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Obscure bits

Obscure bits

2002-06-05 by Paul Marshall

Back again,
Just been listening to Moodies 'On The Threshold...'.
Anyone know what that gorgeous sound is which opens AND closes the album (sort of a deep rumble with glistening bits over the top)? It's tracked right into the run-off groove at the end of side 2, so repeats forever if you have it on vinyl! Is it Mr Pinder's doing - if so, Mell. or what?
Also, in general did the sound FX on Moodies albums (e.g. creaking doors on 'House Of Four Doors', the squeaks on 'Best Way To Travel' originate on 3/8" tapes? Any ideas?
Paul Marshall - M400 #1380

Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by Don Tillman

> From: "Paul Marshall" <paulm@...>
   > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:34:00 +0100
   > 
   > Just been listening to Moodies 'On The Threshold...'.
   > 
   > Anyone know what that gorgeous sound is which opens AND closes
   > the album (s ort of a deep rumble with glistening bits over the
   > top)?

I don't know the real answer, but I'll take a wild-ass guess...

I think it's a tape recording of a single sustained note slowed down
so much that the ultrasonic bias oscillator frequency is audible as
the high pitch.  The quivering effect on the high pitch would be the
wow and flutter of the tape.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com

Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by ferrograph@aol.com

<< I think it's a tape recording of a single sustained note slowed down
so much that the ultrasonic bias oscillator frequency is audible as
the high pitch.  The quivering effect on the high pitch would be the
wow and flutter of the tape. >>

that seems reasonable- bias frequencies were generally lower in those days, 
even on professional machines. has anybody seen a really good explanation of 
how bias works? I'll have to dig this out and have another listen, but 
there's a similar effect on "are you experienced?".

d./400nr1098 (not biased at all) and a small army of 1/4" machines.

Re: Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by ceccles_ca

--- In Mellotronists@y..., "Paul Marshall" <paulm@s...> wrote:
Moodies 'On The Threshold...'.
Anyone know what that gorgeous sound is which opens AND closes the 
album...

The final tone continues and would play indefinitely on a manual 
turntable. That effect was completely lost on the compact disc.

I recall reading a Pinder / Tony Clarke interview and they discussed 
the recording of "that sound".  SHIT... I can't remember what they 
said.... Tape! That's it...tape.  They used magnetic tape!  And they 
slowed it down... wayyy down... So Don's right.  But the original 
sound source???  I don't know.

"...Of course you are my bright little star, I've miles And miles Of 
files Pretty files of your forefather's fruit and now to suit our 
great computer, You're magnetic ink...."

Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by Don Tillman

> From: ferrograph@...
   > Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:40:48 EDT
   > 
   > that seems reasonable- bias frequencies were generally lower in
   > those days, even on professional machines. 

I don't know that the bias frequency has changed all that much over
the years.

   > has anybody seen a really good explanation of how bias works?

"Bias" in electronics typically refers to adding a dc voltage or
current to move the operating point of an amplifier stage to where it
behaves best.  For instance, a single tube or transitor stage won't
clip in a symmetrical way, so the bias is adjusted to center things.
(That's a very simplified description.)

Tape bias is similiar.  In tape, we have nonlinearities.  Sure, if you
crank the record levels the tape will saturate, we know about that.
But there's also a little glitch in the magnetic curve near the
zero-point, a kind of "dead zone" which is unfortunately where an
audio signal typically spends most of it's time.

Tape bias is an ultrasonic sine wave that's summed with with the
regular audio record signal.  It keeps the audio signal from spending
much time in the dead zone, and the time it does spend in the dead
zone is averaged out and thus much smoother.  Tape bias effectively
removes this annoying form of distortion.

So every tape deck has an unltrasonic audio oscillator built in, and
it's level is adjusted for the size of the dead zone of the given tape
formulation.  And if you play back a tape much slower than you
recorded it you can hear the bias oscillator, and it sounds exactly
like that Moodies noise.  

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by Don Tillman

> From: "ceccles_ca" <clay123@...>
   > Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:08:53 -0000
   >
   > Tape! That's it...tape.  They used magnetic tape!  And they
   > slowed it down... wayyy down... So Don's right.  But the original
   > sound source???  I don't know.

Can someone play it back at about 8 times the speed and tell us what
it sounds like?  (I'm not set up for that sort of thing right now.)

