Mellotronists

Anyone noticed the recent addition to the front page of the Streetly  
web-site?
There's a light on the distant horizon. Something is  
coming...Something...Wonderful.....
Tomorrow maybe sooner than we all think..
Andy K
PS..Sorry for all the Cliche's......but this is so exciting!
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com)

At 05:23 PM 9/23/2006, kinchmusic@... wrote:
>Anyone noticed the recent addition to the front page of the Streetly web-site?

Not seein' it.  Anyone?

If you are referring to the M4000, that's been there for quite a while.

...kl...
M400 #805 - lid just barely on the front page of one web site
M400 #1037 - nyaah-nyaah, i've got a full frontal shot!

----- Original Message -----

From: kinchmusic@...

To: mellotronists@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:23 PM

Subject: [Mellotronists] Streetly Web-site

Anyone noticed the recent addition to the front page of the Streetly web-site?

There's a light on the distant horizon. Something is coming...Something...Wonderful.....

Tomorrow maybe sooner than we all think..

Andy K

PS..Sorry for all the Cliche's......but this is so exciting!

www.mellotronics.com

In a message dated 23/09/2006 23:38:00 GMT Standard Time,  
Str03@... writes:

A black  Monolith?



You can also have it in time honoured white!
 
HAL aka Andy K

In a message dated 23/09/2006 23:56:08 GMT Standard Time, ken@...  
writes:

If you  are referring to the M4000, that's been there for quite a  while.


 
Sorry Ken, yes I am. 
It's just that I've not noticed it before, or have I heard anyone here make  
mention of it's appearance on the web-sites front page, so I thought I would 
do  so.
Why hasn't there been more reaction from everyone. I know the new Streetly  
machine is the worst kept secret on this list. But really, I would have thought 
 that the first Mellotron to be built here in the UK by the company that made 
the  original in 30 years would have created more than a passing interest.
AND from what I hear, this will a Mellotron unlike any that has gone  before. 
This will be no M400 remake. After all, JB and MS have been there,  done 
that, bought the tee shirt. Why would they want to do that? Simply trying  to 
recreate the past would be a waste of resources, when much much more  could be 
achieved.
The only way forward would be to create a machine that is so awesome in  it's 
power and versatility, whilst retaining the iconic appearance we all know.  
Yet combining the very best of analogue and digital technology, to breathe new  
life into the machine we all know and love. Not that I know the full story by 
 any means, but I've a feeling when this thing breaks it's going to be huge.  
Wouldn't it be a pity if suddenly it was embraced by the world-wide music  
industry and we were all siting here scratching our heads not knowing the  
significance of what was going on.
Brace yourselves.
Andy K

And what will be digital in the new Streeltly tron??

/Nick

kinchmusic@... wrote:

> In a message dated 23/09/2006 23:56:08 GMT Standard Time, 
> ken@... writes:
>
>     If you are referring to the M4000, that's been there for quite a
>     while.
>
> Sorry Ken, yes I am.
> It's just that I've not noticed it before, or have I heard anyone here 
> make mention of it's appearance on the web-sites front page, so I 
> thought I would do so.
> Why hasn't there been more reaction from everyone. I know the new 
> Streetly machine is the worst kept secret on this list. But really, I 
> would have thought that the first Mellotron to be built here in the UK 
> by the company that made the original in 30 years would have created 
> more than a passing interest.
> AND from what I hear, this will a Mellotron unlike any that has gone 
> before. This will be no M400 remake. After all, JB and MS have been 
> there, done that, bought the tee shirt. Why would they want to do 
> that? Simply trying to recreate the past would be a waste of 
> resources, when much much more could be achieved.
> The only way forward would be to create a machine that is so awesome 
> in it's power and versatility, whilst retaining the iconic appearance 
> we all know. Yet combining the very best of analogue and digital 
> technology, to breathe new life into the machine we all know and love. 
> Not that I know the full story by any means, but I've a feeling when 
> this thing breaks it's going to be huge. Wouldn't it be a pity if 
> suddenly it was embraced by the world-wide music industry and we were 
> all siting here scratching our heads not knowing the significance of 
> what was going on.
> Brace yourselves.
> Andy K
>

Andy, do you know something that the rest of us don't know?

Bernie

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, kinchmusic@... wrote:
>
>  
> In a message dated 23/09/2006 23:56:08 GMT Standard Time, ken@...  
> writes:
> 
> If you  are referring to the M4000, that's been there for quite a  
while.
> 
> 
>  
> Sorry Ken, yes I am. 
> It's just that I've not noticed it before, or have I heard anyone 
here make  
> mention of it's appearance on the web-sites front page, so I 
thought I would 
> do  so.
> Why hasn't there been more reaction from everyone. I know the new 
Streetly  
> machine is the worst kept secret on this list. But really, I would 
have thought 
>  that the first Mellotron to be built here in the UK by the 
company that made 
> the  original in 30 years would have created more than a passing 
interest.
> AND from what I hear, this will a Mellotron unlike any that has 
gone  before. 
> This will be no M400 remake. After all, JB and MS have been 
there,  done 
> that, bought the tee shirt. Why would they want to do that? Simply 
trying  to 
> recreate the past would be a waste of resources, when much much 
more  could be 
> achieved.
> The only way forward would be to create a machine that is so 
awesome in  it's 
> power and versatility, whilst retaining the iconic appearance we 
all know.  
> Yet combining the very best of analogue and digital technology, to 
breathe new  
> life into the machine we all know and love. Not that I know the 
full story by 
>  any means, but I've a feeling when this thing breaks it's going 
to be huge.  
> Wouldn't it be a pity if suddenly it was embraced by the world-
wide music  
> industry and we were all siting here scratching our heads not 
knowing the  

> significance of what was going on.
> Brace yourselves.
> Andy K
>

In a message dated 9/23/2006 8:35:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
lsf5275@... writes:

A mix of something new and something with some heritage I  suspect.



Jeez, how much frivolous speculation can we do?  (LOL)
      Does it have reverse  keys?
     Are there any digital aspects on the new  design?
      Is it a cycling  machine?
     Will it be available in pastel  shades? (sorry KL!)
    Does it come with a fur-lined 3-arse  bench?
      Can it brew the morning  coffee?
Just wait for Streetly to reveal the damn thing!
BTW, just how much longer, lads?
 
Frank 1

In a message dated 24/09/2006 02:18:59 GMT Standard Time, kornowicz@...  
writes:

Andy, do you know something that the rest of us don't  know?
 
