex waveshaping, slew processing etc.
An analog computer is even "slower": a basic VCO wants to be patched up as
well as other functions which may be harder to understand from a common
musician's view but may essentially be no more complex than a VCO which one
is used to buying as a readymade module.

: > there is no need to send Comdyna specific requests to Dan Slater. Ray
Spiess
: > has asked him for advice on details during the GP-10S development
because he
: > is not experienced with musical applications himself;
: Therefore Dan is presumably in a better position to sell us the concept of
: analog computing than Comdyna themselves.

That is certainly correct as he is a true bank of knowledge but I only spoke
of Comdyna specific requests and he does not know the final GP-10S any
better than you and me right now..

: The analog computing examples on
: Dan Slater's website seem (at least to me) to be primarily 'chaos' based.
: There has been some mention of sequencing, state variable filters etc..
: all I'm asking is for some more info on that side of the computer.
:
: >price ("approximately $1500 depending on the
: > equipment configuration", so the S is on the cheap side).
: I believe we've already been quoted $950.

Yeah, that's why the GP-10S is on the cheap side of the GP-10 line :)

Best regards,
Sebastian Kuehnl


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Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by C. Whitten

> An analog computer is even "slower": which may be harder to understand from a
common
> musician's view but may essentially be no more complex than a VCO which one
> is used to buying as a readymade module.

I'm beginning to think again!!

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Chris Randall

> Maybe you could look at it this way: a 2600 is a quickly configurable yet
> modular instrument if you need it. A Wiard or CMS system has less presets
> but still allows rather rapid programming. Most modulars form the next
> stage: no presets, standardized functionality (like ADSR envelopes). A
Serge
> is slower. Things are much more broken up, what with several different
> independent modules for binary and complex waveshaping, slew processing
etc.
> An analog computer is even "slower": a basic VCO wants to be patched up as
> well as other functions which may be harder to understand from a common
> musician's view but may essentially be no more complex than a VCO which
one
> is used to buying as a readymade module.


Can I work under the assumption that an analog computer is no different from
a digital computer, inasmuch as you are provided with a certain number of
elements, which are capable of certain types of processes, and how you wire
them up ("program," for want of a better term) determines the net result?

In looking at the GP-6 (and a GP-8, I think it was, that went on eBay a
while back) I notice that while many elements are provided, their uses
aren't as obvious as a modular, with which we are all familiar. We all know
what a VCO does, but maybe not why it does it. It would seem that the GP-10S
is capable of _being_ a VCO, as long as you know the why. It's also capable
of being many other things, as long as you know the processes that are
involved in creating those things. That being the case, I would think
something like this could only be good, as long as you took the time to
learn what was possible.

-Chris Randall

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Microtonal

> : even a VCO, though for the price ($95) I would guess it is a simple
> : Hertz/octave type.
>
> That would be volt/ Hz probably :)

Right.

> Thanks for the info; it might take some
> time until stuff arrives in Germany. Are you saying the machine can be
> ordered in different versions/ with stock modifications, or with
additional
> 19" modules?
>

It can be ordered with different precision multipliers or with different
timescale capacitors. The diode function generator is an entirely separate
unit. I assume the banana plug modules just plug into the front, so they
could be bought separately.

John Loffink
microtonal@...

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Microtonal

Well, I don't know if I buy the analogy that a Serge is "slower" than a
2600. The Serge has a lot of functionality hidden behind the front panels
instead of just the basic circuits. For instance, the S/H Source output on
the Noise Source module. This is a frequency modulated sawtooth wave that's
perfect for getting a defined range S&H output. Using straight noise to S&H
has it's own problems - no defined amplitude range unless you clip the
signal, then it's no longer random. Yet every other modular uses that
method. There are many other examples that one could cite.

