SergeModular

Hi Serge Users,

I am still trying to sell a very old 2 panel Serge system built into a Moog
15 style portable case. If anyone is interested, please take a look at the
link below. This item failed to meet reserve on eBay so I will consider
reasonable offers from anyone who is seriously interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=851493294

There is also a chance I would consider a trade, if you have anything
interesting and comparable.

Thanks for reading.

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mm123 ah wrote:

Hi Serge Users,

I am still trying to sell a very old 2 panel Serge system built into a Moog
15 style portable case. If anyone is interested, please take a look at the
link below. This item failed to meet reserve on eBay so I will consider
reasonable offers from anyone who is seriously interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=851493294

There is also a chance I would consider a trade, if you have anything
interesting and comparable.

what was your reserve?

b.

--
m. blake wilson is OdysseySounds
email: mbw@...
web: http://members.home.net/odysseysounds/index.htm
music: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/242/matthew_b_wilson.html
serge: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SergeModular/

hi,

due to the lack of response, i just decided to relist this 2 panel serge
with no reserve. minimum bid is $1999.99 so it will sell for that if anyone
bids on it. i think this is a fair price considering its rarity and the
prices i've seen other people ask for similar systems in the past. the new
listing is here, for anyone who's interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=854054190

if reserve is not met, i would definitely consider working out a trade for
other interesting stuff so please email me at mm123ahAAAA@...
(remove the AAAA's first) if you're interestedand maybe we could work
something out.

by the way, i find Serge's approach on the older panels to be unique and
interesting but i had always wondered, if someone did not know what they
were doing, would it be at all possible to damage their synth by plugging
outs to outs or making other uneducated patches?

also, whats the current situation with new serge? is rex still producing
them and if so, whats the turn around time?

thanks for reading.

mm123 ah wrote:

hi,

due to the lack of response, i just decided to relist this 2 panel serge
with no reserve. minimum bid is $1999.99 so it will sell for that if anyone
bids on it.

considering the fact that you got bids of approx. $1200 total for the three pieces (2 panels and the ps/case) when they were being offered individually, and just $1030 for the set when you offered it last week, i'm stunned that you think you're going to get TWICE that amount simply by terming this a "no reserve" auction. certainly no one on this list is interested in paying that kind of money for these items (nor are approximately 5 million ebay users worldwide).

you seem to have a very unrealistic opinion concerning the value of gear (for this and other auctions; you don't seem to make your reserve very often) and you're paying through the nose for your listings when your items don't sell.

old serge gear just isn't that valuable because new gear is readily had; there's no difference in features and sound except for the fact that new gear is clearly superior. you'd buy old/used gear only to save money, and not for "collector/vintage" purposes, IMHO.

so good luck, i guess. the two panels and the homemade case are worth around $1000.00.

blake
moderator, Serge Modular Owners Group
--
m. blake wilson is OdysseySounds
email: mbw@...
web: http://members.home.net/odysseysounds/index.htm
music: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/242/matthew_b_wilson.html
serge: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SergeModular/

>considering the fact that you got bids of approx. $1200 total for the
>three pieces (2 panels and the ps/case) when they were being offered
>individually, and just $1030 for the set when you offered it last week,
>i'm stunned that you think you're going to get TWICE that amount simply
>by terming this a "no reserve" auction. certainly no one on this list is
>interested in paying that kind of money for these items (nor are
>approximately 5 million ebay users worldwide).

maybe you havent had much experience selling things on ebay. its typical
for an item with a high reserve to end with a bid significantly lower than
what it would sell for had there not been a reserve price or had reserve
been met. regardless of this, i will take what you are saying into
consideration. however, any serge lover (and i think there are plenty of
them here) understands that its not an easy decision to part with equipment
like this. this holds true for me as well. therefore, i have set my price
according to what this system is worth to me. if nobody wants it, then i
will be "stuck" with it, but i dont mind because i am not desperate to sell
it. also, you should know that i received 2 offers after my auction, 1 for
$1600 (which i thought was too low until now) and 1 for $2000. why didnt i
take the $2000 offer? because it was from someone with no track record,
references, ebay account, etc and i would rather sell to someone who i know
for a fact is serious than hold onto a piece of gear for someone for a
couple of weeks as i wait for payment which was never sent. anyway, like i
said, if nobody wants to pay my price, this item wont sell. theres no point
in telling everyone that this serge is not worth my asking price as vintage
serge gear like this is very rare and similar panels i have seen in the past
have gone for the same, if not more money.

