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Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by JS

The main source of my puzzlement has been the attack on the upper-register notes - it has a lot of the same feel as the way the initial attack on the tapes comes in, and I even hear a couple of places that sound like blurred notes, not lifting off one finger before pressing the next key. Could this have been overdubbed, perhaps? (Either keyboard or flute overdubbing could explain either of those, and believe me, I've listened to this thing at least a hundred times just this week.)

Jon E Salley
MiloJohnson@...
M400 #886
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

In a message dated 5/14/02 4:30:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jonesalley@... writes:


Also, I have been working on recreating "Nights in White Satin" for MY
rehearsal tomorrow night, and have been listening to the original with the
ear microscopes the last few weeks. The more I listen, the more I think the
flute solo which I had always assumed was Ray's work, is instead Mr. Pinder.


Although it was not reflected in Mike's interview in the book, a quick reference back to my tapes of the original conversations (in toto) reveal that it was, in fact, Ray's work. Listen again to the track, and notice the variations in intonation -- Mike would have had to do some intricate pitch-bending work to accomplish this, as opposed to playing a flute with a poor embouchure. Besides, being a woodwind/flute player (as opposed to being a flautist), I can attest to this. Ricky and Vicky B., I'm sure you would concur.

Frank Samagaio
M400 #908

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Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by Rick Blechta

JS wrote:

The main source of my puzzlement has been the attack on the
upper-register notes - it has a lot of the same feel as the way
the initial attack on the tapes comes in, and I even hear a couple of
places that sound like blurred notes, not lifting off one
finger before pressing the next key. Could this have been
overdubbed, perhaps? (Either keyboard or flute overdubbing
could explain either of those, and believe me, I've listened to this
thing at least a hundred times just this week.)
Jon E Salley

John, the reason the solo sounds that way does is that Ray What'sisname
is doing about everything wrong that he could and
still get a bit of sound out. His embouchure is way too wide and the
airstream unfocused (hence the breathy tone), he isn't
tonguing correctly nor supporting sufficiently (what you're hearing on
the upper register notes) and he's using at least two
incorrect fingerings as far as I can tell which is another reason the
intonation is spotty. He also held the flute wrong, played
hunched over and took the air into the upper part of his lungs.

Other than that, it's a truly breathtaking performance.

Rick

PS Flute is probably the worst-played instrument in rock and roll-dom.
Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
licensed...

Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by JS

I'm sorry, I've said too much already, please, for god's sake, just forget
you heard anything about them, if I told you any more I'd be immediately
silenc

Jon E Salley
MiloJohnson@...
M400 #886



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Snyder" <bob.snyder@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment


> JS wrote:
>
> > Also, I have been working on recreating "Nights in White Satin" for MY
> > rehearsal tomorrow night, and have been listening to the original with
the
> > ear microscopes the last few weeks. The more I listen, the more I think
the
> > flute solo which I had always assumed was Ray's work, is instead Mr.
Pinder.
> > Any takers?
>
> I'll bite. What *are* ear microscopes? And were you using them
> when you listened to Daniel?
>
> Bob S.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by ferrograph@aol.com

<< Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
licensed... >>

picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up wrong,
with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would the
world really be a better place without tull?
I still mourn the passing of the monsoon bassoon, one of london's brightest
new-prog hopefuls of the last decade. they managed (or sarah did) to exhibit
flute, sax and sarah's own rather delicate singing through some of the most
indifferently constructed and operated p.a. systems I've ever.... (&c &c). I
know that the rock-flautist's duff choice of musical setting is hardly a
defence, but it's pretty brave all the same. even a triangle player (an
equilateralist?) can hit his thing harder if he needs to.
and there are some dodgy flautists outside rock too- that james galway, for a
start. for god's sake, stop fidgeting man! just because you're irish doesn't
mean you can arse about and be mischievous *all* the time. (oh- it does?
where do I sign?)
my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things
flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those
rules.

personally, I quite like a bit of expression to creep in by way of breathing
noises, breathing where you think you should and not where the teacher says
the composer meant you to, clanking of teeth or microphone, waving the thing
in the air and brandishing it like a magic wand or cheerleader's baton.
without all that, you'd have little more than a wobbly sine wave- may as well
get an ondes martenot.

