Mellotronists

JS wrote:

   The main source of my puzzlement has been the attack on the
upper-register notes - it has a lot of the same feel as the way
   the initial attack on the tapes comes in, and I even hear a couple of
places that sound like blurred notes, not lifting off one
   finger before pressing the next key.  Could this have been
overdubbed, perhaps?  (Either keyboard or flute overdubbing
   could explain either of those, and believe me, I've listened to this
thing at least a hundred times just this week.)
   Jon E Salley

John, the reason the solo sounds that way does is that Ray What'sisname
is doing about everything wrong that he could and
still get a bit of sound out. His embouchure is way too wide and the
airstream unfocused (hence the breathy tone), he isn't
tonguing correctly nor supporting sufficiently (what you're hearing on
the upper register notes) and he's using at least two
incorrect fingerings as far as I can tell which is another reason the
intonation is spotty. He also held the flute wrong, played
hunched over and took the air into the upper part of his lungs.

Other than that, it's a truly breathtaking performance.

Rick

PS Flute is probably the worst-played instrument in rock and roll-dom.
Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
licensed...

I'm sorry, I've said too much already, please, for god's sake, just forget
you heard anything about them, if I told you any more I'd be immediately
silenc

Jon E Salley
MiloJohnson@...
M400 #886



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Snyder" <bob.snyder@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment


> JS wrote:
>
> > Also, I have been working on recreating "Nights in White Satin" for MY
> > rehearsal tomorrow night, and have been listening to the original with
the
> > ear microscopes the last few weeks.  The more I listen, the more I think
the
> > flute solo which I had always assumed was Ray's work, is instead Mr.
Pinder.

> > Any takers?
>
> I'll bite. What *are* ear microscopes? And were you using them
> when you listened to Daniel?
>
> Bob S.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>

<< Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
licensed... >>

picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their 
damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing 
across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up wrong, 
with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would the 
world really be a better place without tull?
I still mourn the passing of the monsoon bassoon, one of london's brightest 
new-prog hopefuls of the last decade. they managed (or sarah did) to exhibit 
flute, sax and sarah's own rather delicate singing through some of the most 
indifferently constructed and operated p.a. systems I've ever.... (&c &c). I 
know that the rock-flautist's duff choice of musical setting is hardly a 
defence, but it's pretty brave all the same. even a triangle player (an 
equilateralist?) can hit his thing harder if he needs to.
and there are some dodgy flautists outside rock too- that james galway, for a 
start. for god's sake, stop fidgeting man! just because you're irish doesn't 
mean you can arse about and be mischievous *all* the time. (oh- it does? 
where do I sign?)
my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things 
flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those 
rules.

personally, I quite like a bit of expression to creep in by way of breathing 
noises, breathing where you think you should and not where the teacher says 
the composer meant you to, clanking of teeth or microphone, waving the thing 
in the air and brandishing it like a magic wand or cheerleader's baton. 
without all that, you'd have little more than a wobbly sine wave- may as well 
get an ondes martenot.

of course, what sets *our* flute apart, and even "cloth-ears" salley has 
noticed this :-), is that it's possible to play for hours without breathing 
and occasionally more than one note at a time. in fact, it's quite hard not 
to. I reckon that pinder may have had a crack at the solo and then 
ray-what's-his-face, "the gay waiter" (per the prog rock top 10 tv show I 
mentioned passim), repeated the line on real plumbing. it's always surprised 
me how little 'tron there is in "nights" when you listen really hard. I mean, 
obviously it's there, but the flute isn't 'tron, and quite a lot of the rest 
of the arrangement is "real", not memorex (or e.m.i.). 
it must've been quite a kick up the arse for the moodies when "court" came 
out. discuss.

duncan/400nr1098- sort of hoping there'll be an ian anderson flute set one 
day, and a pablo casals cello while we're about it. or jack bruce. jack bruce 
cello. and andy mackay saxophone. ah yes.

ferrograph@... wrote:

> << Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
> should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
> licensed... >>
>
> picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
> damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
> across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up wrong,
> with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would the
> world really be a better place without tull?

Well, I don't think I'm being too picky. Between my wife and myself, we've
taught well over 700 people how to play flute (she currently has 43 students),
so I think we have a pretty good idea of what a flute can and cannot do. True,
it is a delicate instrument in the face of a wall of Marshalls, but one can
always use a headjoint cork pick-up and run the flute through one's own Marshall
stack if you want to compete.

The problem with flute is that you actually need a fair bit of study to make a
nice sound, and most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of
a whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're doing,
so off they go.

Also, I don't know what kind of teachers you had, but all of mine taught me that
I should breathe where the music dictates and that's always fairly clear if you
pay attention to it. Luckily, I never had a teacher who was pedantic about where
to breathe without explaining why. If I didn't agree, then I didn't do it and I
explained why.

There is never a reason to play an instrument badly unless you're happy sounding
bad in which case you have to take your lumps if you do it in public. I know
what a good flutist can sound like in a rock band because I worked with one of
the best. He could do all the Ian Anderson humming crap, knew where to breath,
had an excellent sound, and by God, he played in tune. Why? Because he took the
time to learn how to play flute correctly.

As for Galway, I can't stand the man (a total boor. I've met him) and he really
doesn't try very hard to make music anymore, but you could NEVER call him a bad
flutist if you know anything. You don't get a job in one of the top orchestras
in the world (Berlin Phil) if you can't play. The man CAN flat out play the
instrument--when he wants to. Now as for being a musician, he stopped doing that
when he became a "personality". Sad, but it happens.