Not much. All I wanted to say was that I'm sure that when Streetly have  
finalised specification and price they'll let us know. They have a right to  
promote their new baby in any way they deem fit, best of luck to them. I know  
above everything, they want it to succeed for obvious reasons, and to do that  it 
will have to offer something different to what is currently available  
anywhere on the planet!
I guess had they just simply gone for an updated m400 we would have  known 
all about it long before now, after all they could probably build those  in 
their sleep!
I'm sure that their plan is to produce a machine, note the word  "machine" 
not "sampler". That will not only blow our minds, but obviously will  be so 
"different" that it will generate sales (after all at the end of the day  MS and 
JB need to make a living) from a world-wide market that seems to still  have an 
appetite for things that have a "retro" tag whilst still being  practical 
and, dare I say it Iconic. Also, I'm sure they would love it if a  few on this 
list might did deep into their pockets, as I'm sure some  have already have.
Cheers.
Andy K

I'd love to see something akin to Justin Mayer's J-Tron (in appearance anyway)....sleek, 
state of the art circuitry, 16 track tape, built in digital efx & EQ, and industrial strength 
motors...combining the best assets of both the Chamberlin and Mellotron designs.
 I mean really, how far can you take the concept of a keyboard activated/pinch roller 
moving a tape across a head? The Mellotron 4-Track was a good idea that didn't take 
off...separate outs for each track etc. The selling points of the M4000 will be the sound 
quality and stability.
  Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, nowadays there probably aren't a whole lot of 
folks who give a rat's ass about a new machine like this...just the hard core "enlightened" 
few like those here who know. Is Joe Public really going to care whether or not Fiona Apple 
is using samples or an M4000? Will any amount of technical improvements or innovation 
talk Mike Pinder out of using samples?

> From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
   > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:25:22 -0000
   > 
   > I mean really, how far can you take the concept of a keyboard
   > activated/pinch roller moving a tape across a head? 

With some imagination, creativity, design and engineering, there a lot
you can do...

   > Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, nowadays there
   > probably aren't a whole lot of folks who give a rat's ass about a
   > new machine like this...just the hard core "enlightened" few like
   > those here who know. Is Joe Public really going to care whether
   > or not Fiona Apple is using samples or an M4000? Will any amount
   > of technical improvements or innovation talk Mike Pinder out of
   > using samples?

You have a point in the sense that today's musical instrument market
has pretty much reduced a keyboard instrument to a plastic-box-with-a-
computer-inside".  The products they're delivering aren't actually
Musical Instruments, and as such it's really hard to find any great
performances on them.

Which leaves the market for real keyboard Musical Instruments wide
open.  There's actually a ton of opportunity here.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
>
>    > From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
>    > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:25:22 -0000
>    > 
>    > I mean really, how far can you take the concept of a keyboard
>    > activated/pinch roller moving a tape across a head? 
> 
> With some imagination, creativity, design and engineering, there a lot
> you can do...

Care to elaborate? Like what...maybe a dat tape mellotron? Or using 24 track heads?:) Or 
VHS tape? Where there's any mechanical process involved with myriad adjustments there's 
always gonna be some problems down the road...
  I personally like the Memotron idea....take the whole tron/Chamberlin library into one 
high quality digital playback instrument...more like a digital MK2 with audiophile speaker 
system built in & high quality efx,eq, and so on.


> 
>    > Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, nowadays there
>    > probably aren't a whole lot of folks who give a rat's ass about a
>    > new machine like this...just the hard core "enlightened" few like
>    > those here who know. Is Joe Public really going to care whether
>    > or not Fiona Apple is using samples or an M4000? Will any amount
>    > of technical improvements or innovation talk Mike Pinder out of
>    > using samples?
> 
> You have a point in the sense that today's musical instrument market
> has pretty much reduced a keyboard instrument to a plastic-box-with-a-
> computer-inside".  


as opposed to wooden box with tape recordings inside? What makes any instrument 
MUSICAL is the artist playing it...not the technology involved. You could make a whole 
album on rubber bands,combs, and jews harp. (hey there's an idea for new tron tapes...)
 Although to a point I agree with you about some of the homogenized aspects of the 
sounds coming out of a digital synth...

> 
> Which leaves the market for real keyboard Musical Instruments wide
> open.  There's actually a ton of opportunity here.
> 
>   -- Don
> 
> -- 
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don@...
> http://www.till.com
>

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, 

Some interesting things about how far you can go on development, but 
one must ask how far should you go before the overall sound loses its 
identity and starts to sound like anything else.  I think for those 
who own and operate these most would agree that reliability seems to 
weigh above all else.  The key element is how the sound of a Tron 
captivated us to begin with.  Everyone has heard for example the 8 
voice choir time and again. Last week I decided to bring the sampler 
along with the 400 and during one song got the urge to load the choir 
and when that chord hit people looked up.  It still hits me the same 
way it did when I first heard it years ago.  Yeah it would be nice to 
have 6 banks of sound instead of 3, but I would rather have the sound 
characteristics that makes this thing unique maybe with a bit more 
reliability.    Doug m400#703

> From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
   > Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:31:09 -0000
   > 
   > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
   > > 
   > > With some imagination, creativity, design and engineering, there a lot
   > > you can do...
   > 
   > Care to elaborate?  Like what...maybe a dat tape mellotron? Or
   > using 24 track heads?:) Or VHS tape?

None of those are really practical.  (Trying to imagine the VHS
mechanism respond to playing a note is absolutely hilarious!)

Here are a bunch of possibilities:

  Use the Chamberlin rewind mechanism.
 
  Refine the pressure pad mechanism to get more pressure control.
  Maybe adjustable pressure control.

  Wire the tape heads for a stereo pan.

  Tape echo built in with the tapes.  Sound on sound too.

  More tracks; you could probably fit 12 tracks on 3/8-inch tape, 
  with a stereo 8-track head to pull off two tracks at a time.

  Include a RhythmMate mechanism, since drum machines are so popular
  with the young people these days.

  Come up with a way for the 'tron to record tapes.  You could have a
  USB connection and download a custom set of sounds.

  Optical tron, record on film.  (!?!?)

  Vibrato by modulating the motor speed (I tried that, it's truly
  awful... I'm just sayin'...)

See, it's not difficult.  There really are lots of possibilities.

   > Where there's any mechanical process involved with myriad
   > adjustments there's always gonna be some problems down the
   > road...

So all musical instruments involving a mechanical proces are doomed to
failure?  Tell that to Steinway.

   > I personally like the Memotron idea....take the whole
   > tron/Chamberlin library into one high quality digital playback
   > instrument...more like a digital MK2 with audiophile speaker
   > system built in & high quality efx,eq, and so on.

I think the Memotron is effectively putting a Casio behind a cardboard
cutout of a Mellotron.  It completely removes the wonderful expressive
operation of the Mellotron, it has completely gratuitious limitations
just to copy the Mellotron, and it offers nothing of its own.

   > as opposed to wooden box with tape recordings inside? What makes
   > any instrument MUSICAL is the artist playing it...not the
   > technology involved.

That sounds like the marxist academic philosophy that says that
"anything that can make a sound that could possibly be used for music
is a musical instrument".  Which is immediately followed by "no
musical instruments are inherently better than others", and "if you
think otherwise we're gonna brand you as an elitist snob we're gonna
send the stormtroopers over to impound your Steinway grand and replace
it with a Casio".  And so craftsmanship in musical instrument
construction would be a waste of time and money, keeping Casios from
the proletariat and generally causing unrest, so we'll be jailing the
craftsmen too.

Frank Zappa could make music out of absolutely anything; are the
stoner mumblings and "snorks" heard on "Lumpy Gravy" musical
instruments?

And there might not even be a requirement that the thing make a sound.
What about the piano in Cage's 4'33''?  What about Bruford's drums in
King Crimson's "Trio"?

So *anything* is a musical instrument?  Does the term have any meaning
whatsover?  Is a trash can lid the musical equivalent of a Mellotron,
and if so, would you have any objections to me taking the Mellotron
and leaving you with the trash can lid?