>you seem to have a very unrealistic opinion concerning the value of gear
>(for this and other auctions; you don't seem to make your reserve very
>often) and you're paying through the nose for your listings when your
>items don't sell.

thanks for the feedback, perhaps i will change my strategy. i just looked
you up on ebay to see how you typically list your spare gear but i only
found items in the $4-15 range. i would be curious to see how you value the
items you sell.

>old serge gear just isn't that valuable because new gear is readily had;
>there's no difference in features and sound except for the fact that new
>gear is clearly superior. you'd buy old/used gear only to save money,
>and not for "collector/vintage" purposes, IMHO.

well, thats your opinion but its not necessarily everyones opinion (i dont
need a poll). there are some people who appreciate older gear more, for its
collectability. look at the vintage guitar market or effects market. some
people are happy with reissues, but others must have every single version of
every product thats been released. are you one of these people? doesnt
sound like it. am i? sometimes yes, sometimes no. should you speak for
everyone in the world? should i? no.

>so good luck, i guess. the two panels and the homemade case are worth
>around $1000.00.

well, again, thats your opinion. to me, they are worth more. sorry you dont
approve of its value to me. good luck with your gear deals.

did you read the rest of my message and have a reply to it (the part about
potentially harmful patch connections?)


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Im in total agreement and believe people who pull bullshit like that should stay the fuck away from it. The price your asking for is FAIR but the economy is bad right now. If you cant get the price your looking for then put in on the shelf and forget about it. Once this drout is over you'll get double what your asking now, Its just bad timming. If I had the extra cash like before 9-11 I would have bought it. Ebay sucks now (fewer are buying), last year it would have been gone already. Price police can kiss my ass. Dont sell yourself short pal. We all know serge is the best (no matter what year) any less then go buy a fuckin VA
BOLDMONK
--

>
>by the way, i find Serge's approach on the older panels to be unique and
>interesting but i had always wondered, if someone did not know what they
>were doing, would it be at all possible to damage their synth by plugging
>outs to outs or making other uneducated patches?

While the old manual makes LOUD noises about not plugging outputs to
outputs, it then turns around and says the chances of damage are 1 in 1000.

>also, whats the current situation with new serge? is rex still producing
>them and if so, whats the turn around time?

Yes, as far as I know they are still being produced. Turn around time
depends on if you buy one of his "color" predesigned systems, or want
somthing unique.

As for the prices of them, having had a good look at the circuitry involved,
I cannot understand why they command such high prices, particularly the
older ones.

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/synth/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Pitch Mod wrote:

Ah, the return of "the price police". I love it when cheap people decide that a price is too high for them and then tell others that they shouldn't buy that item because it's too pricey. Why don't you just leave him alone and let him ask what he wants? If nobody wants what he has, he simply won't sell it.

"cheap people"? "tell others they shouldn't buy"? are we on the same planet here?

i own seven serge panels; i hardly qualify as a "cheep person". and i have never told anyone not to buy any gear. this seller has bombarded the list for the third time trying to sell these panels at vastly inflated prices; he is inviting discussion by posting to the list in the first place so i'm merely responding.

and for the record, i don't think there is any doubt that a 2 year old panel is worth far more than a 20 or 25 year old panel; quality control back in the day was lax, and you may be buying a kit built by an amateur (aside from more obvious concerns such as the age of the components and everyday wear and tear). furthermore, i know of no one who collects "vintage serge" or specifically desires a "hollywood" serge or what have you. i might even go so far as to make the claim that the only benefit to finding a used panel (besides the price) is finding one with the GE pitch/envelope follower because its no longer available.

sincerely,

blake, chief of the price police and your humble SMOG moderator.

