Mellotronists

saw The Musical Box (Genesis cover band) here in Oberhausen, Germany
yesterday night. If you liked Genesis back 30 years ago, go see this band
when you have a chance. I couldn't believe how good they were, and how
perfectly they did the Selling England show. I knew from a video that this
guy who does Peter Gabriel was pretty good at it - what I didn't expect was
that the guy who plays Phil Collins was even better - not just his drumming
but even his voice when he sang was so close to the original that I couldn't
tell the difference. And yes, they had a tron of course, played masterfully.
i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!
= michael peters
= www.michaelpeters.de

I agree they are good but when I saw them here in Sheffield earlier 
this year they didn't have a real tron. Just a white painted box made 
to look like a tron but with a sampler inside! He magically played 
flutes, violins. brass and choir without a tape frame change. Overall 
the thing sounded quite good but I have yet to see anyone get the 
intro to Watcher to sound anything like it's being played on some 
cheese box! Can any of you guys with the MkII's actually get that 
immense "Genesis Live" watcher sound?
John
M300#005

To:             	<Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
From:           	"Michael Peters" <mpeters@...>
Date sent:      	Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:15:57 +0200

Subject:        	[Mellotronists] musical box

> saw The Musical Box (Genesis cover band) here in Oberhausen, Germany
> yesterday night. If you liked Genesis back 30 years ago, go see this band
> when you have a chance. I couldn't believe how good they were, and how
> perfectly they did the Selling England show. I knew from a video that this
> guy who does Peter Gabriel was pretty good at it - what I didn't expect was
> that the guy who plays Phil Collins was even better - not just his drumming
> but even his voice when he sang was so close to the original that I couldn't
> tell the difference. And yes, they had a tron of course, played masterfully.
> i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!
> = michael peters
> = www.michaelpeters.de
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

-----Original Message-----

From: Michael Peters [mailto:mpeters@...]
Sent: 17 October 2003 09:16
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Mellotronists] musical box


Michael


saw The Musical Box (Genesis cover band) here in Oberhausen, Germany
yesterday night. If you liked Genesis back 30 years ago, go see this band
when you have a chance. I couldn't believe how good they were, and how
perfectly they did the Selling England show. I knew from a video that this
guy who does Peter Gabriel was pretty good at it - what I didn't expect was
that the guy who plays Phil Collins was even better - not just his drumming
but even his voice when he sang was so close to the original that I couldn't
tell the difference. And yes, they had a tron of course, played masterfully.


As I said recently (and as John has just said), it's a sampler mounted in a
Mellotron-shaped box. So you didn't think they gave a lifeless, soulless
'performance'? More wooden than an M400 cabinet.

Andy T.

Gee Andy, I guess following through on your thought, no band should 
ever do cover tunes, either, unless they're going to rearrange them. 
Have you considered that maybe TMB gave a bad performance the night you 
saw them?

I've seen TMB two times now and was impressed both times. Yes, they are 
giving a performance, but you might get more out of it if you think of 
it as a "play" rather than as a concert. Did you ever actually see 
Genesis perform when Gabriel was with them? I saw them do their Foxtrot 
show in Montreal (think it was in early '72) and I have to tell you 
that the performance was not all that good. There were two rather large 
gaffs and Banks and Hackett seemed particularly disinterested that 
night. I figured that they just weren't "on" that night, but didn't 
write them off out of hand, because several people whose opinion I 
respected had told me they were quite extraordinary.

Good bands can have bad nights. And yes, Andy, they do play all the 
stuff that's coming out of the sound system. If Pierre was online, he 
would tell you the same thing. As a matter of fact, he was rather 
insulted when I mentioned to him that you thought some of the playing 
was faked. I know flute playing (you mentioned at the time you saw them 
that you thought the guy was playing over a pre-recorded part) and he 
was fingering the correct notes. The only part left was blowing into 
the flute to make a sound. That's the easy part. Yes, he is a pretty 
appalling flute player, but then, so was Gabriel.

Sorry to sound off at you, but I believe you're being rather unfair. 
Peter Gabriel liked TMB when he saw them in London last year.