As Casio and the other digital sample players have shown us, making a
specific sound is the least important thing that a musical instrument
does.  You can play back an exact copy of a sound of a proper Musical
Instrument yet the exact copy is not a musical instrument.  We should
know this... lip syncing has been around a very long time and deals
with similar issues.  You go to a concert to experience a performance,
not a recording.

What is important is that the instrument inspire the musician, it
serves as the voice of the musician, it allows the musician to have
their personality shine through, it is the vehicle for the music
listeners to hear the musician.  The musical instrument needs depth
and quirks, it needs sweet spots that beckon to be explored.  It
invites the musician to develop playing techniques and provides
rewards along the way.

In practice, it's the process that the instrument uses to create the
sound that makes it, not the sound itself.  The musician interacts
with the process, guides it, molds it, shapes it, tweaks it, has a
conversation with it, and this is where the magic can happen, this is
the level that the musician works at.  This is what artists do,
whether it's paint, ceramics, dance, whatever.

The Mellotron works not as a sample player, but as an instrument in
its own right.  The process of pulling sound off of a magnetic tape
under your fingers is remarkably musical and expressive, so much so
that what's actually recorded on the tape matters less than the
operation of playing it back.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
>
>    > From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
>    > Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:31:09 -0000
>    > 
>    > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@> wrote:
>    > > 
>    > > With some imagination, creativity, design and engineering, there a lot
>    > > you can do...
>    > 
>    > Care to elaborate?  Like what...maybe a dat tape mellotron? Or
>    > using 24 track heads?:) Or VHS tape?
> 
> None of those are really practical.  (Trying to imagine the VHS
> mechanism respond to playing a note is absolutely hilarious!)
 
well Don I was referring to the actual tape, not the mechanism....but really wasn't too 
serious anyway;)



> 
>    > Where there's any mechanical process involved with myriad
>    > adjustments there's always gonna be some problems down the
>    > road...
> 
> So all musical instruments involving a mechanical proces are doomed to
> failure?  Tell that to Steinway.

Don-you're putting words in my mouth....I never said "failure" but "problems"....yes even 
Steinways go outta tune & piano wires break (however rarely)
  In defense of my love of trons, in the 25 years I owned my 400 I only probably had 3 tape 
breaks and one of the large blue capacitors on the motor card blow...but I had an Anvil 
ATA case and was usually on one end of it when it was moved.

And calling the Memotron a Casio is a bit of a stretch...it's exactly what it set out to be- a 
digital clone of a tron for those who would like to tour with the original sounds and 
something a bit more reliable( and more readlily accessible than a sampler) and still have 
something slightly resembling the original ala Korg's C/BX-3s or the other Hammond 
clones. I imagine the Memotron is a bit less heavy to transport as well;)

> Which leaves the market for real keyboard Musical Instruments wide
> open.  There's actually a ton of opportunity here.

That presupposes there are enough people out there who would want or use
one. Maybe there are, but the fact is that what sells are plastic boxes
with funny buttons on top that go bleep when you push them. Mellotrons
have a reputation - rightly or wrongly - for being large, heavy and
unreliable but sounding great. If you can get over the hump of the
problems then there are all the audio benefits to be enjoyed.

Unfortunately, from what I hear these days it seems that everyone is
tone deaf and has no sense of taste whatsoever.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

>   Come up with a way for the 'tron to record tapes.  You could have a
>   USB connection and download a custom set of sounds.

USB...and *tape*?

>    > as opposed to wooden box with tape recordings inside? What makes
>    > any instrument MUSICAL is the artist playing it...not the
>    > technology involved.
>
> That sounds like the marxist academic philosophy that says that
> "anything that can make a sound that could possibly be used for music
> is a musical instrument".

I'm not sure what your problem with that definition is. Music is simply
sound gathered together in some way; whether it has rhythm, harmony or
melody is up to the composer. What makes it music is the composer's
will. You might not like the sound it, but that is a matter of taste.

> Frank Zappa could make music out of absolutely anything; are the
> stoner mumblings and "snorks" heard on "Lumpy Gravy" musical
> instruments?

Of course!

> So *anything* is a musical instrument?  Does the term have any meaning
> whatsover?  Is a trash can lid the musical equivalent of a Mellotron,
> and if so, would you have any objections to me taking the Mellotron
> and leaving you with the trash can lid?

I'd have a problem with you taking the Mellotron and leaving me with a
clarinet - undoubtedly a musical instrument - because I cannot play it.

> You can play back an exact copy of a sound of a proper Musical
> Instrument yet the exact copy is not a musical instrument.

That is -breathtakingly- wrong. Aside from anything else, is that not
the way a Mellotron works?

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

> From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
   > Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:31:03 -0000
   > 
   > Don-you're putting words in my mouth....I never said "failure"
   > but "problems"....yes even Steinways go outta tune & piano wires
   > break (however rarely)

I meant to say "market failure".  In the music biz today it's assumed
that keyboard players will freak out if the instrument weighs more
than a few pounds, or if it needs tuning, needs regular maintenance,
or requires technique or skills.  In other words, that keyboard
players are complete weenies.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to a
certain degree.  

Mechanical instruments are actually a huge advantage -- when something
goes wrong on the road it's impossible for the musician to fix a
digital sampler, while there's a ton of stuff you can do to bring a
real keyboard ('tron, electric piano, tonewheel organ, etc.) back up
with basic tools.

   > And calling the Memotron a Casio is a bit of a stretch...

I think it's an awful lot closer to a Casio than to a Mellotron.
Heck, it may even be a Casio inside.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

> From: tron@...
   > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 05:48:42 GMT
   > 
   > I'm not sure what your problem with that definition is. Music is
   > simply sound gathered together in some way; whether it has
   > rhythm, harmony or melody is up to the composer. What makes it
   > music is the composer's will. You might not like the sound it,
   > but that is a matter of taste.

Sure, I have no problem with that.  My complaint is with extending the
meaning of Musical Instrument to include anything that could make a
sound, thereby removing any signficance from the term.

   > > Frank Zappa could make music out of absolutely anything; are the
   > > stoner mumblings and "snorks" heard on "Lumpy Gravy" musical
   > > instruments?
   > 
   > Of course!

Well there ya go.  Shouldn't musicians have the artistic freedom to
use things that aren't musical instruments in their compositions?  But
as soon as they do, your automatically expanding defintion of musical
instrument instantly subsumes those things, immediately defeating the
composer's very wishes.  That's not right.

Can't a painter use things that aren't paint on a canvas?  Sure.  But
as soon as they place, say, sand on the canvas do you immediately
expand the defintion of paint to include sand?  Of course not.

   > > You can play back an exact copy of a sound of a proper Musical
   > > Instrument yet the exact copy is not a musical instrument.
   > 
   > That is -breathtakingly- wrong. Aside from anything else, is that not
   > the way a Mellotron works?

Nah, the Mellotron doesn't provide an exact copy of the sound of
another instrument, for that you'd get a digital sampler.  The
Mellotron contributes its own musical process and its own musical
qualities, which is why we like it so much.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

In a message dated 26/09/2006 09:17:04 GMT Standard Time, don@...  
writes:

The
Mellotron contributes its own musical process and its own  musical
qualities, which is why we like it so  much.



I don't like them.
 
M
 

STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
_www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
www.mellotronics.com

US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397) @...
US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
(mailto:pjc56@...)

