Mellotronists

Hi,

(the Leon Russell post, very interesting) leads me to ask something I've 
wanted to know for a long time, and I don't remember seeing it here. 
There's no direct connection, but I want to know if there is tron (one of 
the strings tapes) on Bob Seger's "Turn the Page"? Sure sounds like it to 
me, though I'm not an expert (and not a tron owner, either).

Also, I just bought "Inhaling Green" by Nick Magnus and it's excellent! 
Very cinematic, sweeping music, and lots of great rock instrumentals. I 
know Mr. Magnus has been on this list, and I wondered whether I was hearing 
his tron on the CD, or samples of his tron. Apologies if this has been 
covered before, but I don't remember that it was.

Thanks in advance for enlightenment...

Bill
________________
William D. Gagliani
http://www.authorsden.com/williamdgagliani
http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/members/WilliamGagliani
  Author of WOLF'S TRAP, a novel coming in 2003 from Yard Dog Press!
  And SHADOWPLAYS (available from http://www.ebooksonthe.net).

On 3/3/03 7:52 AM, William Gagliani wrote:

>(the Leon Russell post, very interesting) leads me to ask something I've 
>wanted to know for a long time, and I don't remember seeing it here. 
>There's no direct connection, but I want to know if there is tron (one of 
>the strings tapes) on Bob Seger's "Turn the Page"? Sure sounds like it to 
>me, though I'm not an expert (and not a tron owner, either).

oh yeah... that's the real deal.  I remember thinking in the 70's when 
this came out: "how did they get that sound?"

>Also, I just bought "Inhaling Green" by Nick Magnus and it's excellent! 
>Very cinematic, sweeping music, and lots of great rock instrumentals. I 
>know Mr. Magnus has been on this list, and I wondered whether I was hearing 
>his tron on the CD, or samples of his tron. Apologies if this has been 
>covered before, but I don't remember that it was.

I asked Nick about this after I got the album, too.  He told me he uses a 
JV1080 w/ an Orchestral expansion and a U220 for the strings along with a 
bit of S770 orchestral samples, and samples of his own tron strings, 
mostly used on "Free the Spirit," "Devil" and Part 3 of "Inhaling Green." 
 It's a great album, I agree!

jim/m400#680

Thanks, Jim! Wow, great info, and quick, too! :-)  Thanks for confirming 
what I always figured about the Seger. Who played keyboards for him at the 
time? I don't own any Seger, though this is such a great song, I wouldn't 
mind having a copy!

About the Magnus album: Just curious, but why use samples at all when 
there's a real tron around? I assume Nick knows what he's doing (!), so 
maybe he just likes the final result, but that's a bit surprising... 
although I suppose the sound's fattened up a lot with that many sources.

Really great stuff on his album, and some of it reminded me a little of 
Alan Parsons' instrumentals from the Project days (as a comparison point), 
and a little bit from the post-Project Parsons/Woolson album Freudiana. I 
particularly loved the bits that sounded a bit like Gregorian chant ... any 
tron there? I know the female voice is real, but what about the males?

Bill

At 08:02 AM 3/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>On 3/3/03 7:52 AM, William Gagliani wrote:
>
> >(the Leon Russell post, very interesting) leads me to ask something I've
> >wanted to know for a long time, and I don't remember seeing it here.
> >There's no direct connection, but I want to know if there is tron (one of
> >the strings tapes) on Bob Seger's "Turn the Page"? Sure sounds like it to
> >me, though I'm not an expert (and not a tron owner, either).
>
>oh yeah... that's the real deal.  I remember thinking in the 70's when
>this came out: "how did they get that sound?"
>
> >Also, I just bought "Inhaling Green" by Nick Magnus and it's excellent!
> >Very cinematic, sweeping music, and lots of great rock instrumentals. I
> >know Mr. Magnus has been on this list, and I wondered whether I was hearing
> >his tron on the CD, or samples of his tron. Apologies if this has been
> >covered before, but I don't remember that it was.
>
>I asked Nick about this after I got the album, too.  He told me he uses a
>JV1080 w/ an Orchestral expansion and a U220 for the strings along with a
>bit of S770 orchestral samples, and samples of his own tron strings,
>mostly used on "Free the Spirit," "Devil" and Part 3 of "Inhaling Green."
>  It's a great album, I agree!
>
>jim/m400#680
________________
William D. Gagliani
http://www.authorsden.com/williamdgagliani
http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/members/WilliamGagliani
  Author of WOLF'S TRAP, a novel coming in 2003 from Yard Dog Press!
  And SHADOWPLAYS (available from http://www.ebooksonthe.net).

