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davies knobs for the serge

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by Bill Sequeira

As an alternative to Allied and a better price on the Davies knobs
you can look at Mouser Electronics

Davies Molding 1900-h knob: Single order price is $1.17 each,
$1.05 for 10, .70 for 100, and .59 for 500 knobs.

Credit to Cynthia Webster for finding the good deal.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________
William Sequeira, Ph.D. -- Principal, Axon Hillock, Inc.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "m. blake wilson" <mbw@...>
> Organization: odyssey sounds
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:25:24 -0700
> To: SergeModular <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>, "analogue@..."
> <analogue@...>
> Subject: [SergeModular] davies knobs for the serge
>
> for the archives:
>
> the serge modular uses knobs manufactured by davies and available at:
>
> http://www.alliedelec.com/ <http://www.alliedelec.com/default.asp>
>
> part number is 543-0400
>
> $2 each.
>
> blake
>
>
> --
> m. blake wilson is OdysseySounds
> email: mbw@...
> web: http://members.cox.net/mbw/construction.htm
> music: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/242/matthew_b_wilson.html
> serge: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SergeModular/
>
>

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by Blake Wilson Law Office

Bill Sequeira wrote:

> As an alternative to Allied and a better price on the Davies knobs
> you can look at Mouser Electronics
>
> Davies Molding 1900-h knob: Single order price is $1.17 each,
> $1.05 for 10, .70 for 100, and .59 for 500 knobs.
>
> Credit to Cynthia Webster for finding the good deal.
>
close but no cigar: the cheaper davies knobs from mouser *have no
pointer line* and are therefore useless for the serge. you're
essentially paying close to a dollar more for the line...sheesh!

i called rex about finding lined davies and he made the referral to
allied. that rex...always so helpful.

b.

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by Bill Sequeira

Interesting and good to know.

Maybe we should open a "line painting" business? ;-)

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________
William Sequeira, Ph.D. -- Principal, Axon Hillock, Inc.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Blake Wilson Law Office <mbwlaw@...>
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:39:21 -0700
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: "analogue@..." <analogue@...>
> Subject: Re: [SergeModular] davies knobs for the serge
>
>
>
> Bill Sequeira wrote:
>
>> As an alternative to Allied and a better price on the Davies knobs
>> you can look at Mouser Electronics
>>
>> Davies Molding 1900-h knob: Single order price is $1.17 each,
>> $1.05 for 10, .70 for 100, and .59 for 500 knobs.
>>
>> Credit to Cynthia Webster for finding the good deal.
>>
> close but no cigar: the cheaper davies knobs from mouser *have no
> pointer line* and are therefore useless for the serge. you're
> essentially paying close to a dollar more for the line...sheesh!
>
> i called rex about finding lined davies and he made the referral to
> allied. that rex...always so helpful.
>
> b.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by Chris Whitten

> close but no cigar: the cheaper davies knobs from mouser *have no
> pointer line* and are therefore useless for the serge.
It doesn't take much to add a little blob to indicate position.
In any case, why would they be useless?
There are no graded markings on the facia so you are not aligning the knob
position to anything.
CW

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by m. blake wilson

Chris Whitten wrote:

> > close but no cigar: the cheaper davies knobs from mouser *have no
> > pointer line* and are therefore useless for the serge.
> It doesn't take much to add a little blob to indicate position.
> In any case, why would they be useless?
> There are no graded markings on the facia so you are not aligning the knob
> position to anything.

huh? knobs have at least two purposes: first and foremost, you grab them
and adjust your parameter. second, you look at them for an indication
where that parameter lies. so of course a "lineless" knob certainly
allows you to perform purpose #1, but #2 is impossible.

why do you think lines are there in the first place?

b. (obviously missing something here...)

--
m. blake wilson is OdysseySounds
email: mbw@...
web: http://members.cox.net/mbw/construction.htm
music: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/242/matthew_b_wilson.html
serge: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SergeModular/

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by Chris Whitten

> why do you think lines are there in the first place?
A bit less of the cheek wouldn't go amiss for a start.
Secondly I just thought a statement that they would be 'useless' was a bit
strong.
I tend to get a sound by twiddling a few knobs say in the case of filter
frequency. Once I've recorded it I move on, probably never to use that exact
setting again.
It's like saying a blind man, for example Stevie Wonder, would be useless as
a Serge user.
I agree that it's not ideal, but useless? Just a bit OTT in my book.
CW

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by M. Blake Wilson

Chris Whitten wrote:

> why do you think lines are there in the first place?
A bit less of the cheek wouldn't go amiss for a start.
agreed.