John Loffink
microtonal@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Maybe you could look at it this way: a 2600 is a quickly configurable yet
> modular instrument if you need it. A Wiard or CMS system has less presets
> but still allows rather rapid programming. Most modulars form the next
> stage: no presets, standardized functionality (like ADSR envelopes). A
Serge
> is slower. Things are much more broken up, what with several different
> independent modules for binary and complex waveshaping, slew processing
etc.
> An analog computer is even "slower": a basic VCO wants to be patched up as
> well as other functions which may be harder to understand from a common
> musician's view but may essentially be no more complex than a VCO which
one
> is used to buying as a readymade module.
>
>

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by Microtonal

> In looking at the GP-6 (and a GP-8, I think it was, that went on eBay a
> while back) I notice that while many elements are provided, their uses
> aren't as obvious as a modular, with which we are all familiar. We all
know
> what a VCO does, but maybe not why it does it. It would seem that the
GP-10S
> is capable of _being_ a VCO, as long as you know the why. It's also
capable
> of being many other things, as long as you know the processes that are
> involved in creating those things. That being the case, I would think
> something like this could only be good, as long as you took the time to
> learn what was possible.
>

It would be nearly impossible to make a VCO or VCF out of the GP-6 or
GP-10S. There are no Operational Transcondunctance Amplifiers, which form
the basis of those circuits. You could make a linear VCA using the
multipliers. Let's see if I can clear up some of the analog computer
nomenclature, as best I understand it.

GP-10S
4 ea. Summer-Integrator Amplifiers = One pole low pass filters, however,
these are more complex as it is possible to switch the input to the
integrator. There also seems to be a switch controlled hold function, or
sample & hold, but this is not clear. So it seems to be a combination
analog switch, one pole filter and sample and hold.
4 ea. Summer-High Gain Operational Amplifiers = Simple mixing amps. It's
not clear if these have a built in feedback resistor, if not then they could
be used as inverting comparators also.
8 ea. Coefficient Potentiometers = Pots configured as voltage dividers, one
leg is tied to ground
4 ea. Initial Condition Potentiometers = Pots tied to + or - DC bias source
for DC biasing a node
8 ea. General Purpose Trunk Lines = I''m guessing that these are multiples
1 ea. Precision +/-10V Reference = self explanatory, DC bias source

Unfortunately, the 2 ea. multipliers on the front panel seem to be an
option. These are ring modulators.

So what could you use it for?

Mixer
Potentiometer controlled filter bank (4 poles)
Potentiometer controlled state variable filter
Potentiometer controlled oscillator
Ring Modulator (with multiplier option)
Linear VCA (with multiplier option)

Not too exciting, huh? But here's some other things I _think_ you could do
with it.

Nonlinear filter/waveshaper
Multisegment envelope generator
Nonlinear control voltage processor
Complex control voltage generator
Multisegment waveform oscillator
Nonstandard filter with voltage controlled resonance (with optional
multiplier)

If you throw in the banana plug modules, then a lot more possibilities are
given. You just have to acquire a new way of thinking, just like when you
first touched a Serge Modular.

John Loffink
microtonal@...

Re: comdyna

2001-05-05 by DarkStr717@aol.com

In a message dated 5/5/01 11:44:16 AM, r_a_quirk@... writes:

<< do any of the serge / modular users
on this list also play other instruments?

I also have found that i hardly ever use my other keys or black boxes either
for that matter, as much anymore. The Serge is just so rewarding. My main use
for the other stuff is reall for when i play shows with Dave Fulton & Paul
Ellis. The next show we do i will be draggin' a 4 panel system with me to
increase the randomity factor.
I'm a guitar player of about 40 years....... hahah.... now that i think
about it, 40 years almost to the day. Acoustic and electric... a little pedal
steel, bass, dobro... the usual stuff

Re: ETC and Sonica

2001-05-06 by barry_michael@enron.net

Steve,
Your description of this oscillator sounds exactly like the master
oscillator in an old EML Synth package I used to own - It was called
the Electrocomp 200 - In the top left corner was this oscillator with
a Big knob - 10 turn pot - a rotary switch was used to switch
octaves, and it put out simultaneous square, sine, and triangle
waveforms. There is a photo of this system at synthmuseum.com. - just
rang a bell.

BarryM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In SergeModular@y..., "Steve Ridley" <spr@s...> wrote:
>
> A couple more historic questions for you all.
>
> First - I've seen a schematic of what claims to be an early
> Serge utility oscillator, but I've never seen a module like it
> in any Serge modular. The schematic was labelled ETC
> Oscillator, although that might not be the name on the
> module. It had CV in with reversible attenuator, sync in,
> ten turn frequency pot, rotary range switch and square,
> triangle and sine outputs. The schematic looked very
> like other easly Serge ones, both in style and in some of
> the circuit detail, but the rotary switch and ten turn pot are
> very un-Serge. Dous anyone know anything about this?
>
> Second - I noticed some pictures of the Sonica on the
> Audities site. This was the strange lute-like instrument
> designed by Frank Eventoff and Serge Tcherepnin and
> refered to in US patent 4,306,480 (the one which also
> had the waveshaper and phaser circuits). Does anyone
> have any further info on these? How many were built?
> Has anyone on the list tried one?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Steve Ridley

Re: comdyna

2001-05-06 by barry_michael@enron.net

Richard,
I play other instruments aside from or rather beside of (or whatever)
the Serge - piano, acoustic guitar, acoustic & electric basses,
conga, barimbou - all of these both Serged and Un-Serged.