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
My complaint is with extending the meaning of Musical Instrument to 
include anything that could make a sound, thereby removing any 
signficance from the term.

Musical Instrument: Any device that can be used to produce musical 
sounds.  If that definition diminishes the "significance" of the 
term...  What's the problem?  Don't worry about it.

If you restrict the definition, you will have a hell of a time 
deciding what IS on the MI list.  If a digital sampler doesn't belong 
on the MI list, then perhaps a VCS3 doesn't belong either.

My grandfather would say that real Musical Instruments don't require 
electricity !

Clay

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, tron@... wrote:
 
MD> That is -breathtakingly- wrong.
 
DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

MD> What?

SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!  YOU 
VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

MD> Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse! You want room 12A, next door.

MD> Oh...Sorry...

Not at all!

MD> stupid git.

Seriously now.  Suggesting that digital samplers are not musical 
instruments is just nonsense.  Samplers have been inspiring 
musicians and composers to create some great stuff over many years.  
(one example: Hans Zimmer's soundtracks).  

Wasn't the Fairlight a digital sampler?  Did anyone do anything 
creative with that?

Clay

> From: "ceccles_ca" <ecclesreinson@...>
   > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:40:32 -0000
   >
   > If you restrict the definition, you will have a hell of a time 
   > deciding what IS on the MI list.  If a digital sampler doesn't belong 
   > on the MI list, then perhaps a VCS3 doesn't belong either.

Okay, let's try an experiment... bring a musician into a room with a
digital sampler and a VCS3.  Have him stand in front of each and
measure his heartbeat.  That would be the Touring Test for musical
instruments.  (I'm kidding.  Well, maybe not.)

Y'know, I'd sure like to say that a digital sampler doesn't belong on
the Musical Instrument list, but therein lies the issue.  Why bother
with the low end so much?  Why be so concerned about what legitimizing
questionable stuff when you could be making better musical
instruments?  I'm interested in the high end.  Where is the research
to make instruments that are truly cherished by the musician?  Where
is the develoment of something that will enable and inspire the next
Hendrix or Coltrane?

This is a major problem with the instrument industry; with almost 30
freaking years digital development in the music world, you'd think
that they would have provided some truly kick ass musical instruments
by now.  (And that's 30 years of development subsidized by the
computer industry and powered by Moore's Law, equivalent to centuries
of development in any other field.)  But no, they spend all their
efforts faking Hammonds, faking Rhodes', faking pianos, faking
Mellotrons faking violins.

There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital sampler, and it's
really difficult to name a truly great solo played on a digital
machine.  Compare that to the way we on this list gush over the intro
to "Watcher of the Skies".

So, yeah, I'm thankful that we have the Mellotron Archives Mark VI and
whatever Streetly is developing.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

In a message dated 9/26/2006 4:04:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
tron@... writes:

That  really is the most frightful baloney, Don! What you are saying that
only  *rubbish* or *lo-fi* samplers can be classified as musical
instruments!  Better throw away your Fairlight, Norm; you've just wasted
your  money.

Mike Dickson (_tron@...@blactr_ (mailto:tron@...) 
)  M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample  Library _http://www.blackcathttp://wwwhttp://w_ 
(http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/) 



Yeah, Norm. And just throw it over to me.
 
Frank 2
 
waiting patiently for Norm's rubbish.

> Sure, I have no problem with that.  My complaint is with extending the
> meaning of Musical Instrument to include anything that could make a
> sound, thereby removing any signficance from the term.

So remove it. Players of the Gamelan have no word for 'musician' as
everyone does it. It's like having a word for someone who breathes. I
fail to understand why you think that you can only make music from
musical instruments. After all, this is what you are saying.

>    > > Frank Zappa could make music out of absolutely anything; are the
>    > > stoner mumblings and "snorks" heard on "Lumpy Gravy" musical
>    > > instruments?
>    >
>    > Of course!
>
> Well there ya go.  Shouldn't musicians have the artistic freedom to
> use things that aren't musical instruments in their compositions?  But
> as soon as they do, your automatically expanding defintion of musical
> instrument instantly subsumes those things, immediately defeating the
> composer's very wishes.  That's not right.

It isn't? How do you know what the composer's wishes are? If the
composer wants to make music by recording the sound of him eating
cornflakes, it's music. If he wills it to be music, then that is what it
is. Whether you -like- it or not is down to you.

> Can't a painter use things that aren't paint on a canvas?  Sure.  But
> as soon as they place, say, sand on the canvas do you immediately
> expand the defintion of paint to include sand?  Of course not.

That's a weak analogy. The first 'painters' didn't use paint at all. Why
do you find any importance on labelling the component parts like this?

>    > > You can play back an exact copy of a sound of a proper Musical
>    > > Instrument yet the exact copy is not a musical instrument.
>    >
>    > That is -breathtakingly- wrong. Aside from anything else, is that not
>    > the way a Mellotron works?
>
> Nah, the Mellotron doesn't provide an exact copy of the sound of
> another instrument, for that you'd get a digital sampler.  The
> Mellotron contributes its own musical process and its own musical
> qualities, which is why we like it so much.

That really is the most frightful baloney, Don! What you are saying that
only *rubbish* or *lo-fi* samplers can be classified as musical
instruments! Better throw away your Fairlight, Norm; you've just wasted
your money.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

> From: tron@...
   > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:50:28 GMT
   > 
   > > Don:
   > > Well there ya go.  Shouldn't musicians have the artistic
   > > freedom to use things that aren't musical instruments in their
   > > compositions?  But as soon as they do, your automatically
   > > expanding defintion of musical instrument instantly subsumes
   > > those things, immediately defeating the composer's very wishes.
   > > That's not right.
   > 
   > It isn't? How do you know what the composer's wishes are?  If the
   > composer wants to make music by recording the sound of him eating
   > cornflakes, it's music. If he wills it to be music, then that is
   > what it is. Whether you -like- it or not is down to you.

Um, yeah, that's exactly what I said.  (Oh, I get it, it's the
Argument Clinic!)

Sure, whatever the composer wants is completely fine for a musical
work.

I just think it's very strange to suddenly start calling conflakes a
musical instrument just because they were used in a composition.  Do
you disagree?

   > > Nah, the Mellotron doesn't provide an exact copy of the sound of
   > > another instrument, for that you'd get a digital sampler.  The
   > > Mellotron contributes its own musical process and its own musical
   > > qualities, which is why we like it so much.
   > 
   > That really is the most frightful baloney, Don! What you are
   > saying that only *rubbish* or *lo-fi* samplers can be classified
   > as musical instruments! Better throw away your Fairlight, Norm;
   > you've just wasted your money.

I said "musical process", not "rubbish" or "lo-fi".  I absolutely do
not see how you get from one to the other.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

Turntables are instruments!!!! Say it aloud and in front of a mirror, Boldly and with conviction!
 
 
 Fritz
 
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

In a message dated 9/26/2006 5:15:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
fdoddy@... writes:

Turntables are instruments!Tur  Say it aloud and in front of  a mirror,  
Boldly and with conviction!



So are empty 5 gallon paint containers. Oh, and spoons... Let's not forget  
them.

In a message dated 26/09/2006 16:00:05 GMT Daylight Time,  
ecclesreinson@... writes:

Wasn't  the Fairlight a digital sampler?