--
M. BLAKE WILSON, ATTORNEY @ LAW
phone: 619 234-2200
fax: 619 234-2219
email: mbwlaw@...
website: http://www.mattwilsonlaw.com

> >also, whats the current situation with new serge? is rex still producing
> >them and if so, whats the turn around time?
>
> Yes, as far as I know they are still being produced. Turn around time
> depends on if you buy one of his "color" predesigned systems, or want
> somthing unique.

I got my 4th panel a coupla weeks ago - took 6 months from time of order.
No problem for me... gave me 6 months to get the rest of the balance
together :-)

> As for the prices of them, having had a good look at the circuitry

involved,

> I cannot understand why they command such high prices, particularly the
> older ones.

well I'm no expert when it comes to component costs , but Serge doesn't come
out
too bad compared to MOTM, Modcan, Wiard, etc. Aesthetically it beats those
systems hands down too... IMO.

I don't mind paying Rex's prices cos of the way he does business too. You
still get something
genuinely out of the mainstream cos he chooses not to expand STS too much. I
like that.

Just wish he had more time to update/design new modules... (particularly in
the filter department
where I'm most impressed with the efforts of Modcan & MOTM to bring out a
varied selection
of VCF's).

As for the original post about the price of the old 2 panel system... I
don't think $1999.00 is too much
at all. Just like others have said... economy is uncertain right now. People
are playing safe... I couldn't even shift
my E4 for £450 on ebay!!

Added to that may be the 'fear factor' of maintaining a Vintage Serge...
difficult to repair? Sure looks nice and a piece
of history too. Keep it dude.

KD

dear pitch mod, andre and kirk,

thanks for backing me up there. you are right, the lousy economy is the
reason for my relatively high opening bids and set reserve prices right now
- ebay is not what it was before 9-11 right now and i dont want to feel like
a sucker listing stuff with a very low opening bid and no reserve (which is
what i used to do a lot) and getting peanuts for it.

if you think the $2Gs i am hoping to get for my Serge is too high, visit the
oldtech site (where you will see a 2+ panel system for $4200) and also
analog modular systems (where you will see a clients small system for 2Gs).
has anyone else seen early Serge for sale? if so, when, where, and at what
price?

m blake, there is no reason to be concerned about build quality of my serge.
its built well and is working well. just because you do not know anyone
who collects vintage serge, that does not mean there is nobody who does and
anyone who appreciates new serge would surely appreciate its precursor for
what it is.

also, i didnt think the serge GE pitch envelope follower module was
available until a while after this particular serge was built - the only
serge panels i have seen with that module are the later silver ones.

Thanks Ken for the answer about the patching question. :)




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sasami@... wrote:

> As for the prices of them, having had a good look at the circuitry involved,
> I cannot understand why they command such high prices, particularly the
> older ones.
>

.... a small percentage pays for the parts, the rest goes to hand labor and
business overhead. You can't (fairly) compare a mass-manufactured thing to
something like a Serge... they even hand-select the KNOBS for chrissakes....
also consider that, comparing a vintage Buchla or Moog module vs a new STS Serge
... you're getting a technically superior module for far less inflation-adjusted
dollars.

JP

First off and importantly.....
you have the absolute right to price your system at what ever level you are
comfortable with.
Other than that my opinion is that Matt (or Blake....is this a version of
'good cop, bad cop'?)
is right. This is surely a forum for debate and if you post to it you have
to expect people with different opinions to say their piece. Perhaps Matt
could have politely advised that in his experience older Serge systems are
harder to sell and that during the current 'war against terrorism' prices
have fallen. Whatever..
I think a few of you have dismissed his other points rather unfairly as
well. The first thing that concerns me when considering a pre STS Serge
system is build quality. It may be that this system is superb but many were
put together from kits, the front panel was covered in paper! and a tech
friend of mine whose had a couple of similar systems pass through said they
were both "dogs".
On the AMS front: One system is MUCH better featured than the one being
discussed here. The other is similarly priced at $2,000 but although these
are 'client sales' you have got to think that there is a certain dealer back
up, if nothing else you don't have to worry about having your money stolen.
I happen to know that neither system has seen any interest. Kevin Lightner
is trying to sell more recent panels and his bids seem to top out around the
$1,000 mark. I certainly find the comment that 'your system is worth double'
to come from cloud cuckoo land.
Finally my axe to grind....
I'm trying to sell a 4 year old, 2 panel system in pretty much mint
condition for below what I paid for it in 1998. No serious enquiries. I
certainly expected to get the odd ' I'll give you two grand for it' punt.
I'd be interested to know if John Duval has had any enquiries for his 4
panels.
CW

>First off and importantly.....
>you have the absolute right to price your system at what ever level you are
>comfortable with.