BarryM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In SergeModular@y..., <r_a_quirk@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
> no reply so far from Dan.
>
> I don't want to seem like I'm always asking off-topic
> questions.
>
> but have people found that since they've had a modular
> taht they use their other synths far less, esp
> polyphonic ones? I got a XTk last year, but I tend to
> use my Fenix for everything. If I lived on the
> mainland I'd probably have had a CS-80 instead, but
> you really can't get any work done on an island this
> small - although there is a really inventive guitar
> maker here, a mix of telecaster & & lapsteel guitar.
> Another question - do any of the serge / modular users
> on this list also play other instruments? I use
> guitar (electric/acoustic), organ, bass (electric),
> and circuit-bent instruments.
>
> regards,
> Richard
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
> or your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

Comdyna info from Mr. Slater

2001-05-06 by =?iso-8859-1?q?=20?= <r_a_quirk@...>

Hi,

Dan's email is pretty complete, and just about answers
all of our questions. Enjoy!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: Dan Slater <dslater@...>
>Reply-To: dslater@...
>To: Richard Quirk <r_quirk@...>
>Subject: Re: Comdyna GP-10S
>Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:27:38 -0700
>
>Hi Richard;
>
>Sorry for the delay in replying. I had a very busy
week
>
>Richard Quirk wrote:
>
> > Hello again,
> >
> > I posted a message to a Serge newsgroup on Yahoo
asking if anyone had used or owned any Comdyna
analogue computers. There was quite a bit of interest
so I directed them towards your website and told them
what I'd been told in letters from Ray at Comdyna.
> >
I have been asked to ask you if you wouldn't mind
explaining what the GP-10S can do (i.e. will it do the
functions as described in the analogue computers page
on your website), and how it can be used for musical
purposes - & I will post this to the newsgroup (or you
can join it yourself [SergeModular@yahoogroups.com]).
The people on the website, like myself, don't have any
great knowledge of maths, but there are quite a few
that are very interested in buying a GP-10S if it can
lead to new musical horizons without too much
difficulty. Hopefully this makes sense.
>
Although I talked with Ray a number of times about the
GP10s I don't know its exact final configuration and
specifications. I believe that it is a scaled down
version of the GP10 with 2 rather than 4 integration
ranges (ie., 2 vs 4 capacitors) for each integrator
and it uses somewhat less expensive integration
capacitors. I believe that the GP10s has 8 coefficient
potentiometers (attenuators), 4 initial condition
potentiometers, 4 integrators, 4 summers and 8 trunk
lines. Two multipliers can be added as an extra cost
option.
>
Analog computers were originally designed to solve
differential equations. Virtually all analog computers
include 3 basic functions, integrators, summers
and coefficient potentiometers.
>
Integrator -- The integrator forms a time integral of
a voltage. It is implemented using capacitor feedback
with an operational amplifier. The integrator stages
can alternately be used as simple summing stages.
>
An electronic switch within the integrator allows the
integrator to be electronically switched between a run
state, hold state and reset state. When set to the run
state, the integrator integrates the input signal. The
hold state freezes the signal, similar to a sample and
hold. The reset mode switches the integrator into an
initial condition set mode. Associated with each
integrator is an initial condition set potentiometer.
This used to set the integrator output voltage prior
to the start of an integration. Comdyna uses a sort of
strange set of negative voltage levels to control the
integrator mode. If you want to use the run/hold/reset
capability with the GP10s you will have to produce the
mode control signal externally. A second control
signal can be used to select between the two
capacitors. This signal also would have to be provided
externally.
>
Summer -- A summing amplifier adds together several
voltages and changes the sign. The summing amplifier
is implemented as an inverting operational amplifier
circuit with multiple inputs and resistive feedback.
The GP10s has 4 of these with varying numbers of
inputs.
>
Coefficient potentiometer -- Coefficient
potentiometers multiply a voltage by a fixed value
between 0 and 1. They are just a potentiometer setup
as a voltage divider. For scientific applications,
coefficient potentiometers need to be set precisely.
Most analog computers include a switching network so
that the potentiometer multiplication factor (with
circuit loading) can be measured directly on a digital
volt meter (DVM). I think that the GP10s internally
has
this switching capability although an external meter
and control switch would be needed.
>
Trunk lines -- There are 8 lines that go to the rear
panel as a convenience. You can use these as a
convenient way of bringing inputs and outputs to the
unit. They are just wires with no active components.
>
Multiplier -- The GP10s can accept 2 multipliers. I
don't believe that these are included in the basic
unit, they would need to be ordered as an extra cost
option. The multiplier requires the use of either an
integrator or summing amplifier as it provides a
current output. It can be put in the feedback path
and then function as a divider.
>
The GP10s can be patched to do a variety of basic
functions including adding (mixing), scaling,
subtracting, multiplying (VCA / ring modulation),
switching, simple oscillating, simple filtering, etc.
But a modular analog synthesizer would generally do a
much better job here. A VC state variable filter for
example would pretty much use up all the resources of
the GP10s and not work nearly as well as an analog
modular version. For example it would have a linear,
not exponential frequency control and it would have a
smaller VC tuning range. The GP-10s is a very small
analog computer that is primarily useful at the
introductory level but would rapidly run out of
capability for more than the most basic patches just
as a tiny music synthesizer would also have
significant
limitations.
>
In general, an analog computer is not a substitute for
an analog modular synthesizer, but a tool for
exploring new concepts. The strength of the analog
computer is in the solution of linear and non-linear
differential equations. This world tends to be foreign
to the musician, just as midi, frequency shifters
and arpeggios would be foreign to the mathematician.
There are countless capabilities of the analog
computer but they are not as VCO, VCA, etc. They are
as a virtually infinite set of mathematical models.
>
Chaotic systems is an example of an area that works
well with analog computers. Chaotic systems can also
be created directly in analog modular synthesizers.
The
article on my website provides examples of both analog
computer and analog synthesizer chaos in a musical
context.
>
Polynomials can be generated by cascading integrators,
this can provide an interesting type of envelope
function, although it is a bit difficult to control
in real time. These can further be enhanced by mode
switching the integrators. Analog computers excel in
the simulation of dynamic systems. These can provide
interesting musical models, both as sound and CV
generators, although the limited computing capability
of the GP10s would limit the exploration of this
area considerably. There are many other interesting
mathematical systems but they also are generally
beyond the capability of the GP10s.
>
>Best regards;
>
>Dan Slater