Only one page of the menu system deals with sampling (it was an  
afterthought) the rest of it was an extremely good additive /  wavetable synth.
 
Point is if you sample anything with a Fairlight it comes out different to  
how it went in but in a good musical way. I was being ironic when I recorded 
the  Fairlight for the Mellotron library but the result was stunning, the 
Mellotron's  reproduction of the Fairlight is much closer to the original than other 
high end  samplers that I have tried. That was even more ironic than I could 
have hoped  for.
 
Norm

lsf5275@... wrote:

>  In a message dated 9/26/2006 5:15:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> fdoddy@... writes:
>
>      Turntables are instruments!!!!  Say it aloud and in front of a
>      mirror,  Boldly and with conviction!
>
> So are empty 5 gallon paint containers. Oh, and spoons... Let's not forget
> them.

_________________________________________________________________


Let's not forget PDQ Bach,  a.k.a. Peter Shickele  (sp).

His most "classic" and forgettable piece "Opus for Clarinet
and Water Closet."  Didn't you mention something once Martin,
about  blowing a tuba  mouthpiece into a septic tank ?
......There ya' go .......

....And those two spoon-players featured occasionally on "Hee-Haw."
Personally,  I watched the show just to see Lisa Todd, and other
healthy corn-fed Southern country gals....

See Y'all   --Buck and Roy   ( I'm a pickin', and I'm a grinnin' )

In a message dated 9/26/2006 7:38:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jkorb@... writes:

Didn't you mention something once Martin,  
about  blowing a tuba  mouthpiece  into a septic tank ?


God, I hope he never inhaled! But... you neverrrrr  knowwww.

Wind Synths:
Yamaha WX5 Wind Controller, VL70M Tone Generator.
Looks like a Clarinet.  Same fingering as a Tenor Sax.  Spit drips on 
your shoes like a Sax too!  The Yamaha patches (voices) are good, but 
the best VL-70 sounds come from a 3rd party - Patchman.  Pitch bending 
with lips and right thumb.  Octave switching with left thumb (7 
octaves).  It does a great job with Alto and Tenor Sax and trumpet.

My favorite sounds are:
Pat Metheny lead guitar
Stand up bass
Synth Strings (sounds like an ARP Pro Soloist with the string setting)
Taurus Bass Pedals

Michael Brecker plays Tenor Sax and Wind Synth.  (The Hendrix of this 
digital Musical Instrument ?)  Audiences are a bit stunned when they 
hear Taurus bass pedal sounds coming out of his Clarinet thing!

Clay

ceccles_ca wrote:

> Wind Synths:
> Yamaha WX5 Wind Controller, VL70M Tone Generator.
> Looks like a Clarinet.  Same fingering as a Tenor Sax.  Spit drips on
> your shoes like a Sax too!  The Yamaha patches (voices) are good, but
> the best VL-70 sounds come from a 3rd party - Patchman.  Pitch bending
> with lips and right thumb.  Octave switching with left thumb (7
> octaves).  It does a great job with Alto and Tenor Sax and trumpet.
>
> My favorite sounds are:
> Pat Metheny lead guitar
> Stand up bass
> Synth Strings (sounds like an ARP Pro Soloist with the string setting)
> Taurus Bass Pedals
>
> Michael Brecker plays Tenor Sax and Wind Synth.  (The Hendrix of this
> digital Musical Instrument ?)  Audiences are a bit stunned when they
> hear Taurus bass pedal sounds coming out of his Clarinet thing!
>
> Clay

__________________________________________________________________


Hi Clay and Gang,   Patrick Moraz used an awesome 8-voice
dual keyboard Oberheim atop his MK-V during the Moodies' years.
Wonder if he still has it.....

Speaking of MK-V, Novatron #104 was recently refurbed inside
and soon will be in the hands of its new owner.  Future MONEYPIT
Website with Ken Leonard pending.....like in the future pending......

Cheers,  Mr. Pat Pending

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
>
>    > From: "ceccles_ca" <ecclesreinson@...>
>    > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:40:32 -0000
>    >
>    > If you restrict the definition, you will have a hell of a 
time 
>    > deciding what IS on the MI list.  If a digital sampler 
doesn't belong 
>    > on the MI list, then perhaps a VCS3 doesn't belong either.
> 
> Okay, let's try an experiment... bring a musician into a room with 
a
> digital sampler and a VCS3.  Have him stand in front of each and
> measure his heartbeat.  That would be the Touring Test for musical
> instruments.  (I'm kidding.  Well, maybe not.)
> 
> Y'know, I'd sure like to say that a digital sampler doesn't belong 
on
> the Musical Instrument list, but therein lies the issue.  Why 
bother
> with the low end so much?  Why be so concerned about what 
legitimizing
> questionable stuff when you could be making better musical
> instruments?  I'm interested in the high end.  Where is the 
research
> to make instruments that are truly cherished by the musician?  
Where
> is the develoment of something that will enable and inspire the 
next
> Hendrix or Coltrane?
> 
> This is a major problem with the instrument industry; with almost 
30
> freaking years digital development in the music world, you'd think
> that they would have provided some truly kick ass musical 
instruments
> by now.  (And that's 30 years of development subsidized by the
> computer industry and powered by Moore's Law, equivalent to 
centuries
> of development in any other field.)  But no, they spend all their
> efforts faking Hammonds, faking Rhodes', faking pianos, faking
> Mellotrons faking violins.
> 
> There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital sampler, and it's
> really difficult to name a truly great solo played on a digital
> machine.  Compare that to the way we on this list gush over the 
intro
> to "Watcher of the Skies".
> 
> So, yeah, I'm thankful that we have the Mellotron Archives Mark VI 
and
> whatever Streetly is developing.
> 
>   -- Don
> 
>Well most of this seems agreeable, but the new wave of synths and 
samplers of the late 70's and 80's were a new page in the books and 
the people who made use of them such as Giorgio Moroder, Vangelis, 
Tomita, Walter Carlos, Jean Michael Jarre, Brian Eno etc. all 
contributed amongst countless others, sampled sounds, in context 
something you could not do without the sampler.  Like anything else 
these can be put to good use  by creative minds or abused by ripping 
off other peoples work. Samplers and trons are similar in respect 
that what goes in comes out somewhat different.
I am also grateful to the Mellotron Archives and Streetly's and God 
bless them because if it were not for them we probably would not be 
having this discussion today.   Respectfully, Pat NT Pending  
M400#703

In a message dated 9/27/2006 1:04:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
tron@... writes:

Here's  a thought; are drums a musical instrument?



Not unless they're made from empty 5 gallon plastic buckets and mercilessly  
beaten on while a bunch of others jump up and down to the beat. Oh, and this  
must take place on the corner of a busy intersection on a Saturday evening 
when  you're out trying to find a nice place to eat. Then, the buckets are  
instruments, and the players are musicians. (Unless, of course, you are like me  
and don't really count drummers as musicians at all, which then completely  
negates everything I just wrote.)
 
Frank (growing more and more restless by the  moment)

> I just think it's very strange to suddenly start calling conflakes a
> musical instrument just because they were used in a composition.  Do
> you disagree?

Absolutely. What do you think the term means?