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, William Gagliani 
<w.gagliani@m...> wrote:

> particularly loved the bits that sounded a bit like Gregorian 
chant ... any tron there? I know the female voice is real, but what 
about the males?

Nick used the "Spectrasonics - Symphony of Voices" sample libraries.
The choir bits on Inhaling Green all sound very clean to me.  (Clean 
as in not 'tron or 'tron samples).  We all love the 'tron choirs but 
these new digital sample sets are quite amazing.  A layered mix of 
both would keep everyone happy....  (or nobody happy?)

Clay

It might be Robby Robbins you're referring to who played keys for him (Seger).

It also might be a chamberlin and not a mellotron as well.

According to the person I purchased my chamberlin from, the chamberlin belonged to a fellow named Tom Neme (receipts for repairs are abundant!) who had purchased it from Robby Robbins (Seger's keyboard player).

Although he was sure it was used professionally, he didn't know what recordings it was used on, so the only way to ascertain this is scrutiny of liner notes. I believe it's possible since everyone involved was and is local to the area, but apart from said receipts there is no paperwork to back it up. Perhaps some phone calls ;would yield some info.

Turn The Page does sound more like mellotron than chamberlin to my ears though.

Chris

Thanks for confirming what I always figured about the Seger. Who played keyboards for him at the time? I don't own any Seger, though this is such a great song, I wouldn't mind having a copy!

chris.dale@... wrote:
> 
>     It might be Robby Robbins you're referring to who played keys for
>     him (Seger). 
>      
>     It also might be a chamberlin and not a mellotron as well.
>      
>     According to the person I purchased my chamberlin from, the
>     chamberlin belonged to a fellow named Tom Neme (receipts for repairs
>     are abundant!) who had purchased it from Robby Robbins (Seger's
>     keyboard player). 
>      
>     Although he was sure it was used professionally, he didn't know what
>     recordings it was used on, so the only way to ascertain this is
>     scrutiny of liner notes. I believe it's possible since everyone
>     involved was and is local to the area, but apart from said receipts
>     there is no paperwork to back it up. Perhaps some phone calls would
>     yield some info.
>      
>     Turn The Page does sound more like mellotron than chamberlin to my
>     ears though.
>      
>     Chris  
>      
> 
>      
>     Thanks for confirming what I always figured about the Seger. Who
>     played keyboards for him at the time? I don't own any Seger, though
>     this is such a great song, I wouldn't mind having a copy!

"Turn The Page" was written in 1973, first appearing on "Back In '72". 
"Smokin' O.P.'s" came out in 1972.  "Seven" came out in 1974.  Robin 
Robbins is credited with Mellotron on the latter album, but "TTP" is not 
in the track list, so there must be 'tron on one of the other "rock ballad 
with balls" found on it.

Knowing that I had the studio version of "TTP" around somewhere, I went 
digging through some MP3 roms looking for "Back In '72" (released in 
1973), an album not in my wife's Bob Seger collection because it's never 
been legally released on CD.  Sure enough, "Turn The Page" is there, with 
Robbins on keyboards.  So, first mystery solved.  Robbins is the guy. 
He's also the keys player on the "Live Bullet" album from 1976, playing 
piano, organ, clavinet and...Mellotron.  So even though Robbins owned a 
Chamberlin, all of his work with Seger credits him on Mellotron.  This is 
probably erroneous, since it's not likely he'd be playing someone else's 
'tron if he had a chamby of his own.  It's likely that only an afficionado 
would know the difference, or even care enough to "get it right", so I can 
see how he'd get credited with 'tron.