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com

Re: Obscure bits

2002-06-06 by ceccles_ca

> Can someone play it back at about 8 times the speed and tell us what
> it sounds like?  (I'm not set up for that sort of thing right now.)
> 

Played back at 8 times the speed, there are some orchestral Harp 
glisses way off in the background and there is a hummm like those 
electric hair clippers, (you know...when the barber gets too close to 
your ear)and there might be a Cello playing in unison with the 
clippers.

I know, I know.... Get a life.

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: Obscure bits

2002-06-07 by doctorwho8@aol.com

In a message dated 6/6/02 3:40:58 PM, clay123@... writes:

>Played back at 8 times the speed, there are some orchestral Harp 
>glisses way off in the background and there is a hummm like those 
>electric hair clippers, (you know...when the barber gets too close to 
>your ear) and there might be a Cello playing in unison with the 
>clippers.

I pitch shifted the beginning clip up an octave and it does sound like cello. 
 Here's an MP3.  Please excuse the attached file if you're not interested.
                                                Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-07 by Chris Dale

The opening sound is the cycling mechanism and motor of the Mk II. When the Mark II is running and the innards are exposed you can hear this sound. Rick Blechta's MK II made this sound as it was being fixed during Tronto 2000.
The squeak in the middle of Best Way to Travel is a single flute note being repeatedly pressed. Not sure about the door squeak, but probably Mk II sound effects.
Chris Dale
--- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 6:34 PM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

Back again,
Just been listening to Moodies 'On The Threshold...'.
Anyone know what that gorgeous sound is which opens AND closes the album (sort of a deep rumble with glistening bits over the top)? It's tracked right into the run-off groove at the end of side 2, so repeats forever if you have it on vinyl! Is it Mr Pinder's doing - if so, Mell. or what?
Also, in general did the sound FX on Moodies albums (e.g. creaking doors on 'House Of Four Doors', the squeaks on 'Best Way To Travel' originate on 3/8" tapes? Any ideas?
Paul Marshall - M400 #1380

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Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-07 by Alan Neva

Maybe this will help...
What is bias? What is overbias?

With just the audio signal applied to a tape, the frequency response
is very poor. High frequency response is much better than low
frequency, and the low frequency distortion is very high. In 1906,
the Poulson Telegraphone managed to record an intelligible voice on a
magnetic medium, but it was not until the 1930s when this problem was
solved by German engineers.

To compensate for the tape characteristic, a very high frequency
signal is applied to the tape in addition to the audio. This is
typically in the 100 KHz range, far above the audio range. With the
bias adjusted properly, the frequency response should be flat across
the audible range. With too low bias, bass distortion will be the
first audible sign, but with too much bias, the high frequency
response will drop off.

Incidentally, digital recording equipment takes advantage of the very
nonlinearity that is a problem with analogue methods. It records a
square wave on the tape, driving the tape into saturation at all
times, and extracts the signal from the waveform edges. As a result,
no bias is required. ; (For a good example of the various digital
recording methods, check out NASA SP 5038, _Magnetic Tape Recording_.)
[Scott]

[Ed. note: For those looking for an understanding of why we need
bias in the first place, here is one way to think about it. Tape
consists of lots of small magnetic particles called domains. These
domains are exposed to a magnetic field from the record head and
oscillate in polarity as the AC signal voltage changes. Domains,
being physical objects, have inertia. Every time the analog signal
crosses from positive to negative and back again, the voltage passes
the zero point for an instant. At this moment, the domain is at rest,
and like any other physical object, there is a short period of inertia
before it gets moving again. The result is the bizarre high-frequency
performance characteristic that Scott described. The high frequency of
a bias signal simply ensures that the domains are always kept in motion,
negating the effect of inertia at audio frequencies. -Gabe]
Alan M400s #343
-------Original Message-------
Date: Thursday, June 06, 2002 03:41:35
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Obscure bits
<< I think it's a tape recording of a single sustained note slowed down
so much that the ultrasonic bias oscillator frequency is audible as
the high pitch. The quivering effect on the high pitch would be the
wow and flutter of the tape. >>

that seems reasonable- bias frequencies were generally lower in those days,
even on professional machines. has anybody seen a really good explanation of
how bias works? I'll have to dig this out and have another listen, but
there's a similar effect on "are you experienced?".

d./400nr1098 (not biased at all) and a small army of 1/4" machines.


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[Mellotronists] Obscure bits

2002-06-07 by tron@blackcat.demon.co.uk

> Rick Blechta's MK II made this sound as it was being fixed during
> Tronto 2000.

Rick Blechta's MK II made another odd sound as it was being wrecked by
someone during Tronto 2000. As did Rick.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

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