of course, what sets *our* flute apart, and even "cloth-ears" salley has
noticed this :-), is that it's possible to play for hours without breathing
and occasionally more than one note at a time. in fact, it's quite hard not
to. I reckon that pinder may have had a crack at the solo and then
ray-what's-his-face, "the gay waiter" (per the prog rock top 10 tv show I
mentioned passim), repeated the line on real plumbing. it's always surprised
me how little 'tron there is in "nights" when you listen really hard. I mean,
obviously it's there, but the flute isn't 'tron, and quite a lot of the rest
of the arrangement is "real", not memorex (or e.m.i.).
it must've been quite a kick up the arse for the moodies when "court" came
out. discuss.

duncan/400nr1098- sort of hoping there'll be an ian anderson flute set one
day, and a pablo casals cello while we're about it. or jack bruce. jack bruce
cello. and andy mackay saxophone. ah yes.

Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by Rick Blechta

ferrograph@... wrote:

> << Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
> should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
> licensed... >>
>
> picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
> damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
> across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up wrong,
> with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would the
> world really be a better place without tull?

Well, I don't think I'm being too picky. Between my wife and myself, we've
taught well over 700 people how to play flute (she currently has 43 students),
so I think we have a pretty good idea of what a flute can and cannot do. True,
it is a delicate instrument in the face of a wall of Marshalls, but one can
always use a headjoint cork pick-up and run the flute through one's own Marshall
stack if you want to compete.

The problem with flute is that you actually need a fair bit of study to make a
nice sound, and most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of
a whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're doing,
so off they go.

Also, I don't know what kind of teachers you had, but all of mine taught me that
I should breathe where the music dictates and that's always fairly clear if you
pay attention to it. Luckily, I never had a teacher who was pedantic about where
to breathe without explaining why. If I didn't agree, then I didn't do it and I
explained why.

There is never a reason to play an instrument badly unless you're happy sounding
bad in which case you have to take your lumps if you do it in public. I know
what a good flutist can sound like in a rock band because I worked with one of
the best. He could do all the Ian Anderson humming crap, knew where to breath,
had an excellent sound, and by God, he played in tune. Why? Because he took the
time to learn how to play flute correctly.

As for Galway, I can't stand the man (a total boor. I've met him) and he really
doesn't try very hard to make music anymore, but you could NEVER call him a bad
flutist if you know anything. You don't get a job in one of the top orchestras
in the world (Berlin Phil) if you can't play. The man CAN flat out play the
instrument--when he wants to. Now as for being a musician, he stopped doing that
when he became a "personality". Sad, but it happens.

Rick

Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by ceccles_ca

--- In Mellotronists@y..., Rick Blechta <rick@r...> wrote:
"...most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of a
whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're
doing..."

The point is... A lot of our favorite tunes with flute wouldn't have
been better songs if played by a great flautist. Songs like "Timothy
Leary", "The Actor","Are You Sitting Comfortably","Thick as a
Brick","Firth of Fifth".... None of this material would have
benefited if a "great session Flautist" had been brought in. (IMHO).

Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session
keyboard wizard was brought in?

Clay

Re: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by fdoddy@aol.com

my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things
flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those
rules.

Ah yes, but the trained flutists break the rules better than the untrained.

fd

Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-15 by Rick Blechta

Well, Clay, you've got two problems here. One is that Ray Thomas is a bad
flutist. Ian Anderson was not bad. Gabriel, well...he put on a hell of a
show. Would these songs have benefited from a better flutist? Have you heard
the Genesis Revisited or Hackett's Tokyo Tapes stuff? Ian McD makes a HUGE
difference to the Genesis songs.

In 'ITWOP', 'Epitaph' and the 'Rain Song', the keyboard parts are not
difficult and are played VERY well. Just because you're a great session
player doesn't mean you have to race all over the damn instrument. As a
matter of fact, the players most in demand are the ones who keep it simple
(Benmont Tench, anyone?). On the other hand, the flute pieces you mentioned
are simple (with the exception of 'Thick as a Brick') and are played poorly.

Don't confuse good playing with difficult playing. Many of the best pieces
are simple to play, but nonetheless deserve to be played well.