Secondly I just thought a statement that they would be 'useless' was a bit
strong.
I tend to get a sound by twiddling a few knobs say in the case of filter
frequency. Once I've recorded it I move on, probably never to use that exact
setting again.
It's like saying a blind man, for example Stevie Wonder, would be useless as
a Serge user.
well, somewhat useless unless it was braille or he had an amazing memory, and in any event i'm sure he would want a knob that gave him tactile indication of settings (simply replacing visual indication). wonder used the ARP 2600, i believe, because the sliders gave him the tactile feeback he needed that knobs couldn't. of course, chicken headed knobs would work, too.....

b.


--
M. BLAKE WILSON, ATTORNEY @ LAW
phone: 619 234-2200
fax: 619 234-2219
email: mbwlaw@...
website: http://www.mattwilsonlaw.com

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by DarkStr717@aol.com

In a message dated 6/20/02 2:08:51 PM, mbwlaw@... writes:

<< Chris Whitten wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > why do you think lines are there in the first place?
> A bit less of the cheek wouldn't go amiss for a start.

agreed.

>
> Secondly I just thought a statement that they would be 'useless' was a
> bit
> strong.
> I tend to get a sound by twiddling a few knobs say in the case of
> filter
> frequency. Once I've recorded it I move on, probably never to use that
> exact
> setting again.
> It's like saying a blind man, for example Stevie Wonder, would be
> useless as
> a Serge user.

well, somewhat useless unless it was braille or he had an amazing
memory, and in any event i'm sure he would want a knob that gave him
tactile indication of settings (simply replacing visual indication).
wonder used the ARP 2600, i believe, because the sliders gave him the
tactile feeback he needed that knobs couldn't. of course, chicken headed
knobs would work, too..... >>

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............................. thud.
JD

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-20 by M. Blake Wilson

DarkStr717@... wrote:


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............................. thud.
JD
yessssssssssss......my baaaaaaaad.......now, why doesnt' serge have a frequency to voltage module?

i just hooked up an analogue systems device and have been having loads of fun with a drum machine.

b.

--
M. BLAKE WILSON, ATTORNEY @ LAW
phone: 619 234-2200
fax: 619 234-2219
email: mbwlaw@...
website: http://www.mattwilsonlaw.com

Re: davies knobs for the serge

2002-06-21 by Chris Whitten

>why doesnt' serge have a frequency to voltage module?

Why don't STS have *any* new modules in development.
Even Buchla are proposing a couple of new designs.
Ah yes but I think we've had this 'flame war' before.
CW

New STS modules?

2002-06-21 by peff2cv

> Why don't STS have *any* new modules in development.

Is Rex open to input from customers? I got a module idea that (IMHO)
would be awesome to see "Sergified" but if he isn't interested, I
might just do it myself and release the design on Synth-DIY...

Peff

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-21 by William Felton

Coincidentally, I spoke with Rex hardly an hour ago.
We discussed, peripherally, research and development
and new modules and so forth. Bottom line for Rex
seems to be that this is not a good time to be sinking
money in R&D as opposed to maintaining build quality
and keeping the business going. The distinct feeling
I got from this side-conversation is that he has,
in fact, done some investigative/research work and
plans to do more, but "as the business
permits/demands"
rather than "right now at any cost".
Rex is eminently approachable, I can't imagine not
having a good conversation with him on module ideas
or most anything else. Don't hesitate to call and
chat
with him about your idea. But don't take it
personally
if it doesn't go anywhere, or doesn't go quickly into
process -- that does not seem to be where Rex's head
is at.
And all, please note -- these are *my* impressions of
what I heard Rex saying, including a fair bit of
reading between the lines. This is by no means a
canonical STS position statement!

cheers,
Bill
Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- peff2cv <m_2_f@...> wrote:
>
> > Why don't STS have *any* new modules in
> development.
>
> Is Rex open to input from customers? I got a module
> idea that (IMHO)
> would be awesome to see "Sergified" but if he isn't
> interested, I
> might just do it myself and release the design on
> Synth-DIY...
>
> Peff
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


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Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-21 by RFahl

Hello Bill,

Have you resurrected Monster so that it can play with your Serge? Seems
like they would be a good combination.

