Mellotronists

Besides the YES and Rick Wakeman album appearances,can anyone point 
to other prominent displays of Birotron usage? I know T.Dream had 
it...did they use it on any releases?

-----Original Message-----

From: charel196 [mailto:charel196@...]
Sent: 10 October 2003 15:32
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Mellotronists] OT-Birotron


Charles


Besides the YES and Rick Wakeman album appearances,can anyone point
to other prominent displays of Birotron usage?


Three Earthstar albums, Eleni Mandell's 'Wishbone', Minus Infinity's
self-titled effort and Dave Kean's track on 'The Rime of the Ancient
Sampler'.


I know T.Dream had it...did they use it on any releases?


Did they? Hadn't heard that one. Maybe that's what you can hear on side two
of 'Tangram'?

Andy T.

According to an April 1981 interview, Edgar Froese bought one of the first
Birotrons for a Paris tour and found the 8 track cartridges to be
problematic. That and their interest in "electronic envelopes" from
synthesizers at the time made them (Froese/Franke) lose interest in both the
Birotron and Mellotron. So although they had one it's highly doubtful they
recorded with it. At the time they also claimed to own two Mk V's, a 400 and
"50 or 60 sets of tapes".

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Thompson" <andy.thompson@...>
To: "Mellotronists" <mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Mellotronists] OT-Birotron


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: charel196 [mailto:charel196@...]
> Sent: 10 October 2003 15:32
> To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Mellotronists] OT-Birotron
>
>
> Charles
>
>
> Besides the YES and Rick Wakeman album appearances,can anyone point
> to other prominent displays of Birotron usage?
>
>
> Three Earthstar albums, Eleni Mandell's 'Wishbone', Minus Infinity's
> self-titled effort and Dave Kean's track on 'The Rime of the Ancient
> Sampler'.
>
>
> I know T.Dream had it...did they use it on any releases?
>
>
> Did they? Hadn't heard that one. Maybe that's what you can hear on side
two

> of 'Tangram'?
>
> Andy T.
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi All,
At 21:55 14/10/03 -0400, Chris Dale wrote:

>According to an April 1981 interview, Edgar Froese bought one of the first
>Birotrons for a Paris tour

We (Birotronics) actually shipped 3 to them, I'm not sure if any were ever 
paid for.

>  and found the 8 track cartridges to be
>problematic.

They'd have been fine if the design had stuck to Dave Biro's original prototype
but someone had the 'brilliant' idea to make the machine more compact by
mounting the cartridges on their side and using a common drive and head bar.

Sadly no-one had checked the working specs for 8 track cartridges (well
documented in both US standards and British Standards). They are not intended
to be used vertically, and due to being a loop of tape the action of the 
pulling of
tape from the middle of the loop makes the tape wander when in the vertical
position. When used horizontally gravity keeps the tape relatively flat.

Sadly this was not the only problem with them but that's for another time.

Ho hum. Don't you just love hindsight?


>That and their interest in "electronic envelopes" from
>synthesizers at the time made them (Froese/Franke) lose interest in both the
>Birotron and Mellotron.

I think the developments in synths at the time was the death knell for the
Birotron, but the Mellotron had (has?) a much longer history and better
pedigree and seems to have succeeded in retaining a place in contemporary
music.

Hope this OT stuff doesn't offend anyone


 From an occasional poster.







Best Regards,

Nic

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Nic Lewis <nic@t...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> At 21:55 14/10/03 -0400, Chris Dale wrote:
> 
> >According to an April 1981 interview, Edgar Froese bought one of 
the first
> >Birotrons for a Paris tour
> 
> We (Birotronics) actually shipped 3 to them, I'm not sure if any 
were ever 
> paid for.
> 
> >  and found the 8 track cartridges to be
> >problematic.
> 
> They'd have been fine if the design had stuck to Dave Biro's 
original prototype
> but someone had the 'brilliant' idea to make the machine more 
compact by
> mounting the cartridges on their side and using a common drive and 
head bar.
> 
> Sadly no-one had checked the working specs for 8 track cartridges 
(well
> documented in both US standards and British Standards). They are 
not intended
> to be used vertically, and due to being a loop of tape the action 
of the 
> pulling of
> tape from the middle of the loop makes the tape wander when in the 
vertical
> position. When used horizontally gravity keeps the tape relatively 
flat.
> 
> Sadly this was not the only problem with them but that's for 
another time.
> 
> Ho hum. Don't you just love hindsight?
> 
> 
> >That and their interest in "electronic envelopes" from
> >synthesizers at the time made them (Froese/Franke) lose interest 
in both the
> >Birotron and Mellotron.
> 
> I think the developments in synths at the time was the death knell 
for the
> Birotron, but the Mellotron had (has?) a much longer history and 
better
> pedigree and seems to have succeeded in retaining a place in 
contemporary
> music.
> 
> Hope this OT stuff doesn't offend anyone
> 
> 
>  From an occasional poster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Nic