Just my two cents.

Rick

On Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 09:31 AM, Andy Thompson wrote:

>
> As I said recently (and as John has just said), it's a sampler mounted 
> in a
> Mellotron-shaped box. So you didn't think they gave a lifeless, 
> soulless
> 'performance'? More wooden than an M400 cabinet.
>
> Andy T.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Blechta [mailto:rick@...]
Sent: 18 October 2003 15:45
To: Mellotronist's List List
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] musical box

Hi Rick

Gee Andy, I guess following through on your thought, no band should ever do cover tunes, either, unless they're going to rearrange them. Have you considered that maybe TMB gave a bad performance the night you saw them?

I seem to irritate people whenever I comment adversely on TMB - thing is, I used to work for ReGenesis, who played the material with exceptional vigour, night after night. Maybe it wasn't as 100% 'accurate' as TMB, but it was a great deal of fun! Maybe TMB had an 'off' night, and yes, I know Genesis were infamous for having them!

I've seen TMB two times now and was impressed both times. Yes, they are giving a performance, but you might get more out of it if you think of it as a "play" rather than as a concert.

;

I did actually approach the (wildly overpriced) gig with that in mind, but was still disappointed!

Did you ever actually see Genesis perform when Gabriel was with them?

I was 13 when he left, with no older brothers/cousins etc.to take me to stuff. The first time I saw a band live was in '77.

Good bands can have bad nights. And yes, Andy, they do play all the stuff that's coming out of the sound system. If Pierre was online, he would tell you the same thing. As a matter of fact, he was rather insulted when I mentioned to him that you thought some of the playing was faked. I know flute playing (you mentioned at the time you saw them that you thought the guy was playing over a pre-recorded part) and he was fingering the correct notes. The only part left was blowing into the flute to make a sound. That's the easy part. Yes, he is a pretty appalling flute player, but then, so was Gabriel.

He certainly was. Trouble is, it seemed so lifeless - the piano parts were all far too loud, and had a 'sequenced' feel about them, although it could just have been the mix. No offence to Pierre - I know he used to play everything. Oh, and that's another point - I don't get why they insist on playing the studio parts live - Genesis didn't... Their famed 'authenticity' was severely compromised when they had two (lead) guitarists and keyboard players, although Genesis always managed with just one of each.

Sorry to sound off at you, but I believe you're being rather unfair. Peter Gabriel liked TMB when he saw them in London last year.

So I heard - Hackett also got up and played with them. I'm afraid I found the singer's attempt at an upper-class English accent unintentionally hilarious - coming from a French speaker, the resulting accent clash was a bit grim, and the most annoying thing was his slavish adherence to little physical 'Gabrielisms' that he'd obviously learnt from videos. Something that Gabriel may have only ever done once has become part of their stage show, and some of the time he appeared to be waiting for his cue to perform the next one. Maybe their gigs should be approached more as a play than a concert, but I'm afraid where live music's concerned, I prefer gigs.

They seem to be doing very well, playing bigger gigs here than any of the homegrown tributes, but despite most of the audience's hysteria, I wasn't the only person who was less than impressed. Anyway, horses for courses, but whenever I see people raving about their performance, I always feel compelled to try to balance the books slightly. Sorry!

Andy T.

By that logic, then you should also feel that there should be no 
performances of the great classical music through history, or the 
staging of spectacles like the Rites of Spring, Mozart's operas, or 
countless other wonderful pieces.  The whole "cover band" argument is 
specious.  Music has had a long tradition of performers with the goal 
of striving to recreate a performance or a composition with exactly 
the same nuance each time they play it.  Don't denigrate what they do 
simply because they didn't write the music, just accept that it is a 
different type of musical expression that is valid in its own way. If 
they happen to suck at it, that's an entirely different story...

Jon E Salley
M400 #886

> Yeah - 
>  tribute bands are just giving us commodified museum exhibits of 
past culture.