____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

Re: Comdyna info from Mr. Slater

2001-05-06 by Sebastian Kuehnl

The limitations of a basic learning device should not frighten those who are
seriously curious about entering an unknown territory. Someone previously
mentioned the "why" of our usual synth functions, and this is important to
keep in mind. Maybe you might find it interesting and rewarding to patch a
poor response VCF up from the ground? Remember, many musicians would
consider using your Serge instead of MIDI synths tedious and plain useless.

All options available today, besides Comdyna only Lab Electronics
http://www.surfindia.com/labelectronics/homepage.htm, are primarily intended
for educational purposes, which is what most of us here probably have to
start with when aiming at new musical paradiems through the use of analog
computers.

For a very nice example of what can be done with large analog computing
systems search the SDIY archive http://www.buchi.de/sdiy for ' bouncing
ball' ;->

Kind regards,
Sebastian Kuehnl



----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <r_a_quirk@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 1:30 PM
Subject: [SergeModular] Comdyna info from Mr. Slater


: Hi,
:
: Dan's email is pretty complete, and just about answers
: all of our questions. Enjoy!
:
: >From: Dan Slater <dslater@...>
: >Reply-To: dslater@...
: >To: Richard Quirk <r_quirk@...>
: >Subject: Re: Comdyna GP-10S
: >Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:27:38 -0700
: >
: >Hi Richard;
: >
: >Sorry for the delay in replying. I had a very busy
: week
: >
: >Richard Quirk wrote:
: >
: > > Hello again,
: > >
: > > I posted a message to a Serge newsgroup on Yahoo
: asking if anyone had used or owned any Comdyna
: analogue computers. There was quite a bit of interest
: so I directed them towards your website and told them
: what I'd been told in letters from Ray at Comdyna.
: > >
: I have been asked to ask you if you wouldn't mind
: explaining what the GP-10S can do (i.e. will it do the
: functions as described in the analogue computers page
: on your website), and how it can be used for musical
: purposes - & I will post this to the newsgroup (or you
: can join it yourself [SergeModular@yahoogroups.com]).
: The people on the website, like myself, don't have any
: great knowledge of maths, but there are quite a few
: that are very interested in buying a GP-10S if it can
: lead to new musical horizons without too much
: difficulty. Hopefully this makes sense.
: >
: Although I talked with Ray a number of times about the
: GP10s I don't know its exact final configuration and
: specifications. I believe that it is a scaled down
: version of the GP10 with 2 rather than 4 integration
: ranges (ie., 2 vs 4 capacitors) for each integrator
: and it uses somewhat less expensive integration
: capacitors. I believe that the GP10s has 8 coefficient
: potentiometers (attenuators), 4 initial condition
: potentiometers, 4 integrators, 4 summers and 8 trunk
: lines. Two multipliers can be added as an extra cost
: option.
: >
: Analog computers were originally designed to solve
: differential equations. Virtually all analog computers
: include 3 basic functions, integrators, summers
: and coefficient potentiometers.
: >
: Integrator -- The integrator forms a time integral of
: a voltage. It is implemented using capacitor feedback
: with an operational amplifier. The integrator stages
: can alternately be used as simple summing stages.
: >
: An electronic switch within the integrator allows the
: integrator to be electronically switched between a run
: state, hold state and reset state. When set to the run
: state, the integrator integrates the input signal. The
: hold state freezes the signal, similar to a sample and
: hold. The reset mode switches the integrator into an
: initial condition set mode. Associated with each
: integrator is an initial condition set potentiometer.
: This used to set the integrator output voltage prior
: to the start of an integration. Comdyna uses a sort of
: strange set of negative voltage levels to control the
: integrator mode. If you want to use the run/hold/reset
: capability with the GP10s you will have to produce the
: mode control signal externally. A second control