 I always suspected the machine might've worked better if the tapes 
were horizontal.Didn't Mr.Biro actually use trons to make the tape 
loops(2 400s if I recall)? I listened to TORMATO and CRIMINAL RECORD 
intently the other day and they still don't cut through enough to get 
a decent opinion.I have Dave Kean's tune on the tron CD as well but 
it's mixed in with trons and Chamberlin so who can tell what's doing 
what? Maybe I should just loop the Pinder CD samples in my E4K and 
get a close approximation(endless tron notes).

How true. The fidelity of Birotrons is less than that of Mellotrons and
especially Chamberlins, but that's probably due to several things i.e. the
master recordings, and the missing attack of the note, which we kind of
expect from these keyboards. The looping of the tape brings the sound closer
to an Optigan or Orchestron, but there may also be a tape head azimuth
factor as well. Perhaps Nic or Martin/John would know more about that.

Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: OT-Birotron



I listened to TORMATO and CRIMINAL RECORD

> intently the other day and they still don't cut through enough to get
> a decent opinion.I have Dave Kean's tune on the tron CD as well but
> it's mixed in with trons and Chamberlin so who can tell what's doing
> what? >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 23:52 17/10/03 +0000, charel196 wrote:

>  I always suspected the machine might've worked better if the tapes
>were horizontal.

And they were in Dave Biro's prototype.

>Didn't Mr.Biro actually use trons to make the tape
>loops(2 400s if I recall)?

I'm not sure about Dave's originals, I know some later tapes were made
by using two original recordings of instruments of a few seconds each
which were then looped and copied from two recorders to a third tape of
adequate length to transfer to 8 track. The two original loops were put on
decks so that the splices were 180 degrees out of phase and an unfortunate
person had the job of fading between the two onto the longer 'master'.
Not only was this a tedious job, it also resulted in some interesting harmonics
on the resultant 'master' copy.

   I listened to TORMATO and CRIMINAL RECORD
>intently the other day and they still don't cut through enough to get
>a decent opinion.

No, and as usual there's so much going on it's difficult to really pin down the
useage.

>I have Dave Kean's tune on the tron CD as well but
>it's mixed in with trons and Chamberlin so who can tell what's doing
>what? Maybe I should just loop the Pinder CD samples in my E4K and
>get a close approximation(endless tron notes).

Possibly/probably the best bet.


Best Regards,

Nic

At 00:30 18/10/03 -0400, Chris Dale wrote:
>How true. The fidelity of Birotrons is less than that of Mellotrons and
>especially Chamberlins, but that's probably due to several things i.e. the
>master recordings,

see my last posting!

>and the missing attack of the note, which we kind of
>expect from these keyboards.

some work was done to add attack and delay but it was fairly basic.

>The looping of the tape brings the sound closer
>to an Optigan or Orchestron, but there may also be a tape head azimuth
>factor as well.

Because all the heads were mounted on a common bar, azimuth (and other
alignment) adjustments were extremely fiddly, however when the machine
was set up well it could sound pretty good. The sensitivity of the mechanism
did not lend itself to real touring use however. Even with careful roadies. 
Or is
that a contradiction in terms? (Apologies to roadies everywhere. Quickly!)


>Perhaps Nic or Martin/John would know more about that.

I'd be interested to hear other people's views.


Best Regards,

Nic

-----Original Message-----
From: NormLeete@... [mailto:NormLeete@...]
Sent: 20 October 2003 17:40
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: OT-Birotron

Hi Norm

Trivia note: On the YesYears DVD "rockumentary"(their description not mine) there is footage of Wakeman in the studio with two Biros (can't do that with M400s!) stacked as part of his keyboard rig. SO he must have used them in anger at some point...

You can see one stuck on one end of the grand piano in the pics in 'Yesshows'. I had no idea what it was until a year or two back, but having discovered, it's quite obvious.

;

And please can we all stop bickering about the rights and wrongs of playing music written by other people? I know I stuck my two penn'orth in re.TMB, but I'm certainly not anti tribute bands per se, just the ones who either play the material badly (far too many of them), or so precisely that they squeeze all the life out of it. In other words, it's a fine line they walk, and all too few seem to be up to the task. and when it comes down to it, I've found that it's more (artistically) rewarding to play original material, even when you know it's not up to the standard of the 'greats'. All music was new once...

Andy T.