> 
> If Genesis had done that in the first place, 
> where would we be?
> 
> It doesn't matter have slavishly they try to imitate
> the original in terms of musical and visual form - 
> what they can never imitate is the fact that the 
> original was, erm, original - 5 blokes in a band
> striving to do something new and exciting.

Classical music is generally not written to be
performed by the composer - he gets an orchestra
to do that, who all dress like shop mannekins and
are trained so that they reliably reproduce somebody
else's dots on a page without colouring it with their own ideas.

This is completely different to the werld of popular music,
where we are as much interested in who the performer
is as to what they sound like - what they look like,
what their personality is.
At its best, pop music is about how to live your entire life,
it's about individuality and personality.
It absolutely makes a difference who is on that stage,
and how 'for real' they are.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jonesalley" <jonesalley@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: musical box


> By that logic, then you should also feel that there should be
no
> performances of the great classical music through history, or
the
> staging of spectacles like the Rites of Spring, Mozart's
operas, or
> countless other wonderful pieces.  The whole "cover band"
argument is
> specious.  Music has had a long tradition of performers with
the goal
> of striving to recreate a performance or a composition with
exactly
> the same nuance each time they play it.  Don't denigrate what
they do
> simply because they didn't write the music, just accept that it
is a
> different type of musical expression that is valid in its own
way. If
> they happen to suck at it, that's an entirely different
story...
>
> Jon E Salley
> M400 #886
>
> > Yeah -
> >  tribute bands are just giving us commodified museum exhibits
of
> past culture.
> >
> > If Genesis had done that in the first place,
> > where would we be?
> >
> > It doesn't matter have slavishly they try to imitate
> > the original in terms of musical and visual form -
> > what they can never imitate is the fact that the
> > original was, erm, original - 5 blokes in a band
> > striving to do something new and exciting.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>
>
>

I am sincerely not trying to insult you, but you really couldn't have 
missed the point of my post more if you had deliberately tried to.  
And, the sad fact is that pop music at its best is exceedingly rare.

Jon E Salley
M400 #886


--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <feline1@f...> 
wrote:

> Classical music is generally not written to be
> performed by the composer - he gets an orchestra
> to do that, who all dress like shop mannekins and
> are trained so that they reliably reproduce somebody
> else's dots on a page without colouring it with their own ideas.
> 
> This is completely different to the werld of popular music,
> where we are as much interested in who the performer
> is as to what they sound like - what they look like,
> what their personality is.
> At its best, pop music is about how to live your entire life,
> it's about individuality and personality.
> It absolutely makes a difference who is on that stage,
> and how 'for real' they are.

Yeah, but what if you never had the chance to see Genesis live? (By the 
way, did you?) What those who never saw them don't realize was that the 
music was only part of the show. Yes, I would rather see/hear Genesis 
do this material, but that ain't gonna happen. Both my sons (in their 
20s) wanted to see what this band was like, so I took them to see TMB. 
THEN, all the stuff I'd been blathering on about all these years made 
sense to them. They still thought it was really weird...

The worst part of the whole thing was that my eldest was doing security 
at the Molson Amphitheater here in Tronto this summer and got to talk 
with Gabriel for about 15 minutes. Guess what they talked about?

Even though I don't agree with you, David, thanks for joining in on the 
conversation!

Cheers!

Rick

On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 05:24 PM, David Davis wrote:

> Yeah -
>  tribute bands are just giving us commodified museum exhibits of past 
> culture.
>  
> If Genesis had done that in the first place,
> where would we be?
>  
> It doesn't matter have slavishly they try to imitate
> the original in terms of musical and visual form -
> what they can never imitate is the fact that the
> original was, erm, original - 5 blokes in a band
> striving to do something new and exciting.