Rick

--- In Mellotronists@y..., Rick Blechta <rick@r...> wrote:
"...most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of a 
whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're 
doing..."

The point is... A lot of our favorite tunes with flute wouldn't have 
been better songs if played by a great flautist.  Songs like "Timothy 
Leary", "The Actor","Are You Sitting Comfortably","Thick as a 
Brick","Firth of Fifth".... None of this material would have 
benefited if a "great session Flautist" had been brought in.  (IMHO).

Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session 
keyboard wizard was brought in?

Clay

my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things 
flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those 
rules.

Ah yes, but the trained flutists break the rules better than the untrained.

fd

Well, Clay, you've got two problems here. One is that Ray Thomas is a
bad
flutist. Ian Anderson was not bad. Gabriel, well...he put on a hell of a

show. Would these songs have benefited from a better flutist? Have you
heard
the Genesis Revisited or Hackett's Tokyo Tapes stuff? Ian McD makes a
HUGE
difference to the Genesis songs.

In 'ITWOP', 'Epitaph' and the 'Rain Song', the keyboard parts are not
difficult and are played VERY well. Just because you're a great session
player doesn't mean you have to race all over the damn instrument. As a
matter of fact, the players most in demand are the ones who keep it
simple
(Benmont Tench, anyone?). On the other hand, the flute pieces you
mentioned
are simple (with the exception of 'Thick as a Brick') and are played
poorly.

Don't confuse good playing with difficult playing. Many of the best
pieces
are simple to play, but nonetheless deserve to be played well.

Rick

PS Did I mention that Ray Thomas is a bad flutist?

ceccles_ca wrote:

> --- In Mellotronists@y..., Rick Blechta <rick@r...> wrote:
> "...most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of a
> whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're
> doing..."
>
> The point is... A lot of our favorite tunes with flute wouldn't have
> been better songs if played by a great flautist.  Songs like "Timothy
> Leary", "The Actor","Are You Sitting Comfortably","Thick as a
> Brick","Firth of Fifth".... None of this material would have
> benefited if a "great session Flautist" had been brought in.  (IMHO).
>
> Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session
> keyboard wizard was brought in?
>
> Clay

-----Original Message-----

From: ceccles_ca [mailto:clay123@...]
Sent: 15 May 2002 17:01
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment




Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session 
keyboard wizard was brought in?


JPJ's a classically-trained organist...

Andy T, pedantically.  :-)
M400 #1145

http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.thompson/

"March 26 -1969
Justin Hayward, Graham Edge and Tony Clark are impressed.  Prospective UK
tour by the Moodies with King Crimson in support.
The Moodies dropped the idea shortly afterwords.  David Enthoven found the
reason from Graham after altering his state of consciousness one evening:
King Crimson were simply too strong."
RF.
  Thus quoth Master Fripp in the insert bit to The Young Persons' Guide to
King Crimson.
 Discuss further, but it does sorta say a lot.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ferrograph@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment


> << Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
> should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
> licensed... >>
>
> picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
> damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
> across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up
wrong,
> with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would
the
> world really be a better place without tull?
> I still mourn the passing of the monsoon bassoon, one of london's
brightest
> new-prog hopefuls of the last decade. they managed (or sarah did) to
exhibit
> flute, sax and sarah's own rather delicate singing through some of the
most
> indifferently constructed and operated p.a. systems I've ever.... (&c &c).
I
> know that the rock-flautist's duff choice of musical setting is hardly a
> defence, but it's pretty brave all the same. even a triangle player (an
> equilateralist?) can hit his thing harder if he needs to.
> and there are some dodgy flautists outside rock too- that james galway,
for a
> start. for god's sake, stop fidgeting man! just because you're irish
doesn't
> mean you can arse about and be mischievous *all* the time. (oh- it does?
> where do I sign?)
> my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things
> flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those
> rules.
>
> personally, I quite like a bit of expression to creep in by way of
breathing
> noises, breathing where you think you should and not where the teacher
says
> the composer meant you to, clanking of teeth or microphone, waving the
thing
> in the air and brandishing it like a magic wand or cheerleader's baton.
> without all that, you'd have little more than a wobbly sine wave- may as
well
> get an ondes martenot.
>
> of course, what sets *our* flute apart, and even "cloth-ears" salley has
> noticed this :-), is that it's possible to play for hours without
breathing
> and occasionally more than one note at a time. in fact, it's quite hard
not
> to. I reckon that pinder may have had a crack at the solo and then
> ray-what's-his-face, "the gay waiter" (per the prog rock top 10 tv show I
> mentioned passim), repeated the line on real plumbing. it's always
surprised
> me how little 'tron there is in "nights" when you listen really hard. I
mean,
> obviously it's there, but the flute isn't 'tron, and quite a lot of the
rest
> of the arrangement is "real", not memorex (or e.m.i.).
> it must've been quite a kick up the arse for the moodies when "court" came
> out. discuss.
>
> duncan/400nr1098- sort of hoping there'll be an ian anderson flute set one
> day, and a pablo casals cello while we're about it. or jack bruce. jack
bruce

> cello. and andy mackay saxophone. ah yes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session 
keyboard wizard was brought in?

Nope!

fd

Hear!

We should not forget that Ian Anderson if not invented his technique then at
least invented
his technique in the context of rock, and so much that his style of blowing
with the voice is
a signature flute sound. No matter what purists say.

Frank
  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
  Fra: ferrograph@... [mailto:ferrograph@...]
  Sendt: 15. maj 2002 12:03
  Til: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
  Emne: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment


  << Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
  should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
  licensed... >>

  picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
  damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
  across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up
wrong,
  with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them.