>    > > Mellotron contributes its own musical process and its own musical
>    > > qualities, which is why we like it so much.
>    >
>    > That really is the most frightful baloney, Don! What you are
>    > saying that only *rubbish* or *lo-fi* samplers can be classified
>    > as musical instruments! Better throw away your Fairlight, Norm;
>    > you've just wasted your money.
>
> I said "musical process", not "rubbish" or "lo-fi".  I absolutely do
> not see how you get from one to the other.

Then you'll have to explain yourself a bit better; you say that a high
end digital sampler is not a musical instrument, whereas a Mellotron -
an analogue sampler - is. Having no inherent 'musical qualities' and
having myself no idea what you mean by 'musical process' you'll have to
help me out here. Why is a Fairlight not an instrument whereas a
Mellotron is?

Here's a thought; are drums a musical instrument?

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

> Okay, let's try an experiment... bring a musician into a room with a
> digital sampler and a VCS3.  Have him stand in front of each and
> measure his heartbeat.  That would be the Touring Test for musical
> instruments.  (I'm kidding.  Well, maybe not.)

If you stick me in the same room in front of a set of bagpipes and a
Casio SK1 sampler, I'd go for the sampler. I hate bagpipes.

> Y'know, I'd sure like to say that a digital sampler doesn't belong on
> the Musical Instrument list, but therein lies the issue.  Why bother
> with the low end so much?  Why be so concerned about what legitimizing
> questionable stuff when you could be making better musical
> instruments?

Did you really just say 'legitimizing questionable stuff' on a mailing
list dedicated to Mellotrons?

> I'm interested in the high end.  Where is the research
> to make instruments that are truly cherished by the musician?  Where
> is the develoment of something that will enable and inspire the next
> Hendrix or Coltrane?

Probably waiting for the next Hendrix or Coltrane to pick them up.

> There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital sampler, and it's
> really difficult to name a truly great solo played on a digital
> machine.

So why dopes that have anything to do with the instrument? Not all
instruments are built for soloing (mercifully). Are you trying to
contend that if you cannot weedly-weedly away on play an instrument
whilst waggling your tongue at the audience then it mustn't be *an
instrument* that you're playing? This really is the most wacked-out and
bizarre argument I've heard in years!

> Compare that to the way we on this list gush over the intro
> to "Watcher of the Skies".

Er...*some* of us do. I think it sounds out of tune.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

> From: tron@...
   > Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 05:58:53 GMT
   > 
   > > There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital sampler, and it's
   > > really difficult to name a truly great solo played on a digital
   > > machine.
   > 
   > So why dopes that have anything to do with the instrument? Not all
   > instruments are built for soloing (mercifully).  Are you trying to
   > contend that if you cannot weedly-weedly away on play an instrument
   > whilst waggling your tongue at the audience then it mustn't be *an
   > instrument* that you're playing? This really is the most wacked-out and
   > bizarre argument I've heard in years!

I didn't say "weedly-weedly", I said "solo".  A melody, an improv, a
chord change, perhaps even a funny noise, a dramatic musical moment
directed toward a single instrument.  Surely you've heard of such
things.  They can be really nice.

   > > I said "musical process", not "rubbish" or "lo-fi".  I
   > > absolutely do not see how you get from one to the other.
   > 
   > Then you'll have to explain yourself a bit better; 

I don't think I can.  You've pretty much misinterpretted every word
I've written and you're living in a parallel universe where breakfast
cereals get confused with musical instruments.  I thought I explained
my position really well the first time.  If you really care, prehaps
you might want to reread my previous posts.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:

D> You've pretty much misinterpretted every word I've written and 
you're living in a parallel universe... 

C> Don, you entered the parallel universe first when you typed that 
paragraph about the marxist academic philosophy.

D> I thought I explained my position really well the first time.
 
C> No you didn't explain yourself well.
D> Yes I DID !
C> YOU didn't !
D> I DID !!!
C> Didn't !
D> DID !!!
(pause)

C> It was fucking nonsense !
D> No it wasn't !!!
C> Yes it WAS !!!!!!!
(pause)
D> Perhaps you might want to reread my previous posts.
C> I DID reread them.
D> No you haven't !
C> Yes I have.
D> When ?
C> Just now.

D> No you didn't !
C> (unable to type he's so pissed) Yes I did !!!!
D> You didn't !
C> I'm telling you, I did !
It made less sense than the first time thru !!

D> No it didn't! Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or 
the full half hour?

> I don't think I can.  You've pretty much misinterpretted every word
> I've written and you're living in a parallel universe where breakfast
> cereals get confused with musical instruments.  I thought I explained
> my position really well the first time.  If you really care, prehaps
> you might want to reread my previous posts.

I've taken you at your literal word in all things. As for confusing
breakfast cereals with musical instrumwents, it's only confususion if
you don't understand it. If I play 'The Bells of St Marys' on my cutlery
then my cutlery *is* a musical instrument for the duration of that time.
Why can't you follow this?

I ask you again; are drums instruments?

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

Don't use cutlery Mike.  For The Bells of St. Mary's I suggest:
1) Get yourself twenty-three Norwegian white mice. 
2) Train the mice to squeak at a selected pitch. 
3) Arrange the mice on a rack in the correct order.
4) Use two mallets and strike the mice on the head.
5) Strike the mice in the proper sequence and they will squeak 'The 
Bells of St Mary's'. 

Playing the Mouse Organ requires some special mallet technique.
A squashing sound may indicate that you are striking the heads with 
too much velocity.  If no sound is produced on subsequent strikes, the 
mouse may have expired.  Adjust the head azimuth and try again.  You 
may have stunned the mouse by hitting him on the head repeatedly.  
Norwegian white mice "stun" easily.  (Or he might be tired and shagged 
out following a prolonged squeak).

That mouse has not "expired," he's just pinin' for the fjords...

> Don't use cutlery Mike.  For The Bells of St. Mary's I suggest:
> 1) Get yourself twenty-three Norwegian white mice. 
> 2) Train the mice to squeak at a selected pitch. 
> 3) Arrange the mice on a rack in the correct order.
> 4) Use two mallets and strike the mice on the head.
> 5) Strike the mice in the proper sequence and they will squeak 'The 
> Bells of St Mary's'. 
> 
> Playing the Mouse Organ requires some special mallet technique.
> A squashing sound may indicate that you are striking the heads with 
> too much velocity.  If no sound is produced on subsequent strikes, the 
> mouse may have expired.  Adjust the head azimuth and try again.  You 
> may have stunned the mouse by hitting him on the head repeatedly.  
> Norwegian white mice "stun" easily.  (Or he might be tired and shagged 
> out following a prolonged squeak).
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

In a message dated 9/27/2006 5:47:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
ecclesreinson@... writes:

Norwegian white mice "stun" easily. 


That's why I replaced all of mine with the far more hard-headed Canadian  
white mice. Correctly struck, their heads make a marvelous "ping" and will  
function as tiny little drums far after the squeaking has ceased.
 
I hope this helps.
 
Frank

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, lsf5275@... wrote:
>
>  
> In a message dated 9/27/2006 5:47:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> ecclesreinson@... writes:
> 
> Norwegian white mice "stun" easily. 
> 
> 
> That's why I replaced all of mine with the far more hard-headed 
Canadian  
> white mice. Correctly struck, their heads make a marvelous "ping" 
and will  
> function as tiny little drums far after the squeaking has ceased.
>  
> I hope this helps.
>  
> Frank
>



On the other side you could just sample the mice, send it to 
Streetly to transfer on tape, and be able to mix both mice via head 
selector  and save all that cleaning below the head cluster.