: signal can be used to select between the two
: capacitors. This signal also would have to be provided
: externally.
: >
: Summer -- A summing amplifier adds together several
: voltages and changes the sign. The summing amplifier
: is implemented as an inverting operational amplifier
: circuit with multiple inputs and resistive feedback.
: The GP10s has 4 of these with varying numbers of
: inputs.
: >
: Coefficient potentiometer -- Coefficient
: potentiometers multiply a voltage by a fixed value
: between 0 and 1. They are just a potentiometer setup
: as a voltage divider. For scientific applications,
: coefficient potentiometers need to be set precisely.
: Most analog computers include a switching network so
: that the potentiometer multiplication factor (with
: circuit loading) can be measured directly on a digital
: volt meter (DVM). I think that the GP10s internally
: has
: this switching capability although an external meter
: and control switch would be needed.
: >
: Trunk lines -- There are 8 lines that go to the rear
: panel as a convenience. You can use these as a
: convenient way of bringing inputs and outputs to the
: unit. They are just wires with no active components.
: >
: Multiplier -- The GP10s can accept 2 multipliers. I
: don't believe that these are included in the basic
: unit, they would need to be ordered as an extra cost
: option. The multiplier requires the use of either an
: integrator or summing amplifier as it provides a
: current output. It can be put in the feedback path
: and then function as a divider.
: >
: The GP10s can be patched to do a variety of basic
: functions including adding (mixing), scaling,
: subtracting, multiplying (VCA / ring modulation),
: switching, simple oscillating, simple filtering, etc.
: But a modular analog synthesizer would generally do a
: much better job here. A VC state variable filter for
: example would pretty much use up all the resources of
: the GP10s and not work nearly as well as an analog
: modular version. For example it would have a linear,
: not exponential frequency control and it would have a
: smaller VC tuning range. The GP-10s is a very small
: analog computer that is primarily useful at the
: introductory level but would rapidly run out of
: capability for more than the most basic patches just
: as a tiny music synthesizer would also have
: significant
: limitations.
: >
: In general, an analog computer is not a substitute for
: an analog modular synthesizer, but a tool for
: exploring new concepts. The strength of the analog
: computer is in the solution of linear and non-linear
: differential equations. This world tends to be foreign
: to the musician, just as midi, frequency shifters
: and arpeggios would be foreign to the mathematician.
: There are countless capabilities of the analog
: computer but they are not as VCO, VCA, etc. They are
: as a virtually infinite set of mathematical models.
: >
: Chaotic systems is an example of an area that works
: well with analog computers. Chaotic systems can also
: be created directly in analog modular synthesizers.
: The
: article on my website provides examples of both analog
: computer and analog synthesizer chaos in a musical
: context.
: >
: Polynomials can be generated by cascading integrators,
: this can provide an interesting type of envelope
: function, although it is a bit difficult to control
: in real time. These can further be enhanced by mode
: switching the integrators. Analog computers excel in
: the simulation of dynamic systems. These can provide
: interesting musical models, both as sound and CV
: generators, although the limited computing capability
: of the GP10s would limit the exploration of this
: area considerably. There are many other interesting
: mathematical systems but they also are generally
: beyond the capability of the GP10s.
: >
: >Best regards;
: >
: >Dan Slater
:
:
: ____________________________________________________________
: Do You Yahoo!?
: Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
: or your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
:
: To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
: SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
:
: Keep on Patchin'!
:
:
: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
:



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Comdyna info from Mr. Slater

2001-05-06 by C. Whitten

> and just about answers
> all of our questions

>The GP-10s is a very small
>analog computer that is primarily useful at the
>introductory level but would rapidly run out of
>capability for more than the most basic patches just
>as a tiny music synthesizer would also have
>significant limitations.

Aah, but my thought was to integrate it into the Serge system.
I don't know if it's possible. Why treat the GP10S as a small synthesizer
when it can be used within another larger banana set up.

>Maybe you might find it interesting and rewarding to patch a
>poor response VCF up from the ground? Remember, many musicians would
>consider using your Serge instead of MIDI synths tedious and plain useless.

Not only tedious but time consuming, *especially* for someone using
this stuff in their work.
Several times I've spent hours perfecting a bass patch only to see someone
else dial up something identical on a JV1080.
I wont stop taking the time to use my Serge/Fenix but when does the law of
diminishing returns come in to play(especially with the GP10s).

Re: comdyna

2001-05-12 by Steve Ridley

> I just received my GP-10S brochure from Ray. The patch panel is very
simlar
> to the GP-6 with 4 summer-integrators, 4 summing mixers, 2 multipliers,
> DC/ground patch points, and potentiometer patch points. It also has a
> "trunk line" which I'm guessing might be a multiple.

> The right side of the panel is different. There are no digital voltmeter
or
> run mode controls, just 12 knobs/potentiometers, 8 of which are configured
> as voltage dividers and 4 which are connected to DC voltages with just the
> variable leg connected to the patch panel for setting "Initial
Conditions",
> or DC bias in synthesizer language.

The digital voltmeter is no greal loss (you can buy on for £10 if you
need one), but the run mode control stuff might be useful if it could
be friven by a trigger or gate. I see the analog computer as a
control gererator as much as an audio processor, so gate control
of the reset/run/hold functions looks like an essential function. I know
that gates and triggers can be input directly to the individual sections,
but overall control seens like a serious omission.

> The built in options to the GP-10S are pretty limited, just more accurate
> multipliers or an integrating capacitor group that gives greater time
> scales. However, there are also banana plug modules that look
interesting,
> such as comparator feedback elements, absolute value (rectifier) module,
> even a VCO, though for the price ($95) I would guess it is a simple
> Hertz/octave type.

Most of this is fairly basic stuff. If anyone's interested, I have a DIY
analogue computer article I can scan. It's probably not as precise, but
it shouldn't cost more than 1/10th the price of the GP10S. You lose a
few features (and gain a reset/run/hold switch), but it's a cheap way
to find out if you want to spend $950 on a real one. I'll scan it if
there's
a lot of interest...

> I have emailed Ray Speiss to ask if it's okay for me to scan and post this
> to the Yahoo files site. I'll post a message to the group as soon as I
find
> out.

Thanks. Read and very interesting.



Steve Ridley

(who hasn't used an analogue computer for 20 years and wishes he
could remember a bit more).