Thank you :)

>Other than that my opinion is that Matt (or Blake....is this a version of
>'good cop, bad cop'?)

M Blake is the bad cop. Matt B. is the good cop. Or is it the other way
around? :)

>is right. This is surely a forum for debate and if you post to it you have
>to expect people with different opinions to say their piece. Perhaps Matt
>could have politely advised that in his experience older Serge systems are
>harder to sell and that during the current 'war against terrorism' prices
>have fallen. Whatever..

Matt / Blake's message seemed to me an effort to detract from my offer,
which I would not do to anyone else and certainly cant appreciate. If you
were the seller you would not appreciate it either. He stated that my Serge
is not worth what I wanted for it yet refused to back that up with
documented prices of similar Serge gear which has actually sold. Anyone can
say that someone's asking too much for something but then insisting it
should cost 1/2 the price without citing prices of similar past sales is
wrong. I saw DuVal's used Serge panels priced at over double what I priced
these at and did not think it was wrong to ask 1/2 of what more recent used
Serge is priced at.

>I think a few of you have dismissed his other points rather unfairly as
>well. The first thing that concerns me when considering a pre STS Serge
>system is build quality. It may be that this system is superb but many were
>put together from kits, the front panel was covered in paper! and a tech
>friend of mine whose had a couple of similar systems pass through said they
>were both "dogs".

The system I am selling is NOT a dog. Build quality is fine as are
cosmetics and functionality is fine and to my knowledge has been fine since
the 70s. Maybe this is one of the best Serges from that period? That would
be even more reason for it to fetch a good price.

>On the AMS front: One system is MUCH better featured than the one being
>discussed here. The other is similarly priced at $2,000 but although these
>are 'client sales' you have got to think that there is a certain dealer
>back
>up, if nothing else you don't have to worry about having your money stolen.

Check my ebay feedback before you practically imply that I steal peoples
money. Also, you should realize that this is a synthesizer I have in my
possession and have personally tested. if AMS is listing it as a clients
synth, i doubt its going to go through them before the sale and i would also
doubt that they would assume responsibility for it if it was misrepresented
by the client. (the clients apparently pay for advertising on the site - im
not sure if AMSs involvement goes any further than that) besides, there are
many dealers out there who do not even test what they have for sale.

>I happen to know that neither system has seen any interest.

so what are your comments on the price of the serge on oldtech? and how do
you know for a fact that there has been no interest in these systems?

Kevin Lightner

>is trying to sell more recent panels and his bids seem to top out around
>the
>$1,000 mark. I certainly find the comment that 'your system is worth
>double'
>to come from cloud cuckoo land.

did i make that comment? if so, its worth that to me, if its not worth that
to someone else than i will keep it, change my price or wait until i find
someone who wants it for that.

>Finally my axe to grind....
>I'm trying to sell a 4 year old, 2 panel system in pretty much mint
>condition for below what I paid for it in 1998.

whats the price?

No serious enquiries. I

>certainly expected to get the odd ' I'll give you two grand for it' punt.
>I'd be interested to know if John Duval has had any enquiries for his 4
>panels.

me too. i thought a while ago he had a sale and most of the panels were
bought, then he listed another round. please correct me if i am wrong.



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What a shame mm123ah that you seem to have a very low threshold for other
peoples views because you make a few good points otherwise.

>What a shame mm123ah that you seem to have a very low threshold for other
>peoples views because you make a few good points otherwise.

I can appreciate other peoples views and sometimes adopt them as my own,
however, there is a small group of friends in the analog synth community who
take pleasure in attacking others in whatever way they possibly can. maybe
matt/blake did not intend for his email to be considered a hostile one but
thats the feeling i got from it, especially after receiving an essentially
anonymous email which made the same points and mentioned taking a poll about
the issues he had with my serge gear on a certain email list or something
like that. anyhow, i didnt see Matt/Blake calling attention to John Duval's
repeated posts about the more recent Serge gear he appears to be having
trouble selling.