I've gotten into a rut of building and not playing. Somehow building is
strangely addictive to me.

Romeo


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: William Felton <bfelton@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [SergeModular] New STS modules?


> Coincidentally, I spoke with Rex hardly an hour ago.
> We discussed, peripherally, research and development
> and new modules and so forth. Bottom line for Rex
> seems to be that this is not a good time to be sinking
> money in R&D as opposed to maintaining build quality
> and keeping the business going. The distinct feeling
> I got from this side-conversation is that he has,
> in fact, done some investigative/research work and
> plans to do more, but "as the business
> permits/demands"
> rather than "right now at any cost".
> Rex is eminently approachable, I can't imagine not
> having a good conversation with him on module ideas
> or most anything else. Don't hesitate to call and
> chat
> with him about your idea. But don't take it
> personally
> if it doesn't go anywhere, or doesn't go quickly into
> process -- that does not seem to be where Rex's head
> is at.
> And all, please note -- these are *my* impressions of
> what I heard Rex saying, including a fair bit of
> reading between the lines. This is by no means a
> canonical STS position statement!
>
> cheers,
> Bill
>
> --- peff2cv <m_2_f@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Why don't STS have *any* new modules in
> > development.
> >
> > Is Rex open to input from customers? I got a module
> > idea that (IMHO)
> > would be awesome to see "Sergified" but if he isn't
> > interested, I
> > might just do it myself and release the design on
> > Synth-DIY...
> >
> > Peff
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-22 by DarkStr717@aol.com

In a message dated 6/21/02 11:28:43 AM, bfelton@... writes:

<< But don't take it
personally
if it doesn't go anywhere, or doesn't go quickly into
process -- that does not seem to be where Rex's head
is at.
And all, please note -- these are *my* impressions of
what I heard Rex saying, including a fair bit of
reading between the lines >>

This is an accurate impression. I have also had many conversations with Rex
about moduals and mods ( Resonant EQ and TKB) but nothing is going to happen
soon. The economy sucks. There isn't any money for R&D. He's having a hard
enough time with suppliers and just getting enough orders to keep things
afloat.
I'm surprised he didn't follow through with his original intent when he
moved from Oakland which was to scale things back to the point where he was
building just a few custom panels a month, when he wanted, and all the money
had to be upfront, turn around time of 4 weeks. This was one of the ideas he
floated to me me during the moving period. The market for this stuff is
incredibly small and despite the high prices i'm sure he is haveing a tough
go right now. So new moduals are seriously on the back burner which is a
shame 'cause he does have a burning desire to take things to a new level.
Kind regards
John DuVal

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-22 by Chris Whitten

> I have also had many conversations with Rex
> about moduals and mods ( Resonant EQ and TKB)
That would be exciting.
> The economy sucks. There isn't any money for R&D.
How do Wiard, MOTM and ModCan manage to stay afloat while often releasing
new modules?
>just getting enough orders to keep things
> afloat.
I thought there were so many orders there was a (close to) 6 month wait.
>The market for this stuff is
> incredibly small and despite the high prices i'm sure he is haveing a tough
> go right now.
I agree, I'm sure you are right. I'm still puzzled though how these other
small modular makers can expand their customer base and introduce new
modules while STS can not.
CW

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-22 by Norman Fay

In message <B93A9AB4.2074%cw.chris@...>, Chris Whitten
<cw.chris@...> writes
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'm still puzzled though how these other
>small modular makers can expand their customer base and introduce new
>modules while STS can not.
>CW
>
I'm sure to some extent this is because some other manufacturers produce
either a set of "standard" functions, and/or produce modules based
(often v closely) on already-existing design concepts (moog ladder
filter, ms20 filter, you know the score). Not that this is intended in
any way as a dis, please understand - I'm very glad to have the option
of buying some of this stuff to use myself. The main exceptions out of
the stuff I'm getting are I suppose Blacet and Wiard, one-man
operations, it seems, with unconventional minds designing their
products, or synth tech, who have some clever & thoughtful folks coming
up w/circuits for them. Even then, their products include a discrete
re-creation of the SSM 2040 VCF, & a forthcoming cs80 filter clone.
Again, not that I'm complaining or anything.