Before I went nosing through my wife's CDs in search of this piece of 
'tron-trivia, I'd have sworn it was Craig Frost handling 'tron on "TTP", 
but he didn't join Seger's band until Grand Funk disbanded in 1977.  I bet 
most people hearing "TTP" [either version], who know a little about 
Seger's band, probably assume it's Craig Frost, simply because of him 
being a high profile guy from a major US hard rock band.  So credit where 
it's due to Mr. Robbins, who did an excellent job both times.

"We have a Mellotron that simulates the sax very well, though...I play 
piano, and the organ player plays a violin-kind-of Mellotron wall, and he 
covers the sax pretty good." (Bob Seger commenting in an early 1975 radio 
interview).  For an fairly extensive disection of this missing album go to 
http://www.segerfile.com/72.html

That breakthrough live album seriously kicks arse from start to finish. 
My wife (a Michigan gal) was in the audience on the first gig of the two 
night stand from which "Live Bullet" was assembled.  Seger in his 
home-town, in front of a rockin' Detroit audience...magic!  It's one of 
her favourites, and the only Seger album I ever bought for myself.
-- 
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
http://systemstheory.net	internet music project
http://thecleanersystem.com	software for dry cleaners
NP: nothing

One more thought about Robin Robbins and the "Mellotron" he played
on "Turn The Page".  He might not have bought the Chamberlin until
after he left the Silver Bullet Band and Craig Frost joined, so it
could well be 'tron, not chamby, on "TTP" [both versions].
-- 
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
http://systemstheory.net	internet music project
http://thecleanersystem.com	software for dry cleaners
NP: nothing

William Gagliani wrote:
> Excellent research, everyone! This is absolutely fascinating. It never 
> even occurred to me that the sax in TTP was tron!

Not so fast my friend!  [See way down below]

> That's because I'm 
> neither an owner nor a musician, I guess.

Mike Dickson is the Systems Theory 'tronlord...I'm just along for the ride!

> (Plus, I didn't see any Seger 
> concerts at the trime -- I just assumed he had a sax player.) Like most 
> laypersons, I tend to forget the huge variety of sounds that have been 
> available on the tron/chamberlin family of instruments.

There are indeed a staggering number of great sounds available for 'trons. 
  Mike uses some great lesser-known sounds on some of our tunes.  If you 
go to Mike's web-site: http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/right.htm you 
can hear a sample of all of these frames, plus have a good chuckle (Mike 
loves to skewer tronheads, especially prog-tronheads).  He has some 
wonderful "Cor Anglais" and monsterous "Steve Hackett" electric guitar on 
"Red Sun Fading", in addition to more obvious 'tron frames like the new 
"Russian Choir" and "Ian McDonald" lute.

<advert>
"Red Sun Fading" [which we think is pretty damn spiffy] can be found on 
the PRC sampler CD [available from your fine on-line proggy music 
distributors], also available as an MP3 d/l at the PRC site I mentioned a 
couple of posts back.
</advert>

> I blame Genesis and Yes!

Get in line!  The only saving grace is that by the time both bands FM 
stadium rocked-out in the 80s they'd stopped using 'trons.

> LOL -- that choir-flute-strings tapeframe is ingrained in my 
> aural memory, but I'm so unused to hearing the other sounds *and 
> recognizing them* that it would be useful if some of you could list 
> (just one or two each) some non-traditional tron sounds found in the 
> more familiar realm of songs that utilize the instrument.

Go to Mike's tron page. You'll be quite surprised at what is available.

> For instance, 
> the fact that TTP includes tron sax as well as the strings really blows 
> me away (I may be easily amused, but still...).

See below for clarification of sax on "TTP".

> It would be great to 
> find out that, say, the tubular bells in Tubular Bells were really tron! 
> (Just kidding, but you know what I mean.) Or if Wakeman's MiniMoogs were 
> really tron samples, LOL. Again, just joshin' -- but I'm going to have 
> to listen to my Rime of the Ancient Sampler CD (yes, I got one) to hear 
> some of the other sounds I'd forgotten.