In a message dated 9/27/2006 9:21:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
caddyfam@... writes:

On the  other side you could just sample the mice, send it to 
Streetly to transfer  on tape, and be able to mix both mice via head 
selector and save all that  cleaning below the head cluster.



Great idea!!!
 
I'm thinking of a blended sound... perhaps mice and  vibes.

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, lsf5275@... wrote:
>
>  
> In a message dated 9/27/2006 9:21:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> caddyfam@... writes:
> 
> On the  other side you could just sample the mice, send it to 
> Streetly to transfer  on tape, and be able to mix both mice via head 
> selector and save all that  cleaning below the head cluster.
> 
> 
> 
> Great idea!!!
>  
> I'm thinking of a blended sound... perhaps mice and  vibes.
>


[]  Wonder how it would sound at half speed?

-----Original Message-----
>From: Doug Berg <caddyfam@...>
>Sent: Sep 28, 2006 9:21 AM
>To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: 'Tron improvements, Musical Instruments, rant
>
>--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, lsf5275@... wrote:
>>
>>  
>> In a message dated 9/27/2006 9:21:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>> caddyfam@... writes:
>> 
>> On the  other side you could just sample the mice, send it to 
>> Streetly to transfer  on tape, and be able to mix both mice via head 
>> selector and save all that  cleaning below the head cluster.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Great idea!!!
>>  
>> I'm thinking of a blended sound... perhaps mice and  vibes.
>>
>
>
>[]  Wonder how it would sound at half speed?

_____________________________________________________________________________



Easy Answer..... Like dying rats.......Bert/Ernie

" There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital sampler, and it's
really difficult to name a truly great solo played on a digital
machine."

Hi all...
I recently sold my Chamberlin and went digital for a variety of reasons and
have been happy with the results...
I hope to record a *lot* of solos that you wouldn't be able to distinguish
from a real Chamberlin...   ;-)

I bought an Alesis Fusion and the Pinder CD, and haven't missed a step.  In
fact, I have a much more versatile tool with 2-3 times the number of
Chamberlin samples, not to mention all the 'Tron samples.

Oh, and all the samples that came with the Fusion.
It's a great tool for me...

I put together a little demo for folks who wanted to hear what the
Fusion/Chamberlin samples sounded like.  Check it out here, clicking on
"Fusion Chamberlin Demo":

http://www.myspace.com/bruceharvie

Oh, and does anyone have any info as to when the new Chamberlin/'Tron sample
CD is due from the folks at Mellotron.com?

They said that they "are trying for an early summer release" at their
website, and they might be right.  It's awfully warm here for late
September.  ;-)

Bruce
--

I think there is something much bigger in the works at
MA right now. Not sure if they are still going to
produce that second CD, but I could be wrong about
that....I guess we'll see. All of these Mellotron
people are so full of secrets all the time!!

I'm pretty sure that it'll be a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
though. ;-]

Mark.

--- Bruce Harvie <tonewoods@...> wrote:

> " There is no Hendrix or Coltrane of the digital
> sampler, and it's
> really difficult to name a truly great solo played
> on a digital
> machine."
> 
> Hi all...
> I recently sold my Chamberlin and went digital for a
> variety of reasons and
> have been happy with the results...
> I hope to record a *lot* of solos that you wouldn't
> be able to distinguish
> from a real Chamberlin...   ;-)
> 
> I bought an Alesis Fusion and the Pinder CD, and
> haven't missed a step.  In
> fact, I have a much more versatile tool with 2-3
> times the number of
> Chamberlin samples, not to mention all the 'Tron
> samples.
> 
> Oh, and all the samples that came with the Fusion.
> It's a great tool for me...
> 
> I put together a little demo for folks who wanted to
> hear what the
> Fusion/Chamberlin samples sounded like.  Check it
> out here, clicking on
> "Fusion Chamberlin Demo":
> 
> http://www.myspace.com/bruceharvie
> 
> Oh, and does anyone have any info as to when the new
> Chamberlin/'Tron sample
> CD is due from the folks at Mellotron.com?
> 
> They said that they "are trying for an early summer
> release" at their
> website, and they might be right.  It's awfully warm
> here for late
> September.  ;-)
> 
> Bruce
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Don Tillman <don@...> wrote:
>
 
> I just think it's very strange to suddenly start calling conflakes a
> musical instrument just because they were used in a composition.  Do
> you disagree?

Chiming in a bit late on this, but I've been playing catch-up.

Anyway, yes Don, the cornflakes are not a musical instrument in-and-of 
themselves; they are what would be termed, in the electro-acoustic 
realm a "sound source". If their sonic characteristics are altered by 
some method, then that method could be considered the "instrument".

A Mellotron could, and indeed does in some cases, contain many of 
such "sound sources". The mechanism by which they are reproduced would 
be the instrument.

These may seem to be somewhat contradictory, but in the first case the 
sound could be passed through anything from a simple filter to a 
complex computer algorithm, which would then be the instrument. In the 
latter case it's the act of playing. Another way of saying this is that 
the strings of a piano aren't musical instruments, but the mechanism is.

I don't know if this makes things easier for anyone, but it's the way I 
understand it.

As someone who often plays found objects, the term "instrument" can be 
rather vague. I prefer to say that something which I've modified (by, 
say, the addition of guitar strings or whatever) is an "instrument", 
and things played as-is (such as an old heat-sink - or even a kitchen 
sink, both of which I *have* played) I call "implements".

While I am fascinated by the 'tron, I don't own one because it doesn't 
really work for the way I play.

Jim Bailey

" I'm pretty sure that it'll be a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
though. ;-]"

Hey, I just got a line on a *real* 'Tron, so I'll be back in the fold
soon....  ;-)

Bruce
--

Hi Troniacs!
Oh boy, how interesting to read all those different opinions about 
the MELLOTRON, the M-Tron and the brand new MEMOTRON. By the way, 
there is no Casio in the MEMOTRON!!! 
Dare I say that I had 40 Mellotrons (I still own two)and more than a 
hundred tape frames in over thirty years of my musicianship? Being a 
real Troniac I helped many desperate Mellotronists to repair, adjust 
and improve their "mellotronic babies" in the last decades.
Am I allowed to say that half of the M-TRON library, Masterbits' 
MELLOZONE, SAMPLETANK's mellotronic noises and the complete MEMOTRON 
sounds stem from my Trons and tape frames? 
In a way I can understand that the owner of a real Tron nowadays 
dislikes or even hates digital MELLOTRON samples, the MEMOTRON and 
the M-Tron as the MELLOTRON always gave its owner a sort 
of 'noblesse'.
I am happy that these often so mistreated instruments are back on 
stage and that their marvellous sounds can be heard (in old and new 
songs) on the radio again. But let's be honest: there are actually at 
an absolute maximum only 1900 M 400s (including the new MkVI) and 
maybe some hundred other Tron models on this planet. What about all 
those ten thousands or more musicians who want(ed) those mellotronic 
noises for their compositions and performances? Keep them away from 
the sounds that often became part of their musical life and 
inspiration? Absolutely: NO!  
In his last interview the father of the original MELLOTRON, Les 
Bradley, told me that he really would have preferred to use more 
advanced ways of sound storage "but in those early days (1962/63) 
when a computer was as big as a house and a single chip cost a 
fortune, tapes were the cheapest way of storing". And believe me, he 
knew exactly all mistakes and odd tunings (that can make a Tronist's 
life at times hard!) in his sound library. Due to a constant lack of 
money and time he was only able to correct the most obvious mistakes. 
His vision was to create a (perfect) machine that could replicate an 
orchestra and its instruments, tapes were only one step on the ladder 
for him! 
Now in 2006 technology has improved considerably, enabling sounds and 
possibilities no one would have dreamed of forty years ago. So why 
not use it? Do you hate DVDs because they lack your video tapes' drop-
outs? As times are constantly changing musicians do no longer need to 
carry 65 or 180 kilos to produce only three sounds on stage. I saw 
the MOODY BLUES on stage in 1970 cancel the whole show because the 
MkII Tron did not do its job!