Personally, I would imagine any new designs bearing the Serge name would
be unusual, or would take existing design concepts to different places
(EG the compatatively recent-ish pulse divider, w/ integer divisions
instead of multiples of 2) I hope Rex can get through this undoubtedly
extremely shitty period for small businesses & produce something new
ASAP anyway

best etc
--
Norman Fay

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-22 by Les Mizzell

> I'm still puzzled though how these other
>small modular makers can expand their customer base and introduce new
>modules while STS can not.

Biggest difference:

Paul over at MOTM has a day job.
Bruce at Modcan (I own a growing Modcan system) has, to the best of my
knowledge, a day job.
Roger over at Arrick (synthesizers.com) has a day job.
Grant over at Wiard has, once again to the best of my knowledge, a day job.


Rex makes Serge panels and dissapears at times to play blues with his band.


I still contend that Rex is *not* doing himself a favour by refusing to
produce individual modules instead of full panels. The Serge modules are,
individually, competitevly priced against the competition. I'd buy a few
right now if I didn't have to get an entire $2850.00 panel to get them.....

Les

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by John Loffink

> > The economy sucks. There isn't any money for R&D.
> How do Wiard, MOTM and ModCan manage to stay afloat while often
releasing
> new modules?

Wiard, MOTM and Modcan are basically hobbies. Their R&D is funded by
their owners. Okay, I might be wrong about Wiard, but do know that
Grant had problems financing his self contained mini-synthesizer
project. That's why it's not coming out anytime soon.

> >just getting enough orders to keep things
> > afloat.
> I thought there were so many orders there was a (close to) 6 month
wait.

Panel orders are down to about a 3 month wait.

John Loffink
jloffink@...

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by skuehnl

--- In SergeModular@y..., "Les Mizzell" <lesmizz@b...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I still contend that Rex is *not* doing himself a favour by
refusing to
> produce individual modules instead of full panels. The Serge
modules are,
> individually, competitevly priced against the competition. I'd buy
a few
> right now if I didn't have to get an entire $2850.00 panel to get
them.....
>
> Les

- Yes!

SK

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by John Papiewski

I really wouldn't consider Wiard to be Grant's hobby.... his orders
fluctuate and he does other engineering projects on occasion but Wiard really
is his bread & butter...

As for a sucky economy, while this is true generally, and while some
individuals are getting pinched, some are doing okay. I know a guy
personally who just dropped six figures on a Mercedes. The guy who played
Spider man in the movie just bought a big house. So it depends.

JP

John Loffink wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > The economy sucks. There isn't any money for R&D.
> > How do Wiard, MOTM and ModCan manage to stay afloat while often
> releasing
> > new modules?
>
> Wiard, MOTM and Modcan are basically hobbies. Their R&D is funded by
> their owners. Okay, I might be wrong about Wiard, but do know that
> Grant had problems financing his self contained mini-synthesizer
> project. That's why it's not coming out anytime soon.

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

>I still contend that Rex is *not* doing himself a favour by refusing to
>produce individual modules instead of full panels. The Serge modules are,
>individually, competitevly priced against the competition. I'd buy a few
>right now if I didn't have to get an entire $2850.00 panel to get them.....

On this front, what would people want to be the "standard" widths for such
sub-panels, and how many people would actually be interested in buying them
this way?

For that matter, how many people would be interested in buying modules
produced by other companies if they fit into the serge format either as sub
panels, or full panels?

Just curious

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by Les Mizzell

> On this front, what would people want to be the "standard" widths for such
> sub-panels, and how many people would actually be interested in buying
them
> this way?

I've got no problem with the width they are when included in a full panel.
You'd want them to not vary from what's current so they'd match panels you
already own, right?

You'd simply use a "frac-rack" type mounting for them.


My opinion anyway. Rex has stated in the past that this will happen when the
moon turns to cheeze.

Les

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by Chris Whitten

> For that matter, how many people would be interested in buying modules
> produced by other companies if they fit into the serge format either as sub
> panels, or full panels?
I'd say probably most Serge owners and many people who can't currently
afford a 'starter' panel.
For once I agree with Rex that isn't going to happen in a hurry. There might
be as much r&d in isolating individual modules and sourcing new individual
face plate as there would be to design a new module.
CW

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by John Loffink

>
> You'd simply use a "frac-rack" type mounting for them.
>
>
> My opinion anyway. Rex has stated in the past that this will happen
when
> the
> moon turns to cheeze.
>

IMHO we are extremely fortunate in our choices in modular synthesizers.
We have today Serge, Wiard, Blacet, Synthesizers.com, CMS, MOTM or
Modcan to choose from, and that only includes North American
manufacturers.