Re: comdyna

2001-05-13 by daniel.rudin@cyberdynesys.com

--- In SergeModular@y..., "Steve Ridley" <spr@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
--- snip

--- snap
>
> Most of this is fairly basic stuff. If anyone's interested, I have
a DIY
> analogue computer article I can scan. It's probably not as
precise, but
> it shouldn't cost more than 1/10th the price of the GP10S. You
lose a
> few features (and gain a reset/run/hold switch), but it's a cheap
way
> to find out if you want to spend $950 on a real one. I'll scan it
if
> there's
> a lot of interest...
>

Yep, there is...(at least speaking for myself)

thanks
Daniel

Re: ETC and Sonica

2001-05-13 by Steve Ridley

>> I've seen a schematic of what claims to be an early Serge utility
>> oscillator, but I've never seen a module like it in any Serge
>> modular. The schematic was labelled ETC Oscillator, although
>> that might not be the name on the module. It had CV in with
>> reversible attenuator, sync in, ten turn frequency pot, rotary range
>> switch and square, triangle and sine outputs. The schematic
>> looked very like other early Serge ones, both in style and in
>> some of the circuit detail, but the rotary switch and ten turn pot
>> are very un-Serge. Does anyone know anything about this?

> Your description of this oscillator sounds exactly like the master
> oscillator in an old EML Synth package I used to own - It was called
> the Electrocomp 200 - In the top left corner was this oscillator with
> a Big knob - 10 turn pot - a rotary switch was used to switch
> octaves, and it put out simultaneous square, sine, and triangle
> waveforms. There is a photo of this system at synthmuseum.com. - just
> rang a bell.

Barry
Thanks. I've had a look at the EML200 master osc, but I'm fairly
certain it's not the same as the osc had the schematic for. The one I've
seen had a ten way range switch (and not in decades), and it had sync
and a CV input with reversible attenuator like most of the early Serge
modules. Maybe it was inspired by the EML?


Steve Ridley

Re: comdyna

2001-05-13 by Steve Ridley

> If anyone's interested, I have a DIY analogue computer article.
> I'll scan it if there's a lot of interest...

> Yep, there is...(at least speaking for myself)

Actually, I've found two construction articles. One by
P.J. Kronis is on line somewhere but I can't remember
where I found it. I've scanned the simpler one from
Hobby Electronics 1982, but I want to get it down
below 3.5M before I send it out.

Anyone else interested?


Steve Ridley

Re: comdyna

2001-05-13 by Chris Randall

> Actually, I've found two construction articles. One by
> P.J. Kronis is on line somewhere but I can't remember
> where I found it. I've scanned the simpler one from
> Hobby Electronics 1982, but I want to get it down
> below 3.5M before I send it out.
>
> Anyone else interested?

Steve:

I'm certainly interested in the "simpler" one. I say post it. (Of course, I
have broadband, so the 3.5 megs doesn't faze me...)

-Chris Randall

Re: comdyna

2001-05-14 by sonic@sonicboomuk.fsnet.co.uk

--- In SergeModular@y..., "Chris Randall" <chris@s...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Actually, I've found two construction articles. One by
> > P.J. Kronis is on line somewhere but I can't remember
> > where I found it. I've scanned the simpler one from
> > Hobby Electronics 1982, but I want to get it down
> > below 3.5M before I send it out.
> >
> > Anyone else interested?
>
> Steve:
>
> I'm certainly interested in the "simpler" one. I say post it. (Of
course, I
> have broadband, so the 3.5 megs doesn't faze me...)
>
> -Chris Randall

I GUESS YOU GUYS KNOW THAT AN INDIAN CO. CALLRD lAB eLECTRONICS DO A
CUTE ANALOGUE COMPUTER IN A EMS TYPE CASE FOR ABOUT $200 ..IT
INCLUDES 8 FET INPUT OP AMPS 2 EACH-SUMMERS , INTEGRATORS ,
&DIFFERENTIATORS.BUILT IN METER. ./RESET /COMPUTE/HOLD DIAL ,6 CO-
EFFICIENT MULTIPLIERS ,PLUS POWER SUPPLY.
sAME COMPANY ALSO DO VERY CHEAP UNITS WITH MULTIPLE LOGIG GATES
(AND , OR , NOR , X-OR , FLIP-FLOPS , DECODERS , DECADE COUNTER ,
MULTIVIBRATOR & DIGITAL COUNTER. THIS IS ABOUT $120 i THINK .a
L;ARGER VERSION WITH MORE INPUT LOGIC MODULES IS A LITTLE MORE.
aLL USABLE WITH THE SERGE..
WEBSITE WWW.LABELECTRONICS.COM

P.K.

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