Rick

PS Did I mention that Ray Thomas is a bad flutist?

ceccles_ca wrote:

> --- In Mellotronists@y..., Rick Blechta <rick@r...> wrote:
> "...most rock players (especially) figure if that can make a bit of a
> whistle and wiggle their fingers around a bit, they know what they're
> doing..."
>
> The point is... A lot of our favorite tunes with flute wouldn't have
> been better songs if played by a great flautist. Songs like "Timothy
> Leary", "The Actor","Are You Sitting Comfortably","Thick as a
> Brick","Firth of Fifth".... None of this material would have
> benefited if a "great session Flautist" had been brought in. (IMHO).
>
> Would "ITWOP", "Epitaph" or "The Rain Song" been better if a session
> keyboard wizard was brought in?
>
> Clay

Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-16 by Paul Tillotson

"March 26 -1969
Justin Hayward, Graham Edge and Tony Clark are impressed. Prospective UK
tour by the Moodies with King Crimson in support.
The Moodies dropped the idea shortly afterwords. David Enthoven found the
reason from Graham after altering his state of consciousness one evening:
King Crimson were simply too strong."
RF.
Thus quoth Master Fripp in the insert bit to The Young Persons' Guide to
King Crimson.
Discuss further, but it does sorta say a lot.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ferrograph@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment


> << Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
> should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
> licensed... >>
>
> picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
> damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
> across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up
wrong,
> with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them. and would
the
> world really be a better place without tull?
> I still mourn the passing of the monsoon bassoon, one of london's
brightest
> new-prog hopefuls of the last decade. they managed (or sarah did) to
exhibit
> flute, sax and sarah's own rather delicate singing through some of the
most
> indifferently constructed and operated p.a. systems I've ever.... (&c &c).
I
> know that the rock-flautist's duff choice of musical setting is hardly a
> defence, but it's pretty brave all the same. even a triangle player (an
> equilateralist?) can hit his thing harder if he needs to.
> and there are some dodgy flautists outside rock too- that james galway,
for a
> start. for god's sake, stop fidgeting man! just because you're irish
doesn't
> mean you can arse about and be mischievous *all* the time. (oh- it does?
> where do I sign?)
> my mother taught about seven flautists so I know a bit about the things
> flute-players are and are not supposed to do, and frankly, fuck all those
> rules.
>
> personally, I quite like a bit of expression to creep in by way of
breathing
> noises, breathing where you think you should and not where the teacher
says
> the composer meant you to, clanking of teeth or microphone, waving the
thing
> in the air and brandishing it like a magic wand or cheerleader's baton.
> without all that, you'd have little more than a wobbly sine wave- may as
well
> get an ondes martenot.
>
> of course, what sets *our* flute apart, and even "cloth-ears" salley has
> noticed this :-), is that it's possible to play for hours without
breathing
> and occasionally more than one note at a time. in fact, it's quite hard
not
> to. I reckon that pinder may have had a crack at the solo and then
> ray-what's-his-face, "the gay waiter" (per the prog rock top 10 tv show I
> mentioned passim), repeated the line on real plumbing. it's always
surprised
> me how little 'tron there is in "nights" when you listen really hard. I
mean,
> obviously it's there, but the flute isn't 'tron, and quite a lot of the
rest
> of the arrangement is "real", not memorex (or e.m.i.).
> it must've been quite a kick up the arse for the moodies when "court" came
> out. discuss.
>
> duncan/400nr1098- sort of hoping there'll be an ian anderson flute set one
> day, and a pablo casals cello while we're about it. or jack bruce. jack
bruce
> cello. and andy mackay saxophone. ah yes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

SV: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

2002-05-17 by Ivens de Carvalho

Hear!
We should not forget that Ian Anderson if not invented his technique then at least invented
his technique in the context of rock, and so much that his style of blowing with the voice is
a signature flute sound. No matter what purists say.
Frank
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: ferrograph@... [mailto:ferrograph@...]
Sendt: 15. maj 2002 12:03
Til: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: Fw: Fw: [Mellotronists] duh moment

<< Other than Ian McDonald and Mel Collins, I think it
should generally be banned. Or maybe rock flute players could be
licensed... >>

picky picky picky. most rock flute players I've heard are trying their
damndest to retain some delicacy in the face of overwhelming odds; blowing
across the end of a foot-and-a-half of tubing, nearly always miked up wrong,
with a wall of marshalls (or whatever) a few feet behind them.