> > Matt / Blake's message seemed to me an effort to detract from my offer,
> > which I would not do to anyone else and certainly cant appreciate. If
>you
> > were the seller you would not appreciate it either.
>No, I think you have a good point there.

That was the main point I was trying to make and perhaps M/B and others
should consider this in the future.

> > Check my ebay feedback before you practically imply that I steal peoples
> > money.
>This is obviously where the politeness ends. Have you heard the term
>'bollocks'

yes :)

because that is very much what you are writing.

>I merely pointed out that a great many people prefer to deal with known
>dealers or stores and are therefore prepared to pay a premium for that.
>I wouldn't care to speculate on your character. I was only pointing out
>that
>there was a similar Serge system available through a recognised dealer for
>the same price. It's as simple as that!

OK, but we were talking specifically about an item that i am offering here,
not something some random person with no references is offering. i do not
know too much about AMS's reputation (though some mixed opinions can be
found in the AH archives), however, I would think that people would find
more comfort in seeing what other people have to say about transactions with
another person (as in ebays feedback system) than buying from a dealer or
store with no such unbiased forum of customer review.

> >and how do
> > you know for a fact that there has been no interest in these systems?
> >
>Well because I discussed placing my system on Youdell's client page and he
>pointed out that although I would be welcome he had not had any enquiries
>(at that time) in the two systems he was already listing.

to go off on a slight tangent, does anyone care to comment on the buchla
prices hes got listed? (obviously there are people here who feel they are
better suited to rating prices) ;)

>Partly because I am selling a 2 panel Serge ($3,500)

I'm interested in the

>used value at the moment. A lot of what Matt said rang true with my
>experience i.e. Analogue prices, except for one or two exceptions, are in
>the doldrums and that Serge panels of any vintage are not on most peoples
>'must have' list currently, no matter what the Sergeheads on this list
>think.
>The only two things I've seen sell were K. Lightners Panel 4 with the pitch
>follower

price?

and a newish system in Holland which went for $4,200.

i saw that too. anyone see any early Serge gear sell? If so, what were the
prices? thats what ive had a hard time establishing.

>

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In a message dated 3/27/02 1:44:50 AM, chris@... writes:

<< I'm trying to sell a 4 year old, 2 panel system in pretty much mint
condition for below what I paid for it in 1998. No serious enquiries. I
certainly expected to get the odd ' I'll give you two grand for it' punt.
I'd be interested to know if John Duval has had any enquiries for his 4
panels. >>

Well, now that my comments are asked for ( hehehe) I must say I've been kinda
blown away and amused at this current thread. Here's this gentleman asking
about 2K for a system (old or new makes no diff) and he generates the most
response I've seen here in a couple of months. I post a sale at even higher
prices and no one even bothered to tell me to go piss up a rope. Hahahaha!!!!
LMAO!!! I am haveing fun with this....
I think my asking prices were right in the ballpark but even after posting
to the AH list i haven't had ONE bite. Not even an inquirey. Not even anyone
calling me a greeedy capitalist pig. Darn!!... does anyone even know I'm
here??? LOL
To be honest, i didn't expect much response. Economic times are sucking
folks. Even those on this list with slightley deep pockets are pulling in
their horns. I'm content to sit back and wait. However i have been
considering a price reduction. I really don't see a economic turnaround that
means anything to the average voltage nut for quite some time.
So i guess i will lay low for awhile and see what developes. But gee
guys....... I have 4 new ones coming and I've run out of room!!!! help me out
here.... buy something!!!! LMAO!!!
with a big grin and Kind Regards
John DuVal

In a message dated 3/27/02 7:44:56 AM, chris@... writes:

<< > Check my ebay feedback before you practically imply that I steal peoples

In a message dated 3/27/02 6:17:21 AM, mm123ah@... writes:

<< i thought a while ago he had a sale and most of the panels were
bought, then he listed another round. please correct me if i am wrong.

> Now that the box is open, I guess it would be fair to ask is
> anyone has problems with the prices I'm asking for these panels.

Hey,


Remind us again. What have you got for sale and how much?