And there you hit upon the issue of the sounds that catch our ears as 
being obviously 'tron vs. that which is the marvelous "Ancient Sampler" at 
work unbeknownst to most listeners.  Say "this track has Mellotron on it" 
to your average proghead and he is certain to mentally check "3 violins", 
"8 voice choir", "flute" and maybe "mixed brass", in that order, but not 
much more than that.  Maybe "cello" if he's a Tangerine Dream fan.  Which 
is a testament to how ingrained those sounds were to vintage 70s era 
prog-rock.

> Quite the lesson!

Now on to the clarification for "TTP"...

> Bill

To get you really confused, the small sax part on the studio original is 
real, but Alto Reed was a guest on "Back In '72", not becoming a full band 
member until 1975.  To quote directly from http://www.segerfile.com/72.html:

"...The instrumentation is different too: it's the keyboard, not the sax, 
that carries the song in the studio version. The up and down piano chops 
that lead us into the chorus are suggestive of Leon Russell's "Tightwire" 
-- the sax is saved for the very end, and even then, it's not that big a 
deal. Live, of course, the sax is practically the signature element."

With Alto Reed coming on board with the band, the sax part in the live 
version then became "real" instead of "sampled".

"...In fact, for the first three years of playing the song, Seger didn't 
travel with Alto Reed (who was known as Tommy Cartmell at the time), so 
there was no live sax in the song:"

Robin Robbins covered it on Chamberlin/Mellotron [jury still out on what 
he was actually playing live] on the 73, 74 and 75 tours.

"...We have a Mellotron that simulates the sax very well, though...I play 
piano, and the organ player plays a violin-kind-of Mellotron wall, and he 
covers the sax pretty good."

So by the time they actually recorded "Live Bullet", in 1976 the sax part 
[that really stands out on the best known version of the tune] is Reed, 
with Robbins' keys in a supporting role.  It is Seger on piano here, BTW, 
with Robbins on organ and 'tron/chamby.  Not only do the liner notes say 
so, but a quick "who did what at Cobo that night" check with my wife 
confirms this.

Perhaps Chris Dale could find out when Robbins bought and sold his 
Chamberlin?  That would clear up the issue of was it 'tron or chamby that 
he was using during his time with Seger.
-- 
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
http://systemstheory.net	internet music project
http://thecleanersystem.com	software for dry cleaners
NP: nothing

Well, there are a few knowledgable people I could contact about this assuming they haven't moved. I'll post this info as soon as I can get some answers on it.

Some additional information might sway us one way or another : I can tell you that this Chamberlin does have Violins/Cello as well as double sets of Alto/Tenor Saxes on it and that it was made in the early-mid 70's. That would place it in the right time frame. The Chamberlins in those days had lids that needed to be removed with a screwdriver. Late 70's - early 80's Chamberlins have hinged lids like our old friend the EMI 400.

The sax sounds in the Chamberlin are also a much stronger emulation (to my ears anyway) than the Mellotron sax. As a reference for those of you who are not as familiar with Chamberlins - I'm sonically comparing the sax sounds on Bowie's "Low" album to the sax sound in the Moodies "Tuesday Afternoon". Perhaps this is not the best representation of either but I put the difference in tone down to the quality of the original recordings. Lastly, I was specifically told the Chamberlin was used by Seger's band (even though afterwards I tended to believe otherwise and never pursued investigating it.)

Also - this opens up a new can of worms for us --- How often has Chamberlin been mistaken for Mellotron and vice-versa by band members or producers who use these instruments and simply don't care to know what they have? The fact that they share the same violin sound certainly doesn't help matters.

Hey Steven - can you list the Seger albums in question? I'm afraid I don't have any of them.

Thanks

Chris

Perhaps Chris Dale could find out when Robbins bought and sold his
Chamberlin? That would clear up the issue of was it 'tron or chamby that
he was using during his time with Seger.
--
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
http://systemstheory.net internet music project
http://thecleanersystem.com software for dry cleaners
NP: nothing



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