this is fascinating, this debate. I wonder how many of our favourite 
musicians secretly harbour a desire to have their works repeated in performance with 
this kind of attention to detail, and how many others would be grateful for any 
kind of attention at all, and would be more tolerant of the kinds of 
liberties y'r karajans and bernsteins have taken over the years with the great 
symphonies. 
was gabriel taken with seeing his own image on TMB's stage, or was he 
listening to the performance? he's a vain get these days, so I suspect the former. 
but what's more important is what TMD and others mean to the legion of genesis 
fans whom he deserted before they had a chance to see him in that context. 
plainly andy's opinion is different, but this may be because of prolonged exposure 
to regenesis' take on the charterhouse lads' work, and a few seasons working 
with bands producing original works and not covers.
I am reminded again of the simpsons ep wherein the moody blues are supporting 
their own tribute band in vegas, the knights in white satin.
arse- gotta go. there's a docco about delia derbyshire on bbc4. pinup of 
mine, y'understand.

d/1098

>
>
> On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 07:55  am, ferrograph@... wrote:
>>
>> arse- gotta go. there's a docco about delia derbyshire on bbc4. pinup 
>> of
>> mine, y'understand.
>
> I saw her first!
>
> C
>

A point of greater import than immediately obvious.  Is there anyone 
here who would not feel thoroughly honored and flattered that their 
music so moved someone that they would go to tremendous pains to be 
able to reproduce it and flavor it with their own sensibilities?  
Isn't that WHY we still have the music of the great composers with us 
today?  Does anyone really think that the typical pop ENTERTAINMENT 
of today will be remembered in the coming centuries as great MUSIC?  
If the integrity of one's music is based upon fashion sense and 
personality, then that music is probably pretty vapid.  This is meant 
as a general observation, not directed at any specific artist.  We 
all have to follow whatever muse we have, but we owe it to MUSIC to 
not blur the line between composition and entertainment.

Jon E Salley
M400 #886



I wonder how many of our favourite 
> musicians secretly harbour a desire to have their works repeated in 
performance with 
> this kind of attention to detail, and how many others would be 
grateful for any 
> kind of attention at all, and would be more tolerant of the kinds 
of 
> liberties y'r karajans and bernsteins have taken over the years 
with the great 
> symphonies.

And for anyone who appreciates electronic music and doesn't know who Delia Derbyshire is, see here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0%2C3604%2C518008%2C00.html

MSB


----- Original Message ----- 

From: <ferrograph@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: musical box


> arse- gotta go. there's a docco about delia derbyshire on bbc4. pinup of 
> mine, y'understand.
> 
> d/1098
>

> From: Rick Blechta <rick@...>
   > Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:45:13 -0400
   > 
   > As a matter of fact, he was rather insulted when I mentioned to
   > him that you thought some of the playing was faked. 

Huh?  The guy is playing a digital sampling keyboard hidden inside a
fake Mellotron cabinet, and yet he's offended that folks think that
some of the playing is faked?

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

Don,

I should have made it clearer that Pierre was the original keyboard 
player in the band and has not played with TMB for a long time. He 
carried two 400s when he was with them. They wanted him to use his 
MkII, as well, but he (rightly) refused since it's in almost mint 
condition. When he left the band, it was decided to move to a sampler 
simply because no one had the ability to keep the mellotrons humming 
under road conditions and they would also had to have carried way too 
many of them to do the various shows properly.

Also, by your thinking, would everyone else in the band have to be 
using exactly the same equipment as Genesis used. There's a big 
difference between having real instruments but faking the playing 
because you aren't good enough, and have to use something out of 
expediency, but being able to play the shit out of the music, which the 
present TMB keyboard player does.

That being said, I wish they did have a real mellotron on stage...

Rick

On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 05:07 AM, Don Tillman wrote:

>    > From: Rick Blechta <rick@...>
>    > Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:45:13 -0400
>    >
>    > As a matter of fact, he was rather insulted when I mentioned to
>    > him that you thought some of the playing was faked.
>
> Huh?  The guy is playing a digital sampling keyboard hidden inside a
> fake Mellotron cabinet, and yet he's offended that folks think that
> some of the playing is faked?
>
>   -- Don
>
> --
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don@...
> http://www.till.com
>
>
<image.tiff>

>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Ya know, the way those "King Crimson" guys messed up Holst's 
"Mars".  Butchered, fried, sauteed, and simmered.  Unlistenable!

What's next?  A disco version of Beethoven's Fifth?

Harumph!!  Pox on them all!!