Les Mizzell

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Did you ever walk into a room
and forget why you walked in?
I think that's how dogs spend
their lives." -- Sue Murphy
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>

Please ignore all my run-on sentences and gross spelling errors as I've had
way too much COFFEEEeeeee!!!!! this morn.

LOL
John DuVal

Just to make you all feel better (?), I've had zero inquiries on
my little 1-unit custom rack jobbie. And surely $500 is a dandy
price for an acpr, divide by N, and dual asr.
Time are indeed tough -- hope some of my other stuff sells, or
I'll be trying to run my Serge from a shopping cart under a bridge ;-\

cheers,
Bill

----- Original Message -----

> Now that the box is open, i guess it would be fair to ask is anyone has
> problems with the prices I'm asking for these panles.

I don't think it should be a case of that.
Maybe there are a few kind and gentle people who are prepared to sell their
lovely panels on the cheap. Back in the real world I'm sure most people want
to get as much back as possible because that money is earmarked for another
synth purchase or, heaven forbid, buying food/paying the rent.
The market dictates the price. We are all obviously asking too much at the
moment. I'm heartened to see that no one else has sold much. I was feeling
neglected.
As John says, it's time to hunker down and wait until conditions improve
unless you really need to sell in which case it's time to get real and slash
those prices. There just ain't a big Serge market out there.
On the question of the Buchlas. I had the same thing in mind, Serge's are
too expensive so aren't selling, Buchlas must be the same. A few of the
Buchlas have been listed on Chris Youdell's site for quite a while.
On enquiring I found that most had sold. There are two 200 systems available
both requiring offers of between $15,000 and $20,000. These are the vendors
prices and nothing to do with Chris Youdell, although he may have advised on
what the 'market' was doing.
CW

In a message dated 3/27/02 10:29:53 AM, bfelton@... writes:

<< Just to make you all feel better (?), I've had zero inquiries on
my little 1-unit custom rack jobbie. And surely $500 is a dandy
price for an acpr, divide by N, and dual asr. >>

this is indeed a dandy little unit that i had the pleasure of fooling around
with for awhile. My partner Dave Fulton offered it to me for about the same
price but i passed and it wound up in Pauls hands (MOTM)
John

Hi John

I'm was very tempted by your panel with the EQ, etc. (Panel #1 in the order
you put them in an email I have somewhere)... I think the price was $2,250.

The price reduction on what you paid new was $500 I believe? In UK terms
that's
only a saving of £350 or so. That's not enough of a bargain for me
'personally' and not a criticism
at all of your prices.

Add to that the need for me to buy a new PS from Rex to accommodate any more
panels (I have a PS4 and its maxed out already with
my 4 panels) and it just wasn't tempting enough for me.

Rather than email you and haggle (not my style :-)) I was just going to wait
in the hope you got desperate! LOL! and lowered
your prices.

Maybe others like me are doing the same???

As for the Buchla prices... I recently made an offer of £6000 (around $8000)
for a superb Series 200 system. The guy
selling said he'd had offers for double that amount and still wanted more
:-(.

I guess my offer was pretty low, but only cos I had no precedent to go on
with Buchla... I doubt if there are any Buchla systems in the UK
at all. Then I saw C. Youdell's prices and felt pretty bad for making such a
low offer... I hate timewasters and he probably thought I was one too.

What I can't understand is the producers out there making really big bucks
not buying this stuff! They are beautifully designed and musically unique
not to mention 'genuinely' rare.

KD

>I'm was very tempted by your panel with the EQ, etc. (Panel #1 in the order
>you put them in an email I have somewhere)... I think the price was $2,250.

sorry I meant Delay not eq.

KD

In a message dated 3/27/02 12:44:41 PM, opart@... writes:

<< The price reduction on what you paid new was $500 I believe? In UK terms

that's

only a saving of £350 or so. That's not enough of a bargain for me

'personally' and not a criticism

at all of your prices >>

Fair enough and a point well taken. I had given scant attention to the fact
that most people interested in this system will probably need a PS 4 or more
likely a PS 6. That may factor into my considerations if i feel it necessary
to post a price drop 'cause i'm starving. LOL Thanks for the post
Kind regards
John DuVal