Let's remember that none of these folks are getting rich from this, most
don't even earn a living from it. Special requests such as individually
mounted Serge panels will require hundreds of hours of re-packaging
effort. If you look behind a Serge panel you will realize that
repackaging is not as simple a request as it sounds. I've seen other
special requests to other manufacturers, and I believe that while
sometimes they are often valid it would be impossible for these
companies to respond to every request.

I would certainly prefer to have individually mounted Serge modules.
But would I prefer that if it added a 10-20% premium to every module?
Probably not.

Being a capitalistic/consumer based society you have your choice: vote
with you pocketbook. If you must have individual modules with banana
jack interfaces then buy Modcan. If you must have certain special or
esoteric Serge modules, then you have to judge the tradeoffs.

Another option is to modify existing modules from one format to another
manufacturer or DIY boards available from Oakley, EFM, etc. If you ever
get into this, you'll realize just why the modular companies don't like
doing special requests -- it is not time or cost effective for them to
do so.

John Loffink
jloffink@...

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by Les Mizzell

> If you must have individual modules with banana
> jack interfaces then buy Modcan.

That' exactly what I've got

> Another option is to modify existing modules from
> one format to another manufacturer or DIY boards
> available from Oakley, EFM, etc.

Doing that too. Cynthia Webster has figured out how to produce, EXACTLY, the
anodized Modcan front panels. She's currectly building/adapting a couple of
Ken Stone Burst Generators from the Catgirl synth. She's talked to Encore
about a Modcan version of the Universal Event Generator, with her providing
the front panel, and is consider some MOTM conversions as well....

I've been putting bananas on MOTM here as well. Not the easiers modules to
convert since Paul likes a lot of switched connections, but so far I haven't
had much trouble by adding a few toggle switches here and there.

I'm still considering a Serge TKB....

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-23 by Scott Evans, Gen Mgr

My choice to not opt for a Serge synth was heavily influenced by the
fixed panel design, both in the all at once cost outlay and the
inflexibility once the panel was "fixed". I think that the Serge synth
would have been my choice had this not been the case. From a
functionality standpoint, I don't think it can be beat.

Scott

sasami@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >I still contend that Rex is *not* doing himself a favour by refusing to
> >produce individual modules instead of full panels. The Serge modules are,
> >individually, competitevly priced against the competition. I'd buy a few
> >right now if I didn't have to get an entire $2850.00 panel to get them.....
>
> On this front, what would people want to be the "standard" widths for such
> sub-panels, and how many people would actually be interested in buying them
> this way?
>
> For that matter, how many people would be interested in buying modules
> produced by other companies if they fit into the serge format either as sub
> panels, or full panels?
>
> Just curious
>
> Ken
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Ken Stone sasami@...
> Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
> Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SergeModular-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-24 by ethanzer0

> I agree, I'm sure you are right.
> I'm still puzzled though how
> these other small modular makers
> can expand their customer base
> and introduce new modules while
> STS can not CW.

Maybe an Official STS.com or Serge.com
website would help. Individual modules
would also help break the barrier to
entry. I would like to start building
a Serge system, however, it is much
easier for me to amass $300-$400 extra
dollars than $2,800 at any given time.

Was there ever a time when serge could
be purchased in single modules? Surely
if Rex owns the intellectual property of
Serge, then the templates, PCB overlays
, and construction procedures must still
exist.

$.02

Ethan

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-24 by Chris Whitten

> Maybe an Official STS.com or Serge.com
> website would help.
It's been suggested and rejected.

> Was there ever a time when serge could
> be purchased in single modules?
>
Presumably when they were available in kit form.
CW

Re: New STS modules?

2002-06-25 by DarkStr717@aol.com

In a message dated 6/22/02 7:43:53 PM, johnp299792@... writes:

<< I know a guy
personally who just dropped six figures on a Mercedes. The guy who played
Spider man in the movie just bought a big house. So it depends.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>

So???... these guys play modulars??? haha
JD

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