...kl...M400 #805, and your point is...?

* Ken Leonard - Web Table of Contents:  http://www.kleonard.com
* Get Outdoors New England:  http://www.GONewEngland.org
 >> Mystery writer Rick Blechta Shoots Straight in the Dark:
 >>   http://www.rickblechta.com/Pages/SSitD.html -> Special Promotion!

Well don't worry y'all,
I'm not that easy to insult,
and moreover, having a chat about these kind
of things is precisely why I subscribe to this list..

BUT ANYWAY,
I don't really mind what yer point is,
MY POINT is that, yet again, "The Musical Box"
are playing in London very soon, and my mate
(who like my, loves early Genesis, and never got
to see them live, cos we weren't even BORN until
1973!) is trying to persaude me to go and see them...
...but I'm just not that fussed, cos I know that all
I'll see is some overly-competant musicians
replicating sthg else from years ago.

cf.  If I went to see a Sex Pistols tribute band,
where some ginger margerined nutbag was faithfully
replicating John Lydon's every snarl and spit,
I would not find it very exciting, cos I'd know that
John Lydon was genuinely just behaving like that
cos he was angry and a mentalist,
not because he'd carefully copied something someone
else had done 20 years ago.

DAVID

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jonesalley" <jonesalley@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:56 PM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: musical box


> I am sincerely not trying to insult you, but you really
couldn't have
> missed the point of my post more if you had deliberately tried
to.
> And, the sad fact is that pop music at its best is exceedingly
rare.
>
> Jon E Salley
> M400 #886
>
>
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis"
<feline1@f...>
> wrote:
> > Classical music is generally not written to be
> > performed by the composer - he gets an orchestra
> > to do that, who all dress like shop mannekins and
> > are trained so that they reliably reproduce somebody
> > else's dots on a page without colouring it with their own
ideas.
> >
> > This is completely different to the werld of popular music,
> > where we are as much interested in who the performer
> > is as to what they sound like - what they look like,
> > what their personality is.
> > At its best, pop music is about how to live your entire life,
> > it's about individuality and personality.
> > It absolutely makes a difference who is on that stage,
> > and how 'for real' they are.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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>

----- Original Message -----

> From: Rick Blechta <rick@...>
   > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:44:21 -0400
   > 
   > Also, by your thinking, would everyone else in the band have to
   > be using exactly the same equipment as Genesis used. 

Don't they, pretty much?  

Or is the guitarist really playing a plastic toy guitar behind a
cardboard cutout of a Les Paul?  :-)

   > There's a big difference between having real instruments but
   > faking the playing because you aren't good enough, and have to
   > use something out of expediency, but being able to play the shit
   > out of the music, which the present TMB keyboard player does.

If he simply played a digital sampler keyboard that would be
expediency.  But since he built a fake Mellotron, he shouldn't be
surprised if music fans suspect other forms of fakery.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

> From: "David Davis" <feline1@...>
   > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:58:37 +0100
   > 
   > Are you seriously expectingly me to believe that if the 3rd
   > trombone player on the left suddenly yelled "Hey mr conductor! I
   > think what Bach wrote there was actually a bit crap, I fancy just
   > vamping on a G for 16 bars there", he wouldn't be shown the door
   > pretty sharpish?

This is remarkably close to Bach's Brandenberg Concerto number 3, 
2nd movement.

Bach only wrote two chords for the entire second movement, the rest is
meant to be an improvised harpsichord candenza.  And since it's
actually in G, having the trombone wail over a vamp on G for 16 bars
would be completely reasonable.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

Classical music is generally not written to be
performed by the composer - he gets an orchestra
to do that, who all dress like shop mannekins and
are trained so that they reliably reproduce somebody
else's dots on a page without colouring it with their own ideas.

  Oh yes they do color it with their own "ideas".  It's just that those ideas are not from a macroscopic level ,  as in popular music.  Classical music was once the popular music of the time. (pick a "time". any time).   When Holst debuted "The Planets" (1913 I think) , people danced wildly in the aisles.  Sound familiar?

fd......I've had the most fun in cover bands