The main idea behind G-Media's M-Tron was to give all those younger 
(and older) guys who could (or would) never afford to buy the real 
thing the chance to add mellotronic flavours to their computer-
created music and believe me, they did it and created a lot of 
interesting music! 
The MEMOTRON makers have a different approach. They know that the 
original M 400 is heavy to transport (and for most of its users hard 
to adjust and repair). So they created an instrument which gives the 
player a bit of the M 400's flair without its bulkiness, but with a 
programmable (stereo) effects unit, MIDI in/out, a CD-Rom drive for 
the library CDs, a Compact Flash card for your personal sound 
combinations, for 'dramatic sound effects' a "one-octave-down" 
switch, a volume pedal input (for the authentic MELLOTRON feel) and 
the capability to use M-Tron sounds besides the MEMOTRON'S own 
library (= different from the M-Tron!) which presently is the best 
you can find on the market!

Some guys who only played the prototype at last year's Frankfurt 
Music Fair or at the NAMM Show did not have the chance to listen to 
the final version of the actual sounds that will come with the 
machine. Unlike the M-Tron the MEMOTRON uses a sample rate of 32 kHz 
which is more than enough to cover the MELLOTRON's up to 10 kHz (+- 
3dB) frequency width. 
The MEMOTRON library uses completely different samples than in any 
other library before published. It is divided into two parts: 
   The 'VINTAGE' collection faithfully reproduces the original 
MELLOTRON sounds of Genesis, Yes, King Crimson with all the typical 
oddities, a pinch of tape noise and pitch inaccuracy added plus the 
tiny differences between each key in volume (including the wow, 
flutter and occasional attack clicks) of let's say a 1964 MkII, a 
1968 M 300 or a 1970 M 400. You will be amazed how realistic the 
MEMOTRON can sound when it comes to reproduce a superb sounding 
vintage MELLOTRON.
  The 'STUDIO' collection has the producer in mind who wants to add 
those famous warm MELLOTRON sounds to his productions but who is not 
interested in hard tape endings or background hum noises (think of 
the 60Hz hum in the famous 'Violins'). The 'STUDIO' collection 
presents an ideal MELLOTRON with proper sound endings and a 
considerably reduced background noise level where the mighty choirs 
and all the other orchestral instruments create such an enormous 
sound impact that simply blows your mind in its clear power and 
perfect intonation - but with a character (so often missed in present-
day samples) you won't believe until you have heard it yourself. For 
sure Les Bradley would have liked it.       
Last but not least - the MEMOTRON enables the musician to blend all 
sounds of its (still expanding) library with each other for an 
unequalled variety. A creative tool for the working musician and the 
lover of those (unlooped - of course) 8 seconds long noises that make 
our hearts warmer.  
Have fun with the instrument of your choice (be it vintage or modern) 
but use those marvellous sounds for your music and keep your mind 
open.   
Yours mellotronically

Klaus Hoffmann-Hoock (MIND OVER MATTER / COSMIC HOFFMANN) 
www.mindala.de

> From: "Klaus Hoffmann-Hoock" <klaus@...>
   > Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:44:40 -0000
   > 
   > In a way I can understand that the owner of a real Tron nowadays
   > dislikes or even hates digital MELLOTRON samples, the MEMOTRON
   > and the M-Tron as the MELLOTRON always gave its owner a sort of
   > 'noblesse'.

Ahh, class struggle... yes, this is exactly what I meant by Marxism
applied to musical instruments.

If you make a weird copy of a respected and cherished musical
instrument, appropriating the name, the look and even recording the
sounds of the instrument, and you don't get instant recognition and
reward, sure, you can always blame it on elitism.

   > Now in 2006 technology has improved considerably, enabling sounds
   > and possibilities no one would have dreamed of forty years ago.
   > So why not use it?

Yes, I agree completely; technology enables sounds and possiblities no
one would have dreamed of forty years ago.

So what do you do with that amazing technology?  I know, I know... use
it to play back a recording of an instrument that's forty years old.

And what were the musical instrument makers doing with their older
technology forty years ago?  That's right, enabling new sounds and
possiblities.  

Is anybody not catching the irony here?

If modern day musical instrument makers had any balls they really
would enable new sounds and possibilities.  

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

> If modern day musical instrument makers had any balls they really
> would enable new sounds and possibilities.

In my experience, that is exactly what they are doing.  If anything, 
there are sometimes too many high quality sound choices to deal with.  

The Yamaha VL-70 Tone Generator for example has about 250 unique 
voices.  Half of them replicate real acoustic and electronic 
instruments nicely.  All of the voices can be customized to your 
hearts content.

The area that needs improvement with Yamaha (and others) is the user 
interface.  (still sucks after all these years since the DX-7).

Clay

The Casio VL-1 Tone Generator for example has about 6 unique
voices. None of them replicate real acoustic and electronic
instruments nicely.

// Mattias

> From: "ceccles_ca" <ecclesreinson@...>
   > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:59:13 -0000
   > 
   > The Yamaha VL-70 Tone Generator for example has about 250 unique
   > voices.  Half of them replicate real acoustic and electronic
   > instruments nicely.  All of the voices can be customized to your
   > hearts content.

I agree that physical modeling is a recent development that has
substantial musical potential.  

(And hey, my band's album was very likely the first to feature a
Yamaha VL-1.)

   > The area that needs improvement with Yamaha (and others) is the user 
   > interface.  (still sucks after all these years since the DX-7).

Indeed.  And that's a big part of buiilding a musical instrument.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

In a message dated 03/10/2006 22:30:55 GMT Daylight Time, don@...  
writes:

If  modern day musical instrument makers had any balls they really
would enable  new sounds and possibilities.


In most cases they are dumbed down, it always intrigues me that many of the  
'classic' instruments are often the first attempt. These are the  instruments 
that are still dangerous with rough edges and capabilities that  are beyond 
'safe'.
 
For example I still use a Roland D50, but later D synths were chopped right  
down because the D50 was seen as too complicated. Shame...
 
Norm

Don Tillman wrote:

>    > The area that needs improvement with Yamaha (and others) is the user 
>    > interface.  (still sucks after all these years since the DX-7).
>
> Indeed.  And that's a big part of buiilding a musical instrument.

Agreed. I always had problems with the user interface on 'guitar'. And 
'piano'.

Bob S.